GTR Timetable Change 2018

[mdvle]

I’m still bemused at some of the changes to EMT services, the 6.38 from Corby now eliminates Bedford and Luton stops, but is timed to take 4 minutes longer than previously. This morning, despite a signal check which brought it to a stand at Harpenden, it pulled into LStP at 7.45, a full 10 mins ahead of time and a few mins ahead of its previous 7.48 arrival.

 

The service tailed a Bedford - Gatwick service, its St Albans stop resulting in the Harpenden signal check, but ran through from there slowing only beyond Kentish Town for no apparent reason, the road into LStP was clear and the platform empty, maybe 11 mins early was too embarrassing! The train remains at ten cars but ran to only about 50% capacity today, about right for its normal arrival at Bedford, so why have the Bedford and Luton stops been dropped? I can understand Bedford to some extent, there didn’t look to be a spare platform as we ran through but Luton?

 

To add insult to Harpenden commuters misery, the sight of a half empty train standing but inaccessible to them after, as I learned later in the day, two of their three peak services had been disrupted, must have left them apoplectic!

 

This article, if correct, covers some of the issues complained about.

 

The key points seem to be extending station dwell times from 30 seconds to 1 minute to more accurately reflect the time required given current passenger volumes (which will increase scheduled times, but allow trains to hopefully actually keep to the schedule), and side effects from late arrival of new trains, delayed finishing of electrification, and DfT not specifying enough drivers in the franchise bid documents.

 

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicadas-take-flight-explaining-the-may-timetable-changes/

 

Good news is that refinements are planned as new equipment arrives, drivers hired and trained, etc.

[roundhouse]

This morning the 06.59 from Redhill to Peterborough did turn up. Plenty of places on the ironing boards.

 

However after passengers has boarded at East Croydon there was an announcement that there was no driver to take it via London Bridge and it was diverted viathe hills to Blackfriars. Had to bail at East Croydon onto a much more crowded service so now standing. Now there is a delay in a queue of Thameslink services trying to get into London Bridge so we are stationary at Bermondsey.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I thought I would try our new London Bridge direct - the 06:26. All seems okay, and getting you to London Bridge before 08:00 without having to run the gauntlet of East Croydon is a huge improvement. Last night's new 18:03 was also successful, albeit a little busy due to the preceding Horsham service being canned.

 

This morning the 06.59 from Redhill to Peterborough did turn up. Plenty of places on the ironing boards.

However after passengers has boarded at East Croydon there was an announcement that there was no driver to take it via London Bridge and it was diverted viathe hills to Blackfriars. Had to bail at East Croydon onto a much more crowded service so now standing. Now there is a delay in a queue of Thameslink services trying to get into London Bridge so we are stationary at Bermondsey.

Sounds like not all of the drivers have been cleared for London Bridge. If the case, that is rather unfortunate of GTR.

 

I suspect I am on the train following you into London Bridge.

Edited May 22, 2018 by Claude_Dreyfus

[Dunsignalling]

Its a fact lot of good having a vote when all the candidates are on a mission to go one better than the late Bob Crow! Practically every single nomination I have ever seen is in support of an ardent socialist who believes nationalising everything, eternal class struggle and vilifying management.

 

To be effective, a good trade union needs to know which battles to fight and when to compromise. Standing there like a certain Danish King as the tide comes in gets you nowhere - and with the Conservatives being in charge at Westminster* all this socialist retorioc does nothing but provoke those right wingers only to happy to 'Break the Union' as Mr Wilkinson put it several years ago with plenty of ammunition!

 

The RMT is a trade union NOT a political party and its about time certain people in the organisation paid attention to that fact.

The raison d'etre of a trade union should be the protection and promotion of their members' interests. End of.

 

That duty transcends everything else, it's what they are being paid to do through subscriptions.. 

 

It will, from time to time, bring them and their members into conflict with TOCs and the DfT, when those august bodies attempt to "innovate" in ways that disadvantage members. If resisting the more half-baked ideas can also be presented as defending the interests of the travelling public, all well and good but the political posturing belongs in the Palace of Westminster. 

