Locomotion Models - updates and new coaching stock.

[tetsudofan]

The whole centre unit including wheels, axles, springs etc. slides from side to side.

 

Keith

[Edwardian]

The whole centre unit including wheels, axles, springs etc. slides from side to side.

 

Keith

 

That makes sense, thanks

[jjb1970]

It's one of those odd ironies that although European HO was decades ahead of OO in just about every way (pizza cutters excepted) they also seem to be more pragmatic about accepting compromise to get a good overall look and performance. As well as floating centre axles they retained traction tyres and many D&E models are made over width to get a good body to bogie interface which can still negotiate tight curves.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

 Before we get too embedded in solutions, the standard GNR six wheeler was something like a 22' 7" wb. I doubt that will be unduly troublesome if all three axles have good sideplay. It even obligingly has the W irons for the centre wheelset on the outside of the solebars too.

 

It's one of those odd ironies that although European HO was decades ahead of OO in just about every way (pizza cutters excepted) they also seem to be more pragmatic about accepting compromise to get a good overall look and performance. As well as floating centre axles they retained traction tyres and many D&E models are made over width to get a good body to bogie interface which can still negotiate tight curves.

But we no like in OO. Heljan have teice at least trodden this path, overwidth 47, and the curious plan shape revision to the DP2's ends being the results. Why the UK market is less tolerant of something that passes on the mainland in HO I don't know. More finely developed aesthetic sense in the UK? Seems unlikely...

[Ian Hargrave]

Before we get too embedded in solutions, the standard GNR six wheeler was something like a 22' 7" wb. I doubt that will be unduly troublesome if all three axles have good sideplay. It even obligingly has the W irons for the centre wheelset on the outside of the solebars too.

 

 

But we no like in OO. Heljan have teice at least trodden this path, overwidth 47, and the curious plan shape revision to the DP2's ends being the results. Why the UK market is less tolerant of something that passes on the mainland in HO I don't know. More finely developed aesthetic sense in the UK? Seems unlikely...

As an example that has been around for decades,look at Roco's DB "Convert" six wheeled stock.

[jjb1970]

I still think that on the whole the Heljan compromise for DP2 was a good one as I find the excellent body - bogie interface far more obvious than the necessary compromises to the nose shape and dimensions. But that's just me.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I still think that on the whole the Heljan compromise for DP2 was a good one as I find the excellent body - bogie interface far more obvious than the necessary compromises to the nose shape and dimensions...

 Whereas Bachmann did the same body form correctly on the Class 55 - so it is visibly superior as a model in conformance to the prototype - and can have the correct body/bogie interface if curves of 30" or greater radius are used.

 

For my money it is all down to whether the very small radii of set track curves are accepted as a defining standard for RTR product, or whether they are regarded as an unfortunate compromise, for which an avoiding path is provided.

[it's-er]

The LNER had the largest collection of non-bogie passenger vehicles of any of the Big Four. Among them were the well known GNR inheritance of six wheel types. The full brake the longest lived of the lot, still lurking about the system as service vehicles (that looked like fossils!) when BR's pilot scheme diesels were running. A small selection well promoted should therefore have broad appeal.

 

 Can someone post a link to the kind of coaches in mind here, please?

 

John Storey

[Steamport Southport]

Great Northern 6 wheel carriages?

 

We are talking about these beauties.

 

http://www.vintagecarriagestrust.org/gnr589.htm

 

http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/gnr_no1472.htm

 

http://www.brc-stockbook.co.uk/gnr_no1727.htm

 

 

 

Jason

[gc4946]

I'd suggest GNR 6-wheelers - there are several intact survivors that can be measured up.

 

Moreover, for variety, some were transferred to the Midland & Great Northern.

 

They also lasted well into the 60s in departmental service.

[it's-er]

Many thanks for the links to GNR 6 wheel coaches. However isn't it more likely that what will be announced is a bogie equivalent of the dynamometer coach, so they can use some of their development work for the new coaches yet to be announced? But I'm not familiar with GNR coaches - would there be such a thing as bogie coaches which are a 'simplified' version of the dynamometer car?

 

John S

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

No, because the dynamometer car was the NER's copy of the GWR design. Markedly different from GNR vehicle design in short.

[Steamysandy]

I seem to recall a GN 6 wheel full brake in teak livery sitting at Craigentinny in the early 1970s as seen from my twice daily North Berwick train!

