GWR operations from Bodmin General

[Ozexpatriate]

Remote as I am from good printed references, I have a general question about pre-nationalisation (particularly the late 1920s) GWR operations out of Bodmin General.

 

I presume that the GWR operated regular connecting services east from Bodmin General to mainline trains stopping at Bodmin Road and I have read (or at least formed the opinion) that both Wadebridge and Boscarne Junction were jointly operated by the SR(LSWR) and the GWR.

 

What kind of regular services did the GWR operate west out of Bodmin General? (I think I read somewhere that they only went as far as Wadebridge and not into Padstow.)

 

Similarly, I assume the SR(LSWR) operated some regular services from Padstow to Bodmin. Perhaps a connecting service from Bodmin to Boscarne Junction (though that seems very short)?

 

Does anyone have any favourite web links on the topic, or reasonably accessible reference works?

 

(Please understand that I'm not looking for the lazy route here to extract detailed research accumulated from years of your effort purchasing reference works and collecting old timetables etc, just a general idea of how the GWR served the town of Bodmin.)

 

Thanks in advance for considering my question.

[The Stationmaster]

As far as I know (and can check from various TTs if you wish as I have only looked at post-war in detail) GW trains only ran as far as Wadebridge, the SR operated its own trains from Padstow to its Bodmin station at Bodmin North. The GW had running powers from Boscarne Jcn to Wadebridge (possiby Padstow?).

Bit busy at present but will try to do some detail checks this evening.

[Kris]

Mike, I would agree, I don't remember seeing things suggesting that GWR / WR ran past Wadebridge. I would suspect that this was down to the different build times of the line to Wadebridge and the line from Wadebridge to Padstow.

[Oldddudders]

I think the GWR did not get to Padstow - but Western Region did post-1947.

[The Stationmaster]

The GWR 1929 public timetable shows 7 trains in each direction (on weekdays only) between Bodmin Road and Wadebridge, very generously it also shows the Southern service between Bodmin and Wadebridge and, separately although some trains clearly ran through from/to Bodmin, between Wadebridge and Padstow. Looking back at your original questions you might be interested to learn that in 1929 only two GWR branch passenger trains from Bodmin Road went no further than Bodmin General and they were both in the late evening - i.e the majority of GWR passenger trains ran through to Wadebridge.

 

The GWR October 1947 service timetable (i.e WTT) shows times only as far as Wadebridge and has no reference notes to GWR trains running any further.

 

The winter 1950 public timetable shows 3 through trains each way between Bodmin Road and Padstow although in the winter service of 1952 there were only two each way.

 

Need any more?

[Ozexpatriate]

The GWR 1929 public timetable shows 7 trains in each direction (on weekdays only) between Bodmin Road and Wadebridge, very generously it also shows the Southern service between Bodmin and Wadebridge and, separately although some trains clearly ran through from/to Bodmin, between Wadebridge and Padstow. Looking back at your original questions you might be interested to learn that in 1929 only two GWR branch passenger trains from Bodmin Road went no further than Bodmin General and they were both in the late evening - i.e the majority of GWR passenger trains ran through to Wadebridge.

 

Need any more?

No, this is great, thank you very much. 7 trains daily is a handsome service. For some reason I had neglected to think of a through service to Wadebridge starting at Bodmin Road, but except for reversing direction at Bodmin General it makes perfect sense.

 

From a diagramming standpoint, I presume that most services started at Bodmin Road, traveled to Bodmin General where the locomotive ran around the train (if it was a train, or pushed back if push-pull) down to Wadebridge and then back up to Bodmin Road to complete the round trip.

 

Was the locomotive in steam for the branch stabled at Bodmin General or somewhere else, Wadebridge perhaps? I don't recollect reading anything about there ever being a small engine shed at Bodmin Road.

[Gwiwer]

I appreciate the difficulty of researching some of this information at a considerable distance from source. I have a copy of the reprinted 1922 "Bradshaw" which shows services very much as already described.

 

GWR worked Bodmin Road (now Parkway) to General and ran-round to head out to Wadeberidge. Their service terminated there; only the SR worked advertised services to Padstow. However GWR motive power might have occasionally reached the end of the line at times.

 

BR (WR) operations did eventually run through to Padstow since the North Cornwall had closed first at the end of operations.

