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Locos at Hessle Haven - LNER D20's





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#26 ArthurK

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 18:53

In the OPC lists there appear to be three drawings of the 3940 gallon tender. These are

4/GW/10776/E B15
4/GW/10781/E B15
4/GW/10796/E Q5/Q6

There doesn't appear to be one specifically for the D20 but of course the OPC list are not complete.

I must send for one of the B15 Drawings.

I can't rember the source but the OPC lists can be downloaded as a spreadsheet. that makes finding and sorting that much easier.

Arthur

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#27 mikemeg

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:16

Many of you who read this section - Kitbuilding and Scratch Building - will be familiar with the work of Arthur Kimber, whose etched loco kits are covered on his own thread. When I started on the D20's Arthur contacted me with an offer to test build an etched chassis for the D20, he having more than enough work with finalising the development of his current range of NER locomotive kits.

Arthur has agreed that I can show this on here but specifically asked that I should mention that this is a personal venture for Arthur and is not currently intended for general release as a kit and may well not be. So this is the assembly of the test etches.

The etches went together very well and with only a minimum of modifying necessary to ensure that everything fitted. The brake arrangement is especially well reproduced with the different lengths of brake hangars and with the subsidiary brackets on the innermost brakes very well represented.

The bogie is also beautifully modelled with working compensating beams as is the compensating arrangement for the driving wheels.

The mainframes taper in at the front, from a point where the motion plate intersects the frames, this to compensate for the absence of cut outs for the bogie wheels. The model should still be capable of traversing curves of around 3' 6" - 4' 0" radii.

The bogie wheels are Alan Gibson 3' 11" 12 spoke, though they should be 4' 0" diameter.

So I show this only to answer those respondents who have suggested ways of producing these chassis' from currently available components.

Cheers

Mike

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  • Brakes Added.JPG

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#28 iak

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:31

ooo now that looks tasty...
I'm no NER modeller but that looks a very well thought out chassis

#29 mikemeg

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Posted 18 August 2010 - 08:43

ooo now that looks tasty...
I'm no NER modeller but that looks a very well thought out chassis


This is my first exposure to Arthur's work and it is indeed a beautifully designed and executed piece of model engineering. I'm going to have to build some more of Arthur's kits once they are available; just a joy to do.

Cheers

Mike

#30 ArthurK

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 13:30

D20 Bogie

This is the etch that Mike used when he did the test build for me. There are a couple of minor errors. There are no holes in the front (half etched) compensation beams to align the springs. These wires represent the bolts. The whole of the compensation units making up the compensation beams, springs and the filler squares are soldered up solid with pivot of 1.0mm wire. The unit is then fitted with 2mm bearings or if drilled to 2mm can be used without. The two completed units pivot on the central frame. They are held there by the bogie wheels themselves which have the minimum of sideplay. There are spacers for P4,EM and OO.

PICT1321.JPG

This is the way the various bits are put together.
Exploded Bogie.jpg
Arthur



#31 mikemeg

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Posted 19 August 2010 - 14:53

D20 Bogie

This is the etch that Mike used when he did the test build for me. There are a couple of minor errors. There are no holes in the front (half etched) compensation beams to align the springs. These wires represent the bolts. The whole of the compensation units making up the compensation beams, springs and the filler squares are soldered up solid with pivot of 1.0mm wire. The unit is then fitted with 2mm bearings or if drilled to 2mm can be used without. The two completed units pivot on the central frame. They are held there by the bogie wheels themselves which have the minimum of sideplay. There are spacers for P4,EM and OO.

PICT1321.JPG

This is the way the various bits are put together.
Exploded Bogie.jpg
Arthur



Just to add a note on the construction of the compensated bogie, the two components which didn't have the locating holes, were the last to be added to the assemblies. If, as I did, the alignment of the various components of the compensating beams is done using 2 mm axles then these outer layers can be quite easily located and, once located, then the holes can be drilled through on the completed beam. So this wasn't a difficult problem to overcome.

I think the photos above show just how well thought out this bogie assembly is.

Thanks for the opportunity to trial some of your work, Arthur. I'll post a photo of the completed chassis once the painting and weathering is completed and the drive arrangement has been finally assembled.

I made a mistake in my choice of gearbox for this chassis, not through any of Arthur's design but because the space between the bearings on High Level axleboxes, spaced for P4, is only around 10.0 mm; I used a gearbox which was 11.7 mm wide which necessitated reducing the bearing thickness, on the driven axle, by around .85 mm which obviously reduces the contact area on those two bearings.

Cheers

Mike
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#32 mikemeg

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 11:51

The external surfaces of the chassis and the bogie have now been painted with two coats of weathered black and then lightly weathered with a very diluted coat of stone colour, just to move the colour towards that grey of weathered black paint. The model will be as was in 1950, so if not pristine at least reasonably newly painted and not yet suffering the deprivations of no maintenance or cleaning at the end of their lives.