Edited May 13, 2018 by Steamysandy

[Edwardian]

The GNR 6-wheelers that I suspect most people have in mind are relatively modern - probably late 1880s to late 1890s.  These are the familiar types, such as D&S, Mike Trice and Diagram 3D produce(d). These would include  those sent to the MGN, as the GN donated fairly modern coaches (in 1903). The Midland tended to send older ones!  As such, I'm not sure we really need these RTR.

 

For No.1, I suspect somewhat older designs of ECJS 6-wheelers would be more appropriate. For one thing, the slotted splasher was probably filled in as early as 1880, changing No.1's appearance.

 

Still, the 'as preserved' loco, and therefore the model, may not represent exactly No.1's in-service condition at any given time.  I believe that No.1 is preserved with the longer firebox fitted in 1877 and the frames lengthened 8" accordingly. If the boiler conforms to that fitted in 1880, the external dimensions are slightly greater than as built. I suspect that she has deeper frames and a larger trailing wheel than as built, and that these, too, date from 1880. I suspect that 1880 was also when the splasher slots were blanked off, though for some years the backing infill would have been painted black with the rims of the slots lined.  In other words she probably never looked exactly as she does now when in service.  This makes choosing the most appropriate rake of coaches for her difficult to say the least.

 

The easiest solution might have been to make the recreated ECJS 6-wheel rake she ran with in 1938,but you'd need the smaller tender for that, and that was dropped.

 

I'd be interested to see what they come up with and, frankly, any GN 6-whel stock is likely to be of interest to me.

[G-BOAF]

I also wonder what the future of Locomotion commissions is - there seems to be a close partnership forming with Rails - the Stirling single appeared in the display case on the rails showroom video - will Rails be responsible for future Locomotion orders? Will all future locomotion models be commissioned in partnership with Rails (in which case presumably there will have to be an open tender as this is a public organisation)? Or will they be done under the rails NRM-sponsorship like the Dynamometer car?

[County of Yorkshire]

Many thanks for the links to GNR 6 wheel coaches. However isn't it more likely that what will be announced is a bogie equivalent of the dynamometer coach, so they can use some of their development work for the new coaches yet to be announced? But I'm not familiar with GNR coaches - would there be such a thing as bogie coaches which are a 'simplified' version of the dynamometer car?

 

John S

 

 

No, because the dynamometer car was the NER's copy of the GWR design. Markedly different from GNR vehicle design in short.

 

Yep, important to reiterate that the Dynamometer car was a NER vehicle of 1906 originally, and is very similar externally to the GWR's effort of 1901. It owes nothing to GNR practice. 

 

CoY

Edited May 13, 2018 by County of Yorkshire

[The Stationmaster]

Many thanks for the links to GNR 6 wheel coaches. However isn't it more likely that what will be announced is a bogie equivalent of the dynamometer coach, so they can use some of their development work for the new coaches yet to be announced? But I'm not familiar with GNR coaches - would there be such a thing as bogie coaches which are a 'simplified' version of the dynamometer car?

 

John S

 

On Friday I spoke to the Locomotion people who were at Rails and as far as the coaches are concerned they were very tight lipped about what they have in mind.   However I formed the impression, be it right or wrong. that they will be an NRM/Locomotion model rather than a joint project with anyone else.  But such things can obviously change and I repeat it was an impression I formed and definitely not a 'nod and a wink' over a glass of water  (honest, we really were drinking water - at that point in the day ).

[wombatofludham]

Beyond the Stirling and matching coaches, it would be nice if they commissioned some models of some of the dining cars they have in the collection. None of the big manufacturers seem to be terribly fussed about increasing the range of dining cars in their ranges, possibly because of the relatively low number of potential sales relative to the cost of tooling (although it does make you wonder just how Hornby managed to justify the new Maunsell restaurant given the SR probably had the least number of such vehicles relative to say the GWR or LMS), so this could be a useful range for the NRM, which would appeal not just to modellers, but collectors as well, with little chance of competition from the big manufacturers. Niche, but an obvious tie in with the Collection in Miniature concept.

