would a br mk1 bg on parcels be common on a branchline?

[sigtech]

Hello everyone, I have searched for this info, on both google and RMWEB but come up with no real answer, hence this question. How common/likely would the appearance of a BR MK1 BG in a parcels train, instead of the more normal ex LMS Stove R/ 50' ex LMS BG at a branch terminus be? Period is circa 1956-1963.

 

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

[chrisf]

It depends on the branch line.  I have seen a photo of an almost brand new BR Mk 1 BG on the Aberaeron branch when the only regular traffic was milk.

 

Chris 

[flyingsignalman]

The Bradford Barton book "Great Western Steam Off The Beaten Track" by Geoffrey F Bannister has photos taken in May 1955 of Pannier 7402 with a mark 1 BG in either crimson and cream or chocolate and cream on the Aberayron branch.

The line had lost its passenger service in 1951 but it served a milk depot at Green Grove until final closure in 1973.

Edited April 27, 2018 by flyingsignalman

[Il Grifone]

in 1955 a Mk I BG would have been in crimson and cream. Only a very few appeared in chocolate and cream in any case.

 

Rule 1 applies here!

[Ravenser]

It depends on the branch line.  I have seen a photo of an almost brand new BR Mk 1 BG on the Aberaeron branch when the only regular traffic was milk.

 

Chris 

 

Quite possibly the BG was there as a brake van for the milk???

 

I understand that in the 1950s and early 1960s the LMR was chronically short of proper parcels vans and made extensive use of XP-rated 12T box vans for parcels traffic until short wheelbase stock was banned from fast trains after an accident (I think the one that destroyed DP2?).

 

(I think this may have been a comment from the Stationmaster, to the effect that the WR was tired of sending out NPCS vans and getting freight wagons back in return)

 

So it's possible but I suspect not at all typical 

[flyingsignalman]

in 1955 a Mk I BG would have been in crimson and cream. Only a very few appeared in chocolate and cream in any case.

 

Rule 1 applies here!

I thought that but wasn't sure from the photos.

 

At the other end of the scale, so to speak, I was given a photo of a maroon Mk1 BG being shunted into the sidings at Port Sunlight for Levers' traffic.

It was taken about 1970 and the photographer told me it was a regular occurrence at that time.

[Steamport Southport]

I read somewhere* that they stopped sending the chocolate and cream BGs to the SR as the Southern kept nicking them for use with Pullmans.   

 

 

 

*On this forum I think

 

 

Jason

[dpgibbons]

Steve - if yours is a typical small country terminus then I doubt that it would generate enough traffic to require a large passenger guards van, let alone a dedicated parcels train. Branch parcels and the odd passenger or milk vans would normally be attached to passenger trains and conveyed to a mainline junction. And for your early BR era, a bogie passenger van on branch service would probably be of pre-BR vintage especially if it was in WR or SR territory. 

 

However there might be a major source of passenger van traffic further up the line requiring a dedicated train that runs to the end of the branch before reversing. Why not work up a backstory for your layout and then devise a timetable to serve the traffic it generates.

[Dunsignalling]

I read somewhere* that they stopped sending the chocolate and cream BGs to the SR as the Southern kept nicking them for use with Pullmans. 

 

 

 

*On this forum I think

 

 

Jason

It was just the one, IIRC and the story I heard was that the WR didn't know where it had gone until the SR asked if they could borrow another (no TOPS in those days).

 

There weren't very many BGs painted into Chocolate and Cream anyway, which presumably explains why they didn't want them going astray.

 

When permitted to revert to "traditional" colours, the Southern really went for it. However, WR policy was to apply chocolate and cream only to new or freshly overhauled Mk.1s and a sprinkling of Hawksworth stock (just sleepers and a couple of BCKs, I think), intended for prestige traffic like named expresses. Hence the limited numbers of BGs.  Obviously, as time went on and they started to use maroon, chocolate/cream vehicles started cropping up in general traffic. 

 

The obvious answer would have been for the SR to paint some of their own BGs to use in the Bournemouth Belle, but (IIRC) they didn't get an allocation of them until 1962/3.

 

SR modellers should therefore avoid running green ones if their chosen era pre-dates that.  

 

John

Edited April 28, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Hello everyone, I have searched for this info, on both google and RMWEB but come up with no real answer, hence this question. How common/likely would the appearance of a BR MK1 BG in a parcels train, instead of the more normal ex LMS Stove R/ 50' ex LMS BG at a branch terminus be? Period is circa 1956-1963.