The spring assemblies can now be removed to allow the wheels and drive assembly to be fitted. Once the chassis is free running then the brake rigging can be added, after which a final paint and 'rusting' of the brakes will be done. The insides of the frames won't be painted until the dummy inside motion is built and fitted. There is just too much space under the boiler and between the frames on D20's not to provide some semblance of what drove these locomotives. I did this on a J39 Bachmann rebuild, using plasticard, so I do know it can be done.

Cheers

Mike

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  • Ready for the Wheels.JPG
  • J39 Conversion 019 - rmw.jpg


#33 Horsetan

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:06

....I did this on a J39 Bachmann rebuild, using plasticard, so I do know it can be done.


Cen't remember, but didn't Chris Pendlenton make his J39 inside motion work?

#34 mikemeg

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 12:09

Cen't remember, but didn't Chris Pendlenton make his J39 inside motion work?


He very probably did but Chris is in a very rare league and one which I'm not in so I stopped at just making dummy inside motion to fill the space between the frames.

Cheers

Mike

#35 mikemeg

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 13:48

So now time to resort to the 1899 General Arrangement Drawing as reproduced in a magazine in 1901. From these two diagrams, it should be possible to produce a 4 mm drawing of this gear as a prelude to modelling it to go between the frames.

I might have to pinch the cylinders a little closer together given the tapering on the frames. Looking at the D17, preserved in the NRM, the front end arrangement there is different in that the pistons on the D17 are above the cylinders; on the D20's they were below. Note how the valve gear is inboard of the cylinders and connecting rods.

Cheers

Mike

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#36 ArthurK

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Posted 20 August 2010 - 18:16

The etches that Mike used were my very first test etches for the D20. Normally I include the minimum of the internals. This would normally include the weighshaft with the balance weights and also the slidebars. These being the topmost bits that can be seen from above. The only time I have attempted further detail is on the Tennant 2-4-0 when it all hangs out of the bottom (the weighshaft is below the motion rather than above) and the lifting links are there for all to see. I normally have my own builds in forward gear which depresses the lifting links so making them less visible from abvoe. Perhaps I should consider adding more bits if that is what the customer wants.

Question: how does one link up the reverse rod from the cab and the lever on the weighshaft and still have the uderframe separate frpm the footplate?

Arthur

#37 mikemeg

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Posted 30 January 2012 - 17:08

Here's one I started earlier, much earlier. Whilst I continue to paint the Q5 (and painting a loco can take me a week or two, as I allow two or three days between coats, etc.) and while I complete the A6, again with long periods of things setting or drying, I thought I would come back to a project I began about seventeen months ago; the D20 chassis.

This chassis, which is the first set of test etches, went together very well except for a small problem with the positioning of the frontmost set of loco brakes. These had to be removed and the holes for the brake spindle re-drilled around 1 mm further towards the rear of the loco. So this has been done and the motor housing supports built. So this is the first check of the motor/gearbox combination, with the driving wheels located on their axles.

So now to dismantle this and re-do the painting and weathering of the mainframes, prior to its final assembly.

Cheers

Mike

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#38 Blandford1969

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 12:53

Nice to see an update on this interesting project. I'm looking forward to seeing them come together and how you make up the NER/LNER tender, as I am assuming you are using one of Arthurs tenders on the NER tender version?

#39 Worsdell forever

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 14:24

Wow, how did I miss this one? That chassis looks the part. Perhaps Arthur could be pursueded to market these as a replacement for the DJH one... Probably wouldn't fit, the chassis being accurate.

#40 iak

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Posted 02 February 2012 - 15:17

Mmmmmmmm! ;)
Very tasty looking chassis

#41 ArthurK

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Posted 10 February 2012 - 23:28

Wow, how did I miss this one? That chassis looks the part. Perhaps Arthur could be pursueded to market these as a replacement for the DJH one... Probably wouldn't fit, the chassis being accurate.


I note your comments. It wpuld be difiicult to marry this underframe with the DjH body. Taking more meat from the frames to get the ride height would probably eesult in the front end falling apart there is precious little there in the first place. However the frames are similar to those of the Chiver's D20 but with updates. The bogie is also the same design. I am considering bringing out etches for the D20 but don't hold your breath. I have a lot of other things to sort out first, However that was my intention when I designed this new ubderframe.

I am prepared to sell the tender separatly if anyone out there is interested. It can be built as rigid or sprung (latter in P4 and EM only).

I believe Mike intends to scratchbuild the tender as he wants one of those that was substantially rebuilt.

ArthurK

Edited by ArthurK, 10 February 2012 - 23:30 .


#42 mikemeg

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 10:03

While the A6 is in the paint shop I thought it time to return to the D20 chassis. I did have some problems with the brakes on this chassis especially as the brake hangars are (as per the prototype) of different lengths to allow for the paired brake linkage on each side. So using the experience gained on the A6, where the same problem was identified and notified to Arthur, I am now refitting them. I also need to make and fit the eight brake hangar brackets, again, as per the experience gained on the A6.