 

ASLEF have been showing RMT how it should be done for decades, with very little political tub-thumping, but there's no sign of any lessons ever having been learned.

 

The differential in rewards between drivers and (for instance) the signalling grades speaks for itself.

 

John

Edited May 22, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[roundhouse]

I thought I would try our new London Bridge direct - the 06:26. All seems okay, and getting you to London Bridge before 08:00 without having to run the gauntlet of East Croydon is a huge improvement. Last night's new 18:03 was also successful, albeit a little busy due to the preceding Horsham service being canned.

Sounds like not all of the drivers have been cleared for London Bridge. If the case, that is rather unfortunate of GTR.

I suspect I am on the train following you into London Bridge.

May well have been . Arrived at LBG about 07.45 but then took a while queueing to get down the steps. The escalators had a bigger queue

 

I gather that there is an article about the hard seats in new trains in RAIL so will go and get a copy.

Edited May 22, 2018 by roundhouse

[rovex]

Has the new timetable been sponsored by the road lobby by any chance

[Mike Storey]

The raison d'etre of a trade union should be the protection and promotion of their members' interests. End of.

 

That duty transcends everything else, it's what they are being paid to do through subscriptions.. 

 

It will, from time to time, bring them and their members into conflict with TOCs and the DfT, when those august bodies attempt to "innovate" in ways that disadvantage members. If resisting the more half-baked ideas can also be presented as defending the interests of the travelling public, all well and good but the political posturing belongs in the Palace of Westminster. 

 

ASLEF have been showing RMT how it should be done for decades, with very little political tub-thumping, but there's no sign of any lessons ever having been learned.

 

The differential in rewards between drivers and (for instance) the signalling grades speaks for itself.

 

John

 

I would humbly and earnestly suggest that the TSSA had been showing how to do this (and its anticedant, t'Railway Clerks Association) many decades previously, whose subscriptions I gladly foreswore for nigh on 40 years. But then my big bro', an ASLEF member all his natural born, disagrees. But then, he would, wouldn't he?

[The Lurker]

 

I gather that there is an article about the hard seats in new trains in RAIL so will go and get a copy.

So that you have something comfy to sit on?

[roundhouse]

So that you have something comfy to sit on?

I have actually tried self inflating cushions but there isn't enough room to use them and a faf to roll them up afterwards.

[The Stationmaster]

I would humbly and earnestly suggest that the TSSA had been showing how to do this (and its anticedant, t'Railway Clerks Association) many decades previously, whose subscriptions I gladly foreswore for nigh on 40 years. But then my big bro', an ASLEF member all his natural born, disagrees. But then, he would, wouldn't he?

 

Regrettably the TSSA couldn't represent its way out of a paperbag judging by my experience of them as a member over many years (having read many years' worth of RCA journals they did appear to be rather better at representing its then membership).  ASLE&F on the other hand were in my experience very good at representing their members and looking after their interests at all levels plus they were a generally well disciplined union who would fight hard for agreements but then ensure their members complied with them.

 

However negotiating with your brother was rather testing at times

[w124bob]

RMT is very good at accumilating members, but very poor at passing details to local branch secretaries. My brother was a BS for sometime so here's examples of some of his problems. He's a signaller in a large powerbox, his colleagues are members of the RMT but still belong in may cases to their original branch. He found that an entire DHL warehouse workforce had been allocated to him only when he got a call from a DHL employee with a problem.Why did the RMT sign up dozens of blackcab drivers? I've seen it done at New st and Piccadilly, aren't cab drivers self employed? On a slightly different note re restday working, it's worth noting that RD agreements are not open ended, 2year deals being typical but not always. May is also the month many TOC's start talking about pay deals, so from a union point of view it's a good time have an RD agreement running out . Now non of this has any direct baring on the timetable changes, just background to some posts above. Ex driver, Aslef member and onetime branch secretary.