 

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

If the traffic was sufficient to justify running complete parcels trains, rather than the odd van attached to passenger services, there would be no reason why that should exclude Mk.1 BGs.

 

Branch line parcels trains wouldn't have terminated at the junction with the main line, they could be going anywhere. Ex-LMS and ex-LNE full brakes regularly used to turn up on Southern territory. Ex-GWR BG's were less wide-ranging as many were rostered to specific diagrams and branded accordingly. Oddly, they don't appear to have continued the practice with their Mk1s...... 

 

You don't mention what region you model, so see my previous post for possible livery pitfalls.

 

John

Edited April 28, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[TheSignalEngineer]

Steve - if yours is a typical small country terminus then I doubt that it would generate enough traffic to require a large passenger guards van, let alone a dedicated parcels train. Branch parcels and the odd passenger or milk vans would normally be attached to passenger trains and conveyed to a mainline junction. And for your early BR era, a bogie passenger van on branch service would probably be of pre-BR vintage especially if it was in WR or SR territory.

 

However there might be a major source of passenger van traffic further up the line requiring a dedicated train that runs to the end of the branch before reversing. Why not work up a backstory for your layout and then devise a timetable to serve the traffic it generates.

Although main line rather than a branch the Beldray factory at Bilston which made dustbins, incinerators, ironing boards etc sent out a lot of stuff direct to mail order catalogue customers. This was taken to Snow Hill by the local parcels train.

Also on the South Staffs line the Dudley parcels could turn up with anything from 12T box vans and a goods brake to a mk1 BG.

[dpgibbons]

The popularity of elderly and distinctly foreign Stove Rs on WR milk trains was I believe due to the fact that these trains did not have a through steampipe connection to keep the guard warm. I'm guessing Mk1 BGs were not fitted with a stove.

[sigtech]

Thanks for all your comments guys, - the layout (Sproston) is located in Cheshire somewhere to the North West of Crewe, and has joint ex GWR/LMS running powers, with an offscene junction. The main WR arm of branch to the south west is 17 miles long, with the other, shorter arm connecting to the LM main line and down towards Crewe and London. This is the route the milk train takes.
There is a United Dairies creamery at the terminus, with railborne accesss/private siding, dispatching two trains a day ( each of normally 2 loaded tankers ) bound for the capital. This is the branchlines "raison d'etre" for it being still open.
I have produced a timetable covering all 7 days of the week.( please see my blog 'Sproston' on here ). Trains tend to be short ( only 2-3 coaches ) but frequent, and I think the single line is used almost to capacity...




I have a Stove 'R' for the milk trains, also a 50' ex LMS bogie full brake, and there is an ex SR van 'BY' which works with the fitted seasonal fruit/vegetable trains.
I probably have twice the stock required to run the branch, but for variety was thinking of making up an alternative parcels train consisting of 3x fitted vans with a crimson & cream BR MK1 BG .
My main concern was whether these vehicles would be likely to appear, or if the older pre-nationalisation types would exclusively predominate.
Edited to correct length of ex LMS bogie full brake.
Regards
(SIGTECH)
Steve.

Edited April 28, 2018 by sigtech

[Dunsignalling]

Thanks for all your comments guys, - the layout (Sproston) is located in Cheshire somewhere to the North West of Crewe, and has joint ex GWR/LMS running powers, with an offscene junction. The main WR arm of branch to the south west is 17 miles long, with the other, shorter arm connecting to the LM main line and down towards Crewe and London. This is the route the milk train takes.

There is a United Dairies creamery at the terminus, with railborne accesss/private siding, dispatching two trains a day ( each of normally 2 loaded tankers ) bound for the capital. This is the branchlines "raison d'etre" for it being still open.

I have produced a timetable covering all 7 days of the week.( please see my blog 'Sproston' on here ). Trains tend to be short ( only 2-3 coaches ) but frequent, and I think the single line is used almost to capacity...

 

012.JPG

011.JPG

 

I have a Stove 'R' for the milk trains, also a 40' ex LMS bogie full brake, and there is an ex SR van 'BY' which works with the fitted seasonal fruit/vegetable trains.

I probably have twice the stock required to run the branch, but for variety was thinking of making up an alternative parcels train ( 3x fitted vans )with crimson & cream BR MK1 BG .

My main concern was whether these vehicles would be likely to appear, or if the older pre-nationalisation types would exclusively predominate.

 

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

The beauty of parcels trains is that, in the 1950s, the most unexpected vehicles could and did turn up in the most unlikely places - no need for Rule 1 at all.

 

Bear in mind, also, that Rule 2 states you can never have too many parcels vans............