[Steamport Southport]

Beyond the Stirling and matching coaches, it would be nice if they commissioned some models of some of the dining cars they have in the collection. None of the big manufacturers seem to be terribly fussed about increasing the range of dining cars in their ranges, possibly because of the relatively low number of potential sales relative to the cost of tooling (although it does make you wonder just how Hornby managed to justify the new Maunsell restaurant given the SR probably had the least number of such vehicles relative to say the GWR or LMS), so this could be a useful range for the NRM, which would appeal not just to modellers, but collectors as well, with little chance of competition from the big manufacturers. Niche, but an obvious tie in with the Collection in Miniature concept.

 

Probably because it's quite easy to make a Maunsell restaurant car from the tooling they already have just like they did with the Push/Pull carriages. Just needs different sides, interior, roof and some details changed on the underframe. Virtually what Ian Kirk did with his kits back in the day.

 

It's also the fact that you just need a couple of sets of carriages that are already available and probably already got if you model the Southern. Add the restaurant car and open, and you have a ten coach express.

 

 

 

Jason

[GNR Dave]

Well I'll be front and centre with a wad of cash if any form of GNR coaching stock is produced RTR.

Just a thought, I think the 6 wheelers were later converted to run in Quad-Art & Quint-Art formations (obviously with revised frames and bogies etc) and in that form survived into BR days. If a degree of flexability could be introduced in the tooling, this would undoubtably extend sales potential. 

[adb968008]

There are, of course, technical issues with a 6-wheeler, especially as most manufacturers striving to make ever more finescale RTR locos still feel obliged to accommodate 'train set' curves.

 

Not beyond the whit of man in a mass-produced RTR model, I'm sure, but it is a factor to take into account.

Best not go there.

I had people with pitch forks at my front door for daring suggest the extra wheel on the dynamo meter car actually be a wheel. This included considerable peer pressure, MIB and technical drawings showing a fixed axle is impossible.

 

It would seem to be beyond current capabilities to have such a mechanism in rtr OO, even if HO isn’t a problem, at least to some area of the industry.

Edited May 19, 2018 by adb968008

[The Black Hat]

The problem with the idea of rolling stock is that it will highlight the areas of popularity that exist within regions. While pregrouping and grouping might be gaining for favour the demand still focuses on the BR transition period. 

 

Okay some stock such as the GNR managed to get into further service with rebuilds, making them quad-art sets. If these were to be made they would be expensive at a time when prices are rising so might push demand lower as some just think that its too much. However, these have a massive novelty factor and as such would likely see many save up to get them, especially as they have been popular in kit form in the past which would in most cases make up for the price issue. 

 

But, the problem with GNR stock (mainly engines) is that really it does not poll well. The wishlists that have been done sees GNR engines at roughly half the polling strength of areas from the NE and GE and currently do feature quad art sets, but virtually nothing else pregrouping giving them near free reign to get votes. That again doesnt bode well. You would need to then look towards some joint stock to get this idea moving, which is being talked about, as joint stock is out of the ordinary and again has novelty appeal. It can pander to both regions and others that want something different. 

 

Instead the best course of action would be to look towards areas that do poll well and have traction and support growing. That would mean that really Locomotion would be well suited and placed to announce something North Eastern (which irronically they havent to date). If they did some NER clerestory or M'boarded stock, which did last till end of steam, then this can happily tag onto the back of engines such as the G5 and the coaches like the NER Dynometer Car. It would mean that coaches can be done as one or two items, rather than a set, have the board appeal and feature stock that in grouping traversed the whole network rather than just NE areas. 

 

While people might like GN stuff, only the Quad-art set might have a good business case, but NER coaching stock has one that can easily rival it. 

Edited June 1, 2018 by The Black Hat

[The Black Hat]

If there was to be a stand alone coach that Locomotion should do - then what they should go for is the Stockton and Darlington saloon, which later became the 'Old gentlemans coach' of railway children fame. That would give Locomotion something to match the Dynometer Car done by their partners in Rails. 

 

Add Aerolite to the set - and who wouldn't want that! 

[Wickham Green]

I'm surprised this discussion of six-wheel coaches didn't prompt anyone to mention the British trade's latest venture in that direction : the 'Stove R' ................. as an example of how NOT to do it !

[The Stationmaster]

I'm surprised this discussion of six-wheel coaches didn't prompt anyone to mention the British trade's latest venture in that direction : the 'Stove R' ................. as an example of how NOT to do it !

 

I suspect that if the NRM were to get involved with 6 wheel coaches they would go to a manufacturer who could offer a really good job and not accept any sort of half measures or mechanical nonsenses.