[The Stationmaster]

RMT is very good at accumilating members, but very poor at passing details to local branch secretaries. My brother was a BS for sometime so here's examples of some of his problems. He's a signaller in a large powerbox, his colleagues are members of the RMT but still belong in may cases to their original branch. He found that an entire DHL warehouse workforce had been allocated to him only when he got a call from a DHL employee with a problem.Why did the RMT sign up dozens of blackcab drivers? I've seen it done at New st and Piccadilly, aren't cab drivers self employed? On a slightly different note re restday working, it's worth noting that RD agreements are not open ended, 2year deals being typical but not always. May is also the month many TOC's start talking about pay deals, so from a union point of view it's a good time have an RD agreement running out . Now non of this has any direct baring on the timetable changes, just background to some posts above. Ex driver, Aslef member and onetime branch secretary.

 

ASLE&F had - in my view - the best policy of the lot regarding Rest Day working, their official policy was against it.  The need for Rest Day working is very often a sign of ineffective management although it can result from persistent recruitment difficulties (for example at some south London depots in the past) when the only alternative could be the cancellation of trains.  

 

As far as this timetable change is concerned GTR have no excuse at all for a shortage of Drivers unless it is either a continuation of past shortages they have been unable to resolve or the detail of staff establishments has been dictated to them by the amateurs at DafT.  If the latter is the case (as seems to have been suggested by at least one comment in the media) that fact needs to be publicly acknowledged and explained, and any responsibility allocated where it really lies.

 

I find it confusing, to say the least, that today we heard Grayling apologising for the situation on GTR operated routes.  Does this mean that he and Govt/DafT are responsible for what happened because they instructed the operator what to do and how to do it or is he apologising because he thinks it's good for his political career.  There seems to be more to this entire business than is immediately apparent and 'The Daily Telegraph' has also been quoting some estate agents organisation as suggesting that reduced services from some stations (e.g Flitwick) will lead to falls in house prices - time will tell no doubt.  But overall I think any role of DaftT in all of this , beyond their ordering distinctly unsuitable trains and stipulating service requirements. needs to be clarified, especially if poor reliability continues beyond the first couple of weeks.

Edited May 23, 2018 by The Stationmaster

[jjb1970]

ASLE&F had - in my view - the best policy of the lot regarding Rest Day working, their official policy was against it. The need for Rest Day working is very often a sign of ineffective management although it can result from persistent recruitment difficulties (for example at some south London depots in the past) when the only alternative could be the cancellation of trains.

 

As far as this timetable change is concerned GTR have no excuse at all for a shortage of Drivers unless it is either a continuation of past shortages they have been unable to resolve or the detail of staff establishments has been dictated to them by the amateurs at DafT. If the latter is the case (as seems to have been suggested by at least one comment in the media) that fact needs to be publicly acknowledged and explained, and any responsibility allocated where it really lies.

 

I find it confusing, to say the least, that today we heard Grayling apologising for the situation on GTR operated routes. Does this mean that he and Govt/DafT are responsible for what happened because they instructed the operator what to do and how to do it or is he apologising because he thinks it's good for his political career. There seems to be more to this entire business than is immediately apparent and 'The Daily Telegraph' has also been quoting some estate agents organisation as suggesting that reduced services from some stations (e.g Flitwick) will lead to falls in house prices - time will tell no doubt. But overall I think any role of DaftT in all of this , beyond their ordering distinctly unsuitable trains and stipulating service requirements. needs to be clarified, especially if poor reliability continues beyond the first couple of weeks.

The obsession with demanding and offering apologies has profoundly devalued the word sorry. On the one hand it is often no more than a way to rub people's nose in filth and on the other no more than a way to seek favour (generally offered on the basis that it was actually somebody else's fault).