I still have to fit the springs under the driving wheels and then complete the brake linkages, with one set of linkage behind the driving wheels and the other (the rear set) in front of the driving wheels. The chassis has had the gear wheel fixed and has been tested for free running, which it does; it should, being a 4-4-0. The crank pins still have to be trimmed back to final size.

I think that this chassis is going to need some substantial representation of the internal motion; there is just too much daylight showing between the frames and which will also show beneath the boiler.

The wheels, on this, are Gibson 6' 8" (should be 6' 10") with 3' 11" 12 spoke - these 12 spoke bogie wheels were a feature of NER locos - (should be 4' 0") bogie wheels. Given that wheels could be anything up to 2 1/2" under their nominal diameter before they were re-tyred, then this should be ok.

This was always a background project but, perhaps, may receive a body in the not too distant future.

Cheers

Mike

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Edited by mikemeg, 16 March 2012 - 12:15 .

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#43 mikemeg

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 14:48

On most good etched kits, there is always something which is a sheer delight to put together and to behold. On Arthur's kits there are many such sources of delight but none more so than his design and execution of locomotive brakes. On this D20 chassis kit, the brakes and brake rigging are just a joy to behold, with the rigging rods so finely etched.

So at the risk of boring the living daylights out of anyone reading this, here's another photo with the brake rigging now all assembled. This is about it for the kit assembly, apart from some new brake hangar brackets. The internal motion I shall have to build from scratch (and will).

Now it's time to start work on the next project; Arthur's kit for the LNER A6 4-6-2 tank, which will form the subject of yet another thread.

Cheers

Mike

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  • Brake Rigging Fitted.JPG

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#44 iak

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 14:53

Good design = enjoyment?
Sounds good to me and looks good to :clapping:

#45 mikemeg

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 15:40

Nice to see an update on this interesting project. I'm looking forward to seeing them come together and how you make up the NER/LNER tender, as I am assuming you are using one of Arthurs tenders on the NER tender version?


I did build a batch of LNER group standard 3500 gallon tenders, from scratch a year or two ago. These were/are intended for a batch of J39/1's, using the Bachmann loco body as the basis. One of the D20 tenders will be one of those NER tender rebuilds which used the group standard 3500 gallon tender body on the original NER tender underframe.

Here's a photo of the batch of 3500 gallon tenders.

Cheers

Mike

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#46 ArthurK

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 19:33

Now it's time to start work on the next project; Arthur's kit for the LNER A6 4-6-2 tank, which will form the subject of yet another thread.

Cheers

Mike


My thanks to Mike for trying a test build of my A6 etches. As with many preproduction etches there are a number of minor errors on those that I sent. Let's hope that there are not too many more that I missed! No doubt we will find out as the build progresses. Mike has little more than a few isometrics to work from.

Thanks again Mike.

ArthurK

Edited by ArthurK, 16 March 2012 - 19:34 .


#47 micknich2003

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Posted 16 March 2012 - 22:44

Looking at the D17, preserved in the NRM, the front end arrangement there is different in that the pistons on the D17 are above the cylinders; on the D20's they were below.

Dear Michael, next time we go to the NRM, have another look at the D17. The pistons are INSIDE the cylinders and not above or below them, you are obviously confused with the valves. Nevertheless, you have built a wonderfull model. Best Wishes, Mick.

#48 mikemeg2

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:27

Looking at the D17, preserved in the NRM, the front end arrangement there is different in that the pistons on the D17 are above the cylinders; on the D20's they were below.

Dear Michael, next time we go to the NRM, have another look at the D17. The pistons are INSIDE the cylinders and not above or below them, you are obviously confused with the valves. Nevertheless, you have built a wonderfull model. Best Wishes, Mick.


Mick,

I think what I meant was the piston valves; what I wrote, as you rightly point out, makes absolutely no sense at all. This assumes that the D17 and D20 had piston valves rather than slide valves.

Cheers old mate

Mike

#49 mikemeg2

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 09:30

My thanks to Mike for trying a test build of my A6 etches. As with many preproduction etches there are a number of minor errors on those that I sent. Let's hope that there are not too many more that I missed! No doubt we will find out as the build progresses. Mike has little more than a few isometrics to work from.

Thanks again Mike.

ArthurK


Arthur,

You're back in front of the screen. I do hope the operation achieved complete success and that you'll soon be back in harness designing and making more of these lovely NER locomotive kits.

Cheers

Mike

#50 ArthurK

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Posted 17 March 2012 - 15:33

Mike

Thanks for the good wishes. Things seem to be going reasonably well but it is early days yet. I don't want to spend to much time screen gazing at the moment.

Still got that B15 to sort out. It has always been a nightmare to design but I will get there. They ended their days at Hull. That where I saw the last survivors. Then there is the Q7 to finish!

ArthurK







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