 

Enjoy

 

John

[Steamport Southport]

Thanks for all your comments guys, - the layout (Sproston) is located in Cheshire somewhere to the North West of Crewe, and has joint ex GWR/LMS running powers, with an offscene junction. 

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

 

 

I read that as obscene junction.

 

   

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Easy answer; it depends.

 

It depends on the branch and it's traffic, as we have seen, and also on the BG.  Some were allocated to specific passenger workings, like the WR chocolate and cream ones, and some to circuit parcels workings; it depended on the choice of the region operating them.  'Pool' BGs, which I am guessing would have been in plain crimson rather than crimson and cream during the pre 1956 period, could and did turn up anywhere that required a BG's accommodation, the requirement being for a BG without specifiying whether it was a BR standard, LMS, LNER, Southern, or GWR one, and of course if corridor connection or guard's accommodation was not required the same job could be done by any of the BR standard or Big Four GUVs and Siphons as well.

 

A BG might be specified on a job because it has fold down shelves, particularly useful for crates of eggs and boxes of newly hatched chicks going cheep, a feature shared with LNER Pigeon Vans and some GWR Siphons.  Uses could be a little more varied than the vehicle was designed for if the 'urgent requirement of the traffic' warranted it, and I once saw a rake of 3 BGs in the bay at Shrewsbury loaded with pigs, something you wanted to stay well upwind of!

 

The point raised about steam heating is valid, and the reason why NPCCS four and six wheeled LMS and LNER vans survived as long as they did.  AFAIK no bogie vans ever had stoves provided, but I am happy to be corrected on this.  Certainly no mk1 had them, though there was an electrically powered food warming cabinet this was hopelessly inadequate, and indeed not designed, for heating even the small guard's compartment.  You could warm a pie in it, but not get it hot enough to boil water.  Many NPCCS vehicles had through steam heating pipes, but milk tanks did not, so steam heating could not be supplied to guards on milk trains unless the van was coupled to the loco, which limited to 20 the number of vehicles marshalled behind it.  

 

But we are talking about main line milk trains here; branch milk was usually either carried as tail traffic on passenger trains or given a freight brake van, which of course had a stove..  The GW had milk vans as well, as may other railways (look at that, a GW fan just admitted that there were other railways) but this is outside my field of knowledge; these carried traffic in churns.  Most of that ceased before WW2 and milk was increasingly carried in tankers after that, but of course the vehicles survived in general parcels use for some time.

 

Basically, if you want to run a mk1 BG on a branch line, go ahead and you don't even have to resort to Rule 1, but avoid WR choc/cream, or Southern Malachite pre-1963.  I would say that crimson/cream is less likely than plain crimson as well.

[The Johnster]

Thanks for all your comments guys, - the layout (Sproston) is located in Cheshire somewhere to the North West of Crewe, and has joint ex GWR/LMS running powers, with an offscene junction. The main WR arm of branch to the south west is 17 miles long, with the other, shorter arm connecting to the LM main line and down towards Crewe and London. This is the route the milk train takes.

There is a United Dairies creamery at the terminus, with railborne accesss/private siding, dispatching two trains a day ( each of normally 2 loaded tankers ) bound for the capital. This is the branchlines "raison d'etre" for it being still open.

I have produced a timetable covering all 7 days of the week.( please see my blog 'Sproston' on here ). Trains tend to be short ( only 2-3 coaches ) but frequent, and I think the single line is used almost to capacity...

 

012.JPG

011.JPG

 

I have a Stove 'R' for the milk trains, also a 40' ex LMS bogie full brake, and there is an ex SR van 'BY' which works with the fitted seasonal fruit/vegetable trains.

I probably have twice the stock required to run the branch, but for variety was thinking of making up an alternative parcels train consisting of 3x fitted vans with a crimson & cream BR MK1 BG .

My main concern was whether these vehicles would be likely to appear, or if the older pre-nationalisation types would exclusively predominate.

 

Regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

Are you sure the LMS 40' van is a full brake, Steve?  If it is the Lima one it does not have a guard's compartment or a stove, and is a GUV.

 

As for prevalence of pre-nat stock, this would be total until the introduction of the mk1s, 1950 IIRC, and of course some lasted until the 80s.  A good deal was built by BR to complete orders pending at Nationalisation, and to satisfy traffic requirements prior to the introduction of mk1 BG, GUV, and CCT vehicles which increasingly appeared during their production runs in the 50s and early 60s, replacing the older NPCCS stock.  Don't be fooled by appearance; some wooden bodied vans such as Southern PMVs and LNER long CCTs were still being built by BR in the early 50s and lasted a good while; GWR Siphon Gs for the newspaper traffic were built new by BR as well.