[w124bob]

The DAfT may well have an involment with the timetable, before I retired it was accepted that they tryed to micro manage quite alot of fairly day to day operations, however don't underestimate the power of PTE's and the assemblies of Scotland and Wales. DAfT isn't the only organisation capable of b*******g up a perfectly good timetable!

[Mike Storey]

ASLE&F had - in my view - the best policy of the lot regarding Rest Day working, their official policy was against it.  The need for Rest Day working is very often a sign of ineffective management although it can result from persistent recruitment difficulties (for example at some south London depots in the past) when the only alternative could be the cancellation of trains.  

 

As far as this timetable change is concerned GTR have no excuse at all for a shortage of Drivers unless it is either a continuation of past shortages they have been unable to resolve or the detail of staff establishments has been dictated to them by the amateurs at DafT.  If the latter is the case (as seems to have been suggested by at least one comment in the media) that fact needs to be publicly acknowledged and explained, and any responsibility allocated where it really lies.

 

I find it confusing, to say the least, that today we heard Grayling apologising for the situation on GTR operated routes.  Does this mean that he and Govt/DafT are responsible for what happened because they instructed the operator what to do and how to do it or is he apologising because he thinks it's good for his political career.  There seems to be more to this entire business than is immediately apparent and 'The Daily Telegraph' has also been quoting some estate agents organisation as suggesting that reduced services from some stations (e.g Flitwick) will lead to falls in house prices - time will tell no doubt.  But overall I think any role of DaftT in all of this , beyond their ordering distinctly unsuitable trains and stipulating service requirements. needs to be clarified, especially if poor reliability continues beyond the first couple of weeks.

 

I think you will find almost all your points, and an awful lot more, are covered in the link posted by MDVLE several posts back, which seems incredibly well informed (if correct as MDLVE pointed out, but it seems to have too many details shown not to have good credibility). It is well worth the long read, as the issues are multiple and multi-sourced. But there is also good news ahead (in a 4 phase plan, not 2 phases as originally planned), but probably not coming as soon as most would wish. I post here again for convenience, in case anyone missed it.

 

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicadas-take-flight-explaining-the-may-timetable-changes/

Edited May 23, 2018 by Mike Storey

[roundhouse]

Yesterday evening, our plans to avoid Thameslink as far as East croydon came undone .

 

We had decided to use the Caterham service form London Bridge as there are plenty of seats on that service at the time we arrive at the platform.

 

However after waiting some itme after the advertised departure time the driver announce that there was a signal failure outside the station. However trians out of the Thameslink plaftforms could be seen to be still moving. So we got off the Caterham trian and moved to the Thameslink platform in time to catch the 17.31 Horsham service.

By the time we got to the platform this was now showing as delayed and platform 4 was now becoming even busier than the previous few days.

 

We managed to get on the 17.35, 12 car service which became very wedged, so much so that when we eventually departed (they had to reopen and close the doors after asking passengers ot move away from them) I was wedged against the doors opposite the platform so had to be careful not to fall out when they opened at East Croydon.

 

We should have arrived at East Croydon at 17.33 on platform 6  and waited 4 minutes for a train home on the same platform ironically a Thameslink that did actually run on time. Yesterday it was diverted away form London Bridge and badly delayed.

(Edit - I tried to alter the orientation of the photo but hasnt worked)

 

From East Croydon we gave up with the trains went for a few beer and caught a bus home.

Edited May 24, 2018 by roundhouse

[Mike Storey]

What is strange is that the daily PPM figures have got worse as the week goes on - yesterday only 75.1%. One would normally expect the opposite trend.

[Wheatley]

ASLEF have been showing RMT how it should be done for decades, with very little political tub-thumping, but there's no sign of any lessons ever having been learned.

 

Quite. "Oh look, the rabid capitalists appear to have created a privatised labour market for our members. Let's play both sides off against the middle for the next 20 years."

 

1. Go to the Intercity TOC with the most ambitious/punitive franchise premium and ask how long a strike they think they can withstand and still make the premium payment without eating into profit. Secure a pay rise.