 

The joy of NPCCS for us modellers is that you can make up a train of amazing variety and livery variation beneath the filth, especially during the BR period.  It did not take long for 'pool' vans to disseminate themselves around the entire system, whatever their origin, and I have no qualms about a Hornby LNER liveried long CCT on my WR South Wales BLT!

[jjnewitt]

Many NPCCS vehicles had through steam heating pipes, but milk tanks did not, so steam heating could not be supplied to guards on milk trains unless the van was coupled to the loco, which limited to 20 the number of vehicles marshalled behind it.   

 

Not true, milk tanks were built with steam heating pipes and many retained them until at least they were no longer needed to be attached to passenger trains. As I understood it in the fifties and sixties you could have a maximum of 6 vehicles behind the brake van. If there was more they had to go in front. Not much good on a Winter's day if you had 7 tanks for Lampeter to be attahced to a passenger train at Carmarthen and no steam heating pipes.

 

Also, I'm fairly sure that some Gresely BGs had stoves fitted though stand to be corrected on this.

 

Justin

[sigtech]

Hello Johnster, the Ex LMS bogie vehicle is 50' long - my mistake!!  it's made by Hornby and finished in maroon - my understanding is that it is a gangwayed full brake ( BG ) - just a bit shorter than a BR MK1 BG...

I've always been doubtful about adding any MK1 stock to the layout,  assuming it to be too new and probably restricted to mainline duties, but after doing a bit of research on the net it seems that the MK1 BG'S were built in large numbers and travelled everywhere - more so as time passed. By 1956-1963 I am assuming they would be reasonably plentiful and well dispersed, and I am considering making an exception and purchasing one - probably BR (MR)  in crimson and cream (  I already have a couple of BR MK1 examples of NPCCS - a BR MK1 CCT  and BR MK1 Horsebox - both  Maroon.

 

regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

Edited April 28, 2018 by sigtech

[The Johnster]

Hello Johnster, the Ex LMS bogie vehicle is 50' long - my mistake!!  it's made by Hornby and finished in maroon - my understanding is that it is a gangwayed full brake ( BG ) - just a bit shorter than a BR MK1 BG...

I've always been doubtful about adding any MK1 stock to the layout,  assuming it to be too new and probably restricted to mainline duties, but after doing a bit of research on the net it seems that the MK1 BG'S were built in large numbers and travelled everywhere - more so as time passed. By 1956-1963 I am assuming they would be reasonably plentiful and well dispersed, and I am considering making an exception and purchasing one - probably BR (MR)  in crimson and cream (  I already have a couple of BR MK1 examples of NPCCS - a BR MK1 CCT  and BR MK1 Horsebox - both  Maroon.

 

regards

(SIGTECH)

Steve.

 

I have one as well, in crim/cream.  50' as opposed to 57' for a BR mk1 BG.  Mk 1 vehicles are fine for any layout mid 50s onwards and can be argued for earlier, but I am not sure when the GUVs and CCTs were introduced; I don't think it was with the first batch.  I'd say you'd be ok with them from about '58, so well within your period.

[Oldddudders]

Perishables. Market garden produce, or even butchered meats in some cases, might well be loaded to a BG if there was substantial regular traffic on your layout. If the traffic was there, BR and predecessors were after it. 

[Steamport Southport]

Not quite the same as it's the modern era.

 

There was something on the TV the other week about a small cake making business in the South West that sends it's cakes to London by HST. Expensive cakes mind you and they were carried in the guards compartment.

 

 

Jason

[TheSignalEngineer]

I have one as well, in crim/cream. 50' as opposed to 57' for a BR mk1 BG. Mk 1 vehicles are fine for any layout mid 50s onwards and can be argued for earlier, but I am not sure when the GUVs and CCTs were introduced; I don't think it was with the first batch. I'd say you'd be ok with them from about '58, so well within your period.

I don't think the Mk1 CCT was built until about 1959/60. Edited April 29, 2018 by TheSignalEngineer

[The Johnster]

When they were built, they were built in volume and rapidly made an impact, so 1960 onwards and they are justified on any layout featuring NPCCS. Again, some were in circuit working, but 'pool' examples were common and turned up anywhere a van of that size was needed.  I believe they also had the fold down shelves.

[sigtech]

Bachmann br mk1 bg duly ordered ( crimson & cream livery ) from Rails of Sheffield, job done...

 

Steve.

(SIGTECH)