 

2. Repeat with all the other Intercity TOCs, pointing out that their drivers no longer have parity with TOC 1, and how unfair this is. Secure more pay rises.

 

3. Point out to the Provincial TOCs that they are now haemorraging members to the local Intercity depots whose members are now on 15% more money, and who don't recruit ab initio drivers because they don't need to. Suggest that they pay their drivers more to assist with retention. Secure pay rises.

 

4. Go back to TOC 1 and point out how much the pay differential has eroded between their top link drivers and Pretty Scenery But No Revenue TOC's drivers, and how as a result they aren't quite as easy to recruit. Ask them again how much their franchise premium payment is.

 

5. Repeat for 20 years.

 

Which is why drivers are now on more than most TOC managers, and why the former MD of Northern (Rail Ltd) once described it as "A driver training school with a TOC attached". The TSSA isn't even in the same league.

[Zomboid]

The TSSA does a pretty good job IMO, at least the local reps I know are very good. What they don't have is a membership who are willing to strike, which I think is largely because it wouldn't cause any noticeable disruption unless it went on for weeks & months. Without that stick they can't be as effective.

[roundhouse]

Another update on todays travels.

 

This morning we caught the later of the two Thameslink trains  We got seats but someone in the seat behind  had his knees constantly banging and pushing on the back of my seat. I told him to stop. However, he told me to shut up so told him that if he didn't stop bashing the seat I would bash him. Luckily he stopped as he was a lot bigger than me!

 

At East Croydon for the second time this week they announce that due to no driver it would now avoid London Bridge going via the Hills fast to Blackfriars . After Tuesdays similar incident where we were dwedged ont a following Thameslink whihc then crawled into LBG I decided to stay on to Blackfriars and walk in the rain back to LBG. over 20 late into the office.

 

Tonight all trains late into and out of ECR with many cancelled. Ours was only 13 late off ECR although still no seats but a good job that we caught the Caterham service off LBG as this Thameslink on arrival into ECR (due ot two preceeding cancelled Thameslink services off LBG) was wedged solid so there was a good possiblity that we would have not got on it at LBG.

[Mike Storey]

Another update on todays travels.

 

This morning we caught the later of the two Thameslink trains  We got seats but someone in the seat behind  had his knees constantly banging and pushing on the back of my seat. I told him to stop. However, he told me to shut up so told him that if he didn't stop bashing the seat I would bash him. Luckily he stopped as he was a lot bigger than me!

 

At East Croydon for the second time this week they announce that due to no driver it would now avoid London Bridge going via the Hills fast to Blackfriars . After Tuesdays similar incident where we were dwedged ont a following Thameslink whihc then crawled into LBG I decided to stay on to Blackfriars and walk in the rain back to LBG. over 20 late into the office.

 

Tonight all trains late into and out of ECR with many cancelled. Ours was only 13 late off ECR although still no seats but a good job that we caught the Caterham service off LBG as this Thameslink on arrival into ECR (due ot two preceeding cancelled Thameslink services off LBG) was wedged solid so there was a good possiblity that we would have not got on it at LBG.

 

Regrettably it would appear your experience will not improve for at least the next three weeks (TOC version) or considerably longer (everybody else's version). Sorry.

[RANGERS]

A curious sight of three Thameslink services standing between West Hampstead and the entry to the low level section this morning. The third was probably the service to Gatwick our EMT service had tailed from Luton but no idea what the reason for everything grinding to a halt was.

[John M Upton]

A South Eastern service got routed into a through platform instead of a terminating platform at Blackfriars this morning and blocked the core whilst the drivers of the queue of trains behind it and then the offending train itself changed ends and all reversed back to Elephant & Castle or thereabouts to clear the blockage, took over half an hour apparently.

[roundhouse]

No comments needed here really apart from:

 

LBG this afternoon

 

Merstham yesterday

[roundhouse]

This morning at Redhill. South Eastern services using the Redhill Tonbridge line but Southern have replaced theirs with buses