 

Boscarne Junction was only created as a stopping place when it became necessary to curtail the SR service to a shuttle into and out of Bodmin (a/k/a Bodmin North) as opposed to a through Wadebridge service. Only SR trains called at the intermediate Grogley and Nanstallon Halts until BR took over.

 

IIRC the Bodmin branch engines were shedded at General.

[The Stationmaster]

No, this is great, thank you very much. 7 trains daily is a handsome service. For some reason I had neglected to think of a through service to Wadebridge starting at Bodmin Road, but except for reversing direction at Bodmin General it makes perfect sense.

 

From a diagramming standpoint, I presume that most services started at Bodmin Road, traveled to Bodmin General where the locomotive ran around the train (if it was a train, or pushed back if push-pull) down to Wadebridge and then back up to Bodmin Road to complete the round trip.

 

Was the locomotive in steam for the branch stabled at Bodmin General or somewhere else, Wadebridge perhaps? I don't recollect reading anything about there ever being a small engine shed at Bodmin Road.

 

The GW branch loco stabled at Bodmin General (hence the last trip at night finishing there) so presumably the branch set was also stabled there - I don't think I've got any coach workings for that far west but when I'm back from Stafford I'll have a delve.

[Ozexpatriate]

Thank you to everyone who replied to my question. This is exactly what I was looking for.

 

With the unusual 'terminus' configuration at Bodmin General and the shared metals with the SR(LSWR) between Boscarne Junction and Wadebridge, I had no comprehension of how the GWR would have worked the Bodmin branch.

 

Reversing direction in Bodmin General is an interesting arrangement, but perhaps not quite as eccentric as Liskeard to Looe workings with the orthogonal branch platform at Liskeard and the reversal at Coombe Jct.

 

The entanglements between the GWR and LSWR in Cornwall and Devon are particularly interesting to me, railways in Plymouth perhaps being the ultimate expression of this competition.

[Peter Bedding]

 

........

The entanglements between the GWR and LSWR in Cornwall and Devon are particularly interesting to me, railways in Plymouth perhaps being the ultimate expression of this competition.

 

Hello

 

Back in 1969, David & Charles Ltd published a reprint of RAILWAY JUNCTION DIAGRAMS 1915, which was the official text book of the Railway Clearing House. It does not have an obvious ISBN, but the equivalent number appears to be 7153 4347 5. Original price 126 shillings, though my copy cost £7.50. It contains 158 pages of very detailed maps printed in seven colours depicting ownership and junction arrangements between all pre-grouping companies.

 

Devonport and Plymouth get full coverage. In 1915 the GWR is shown as owner of the essential through route from Keyham in the west to Tavistock Jn and Marsh Mills in the east. Also the Millbay triangle down to Millbay station and the GW Docks, and the Laira triangle down to Cattewater Jn and their own route to the east side of Sutton Harbour. The LSWR is shown as owning their section of line from Tavistock up to Devonport Junction and most of the Stonehouse Pool branch. Elsewhere the LSW owned Friary, the Sutton Harbour branch to North Quay, and Sutton Quay, from Friary to Friary Junction, via Lucas Terrace to Cattewater Harbour, from Cattewater Junction to Plymstock, and from Plymstock to Turnchapel. Any Admiralty lines are not included.

 

This map does seem to indicate that the ancient rails still embedded (as at 2010) in the North Quay would be of LSWR origin. Straight switch turnouts!

 

The London pages are even more fascinating!

 

The book is well worth trying to source on the secondhand market.

 

HTH

 

PB

[Ozexpatriate]

Devonport and Plymouth get full coverage. In 1915 the GWR is shown as owner of the essential through route from Keyham in the west to Tavistock Jn and Marsh Mills in the east. Also the Millbay triangle down to Millbay station and the GW Docks, and the Laira triangle down to Cattewater Jn and their own route to the east side of Sutton Harbour. The LSWR is shown as owning their section of line from Tavistock up to Devonport Junction and most of the Stonehouse Pool branch. Elsewhere the LSW owned Friary, the Sutton Harbour branch to North Quay, and Sutton Quay, from Friary to Friary Junction, via Lucas Terrace to Cattewater Harbour, from Cattewater Junction to Plymstock, and from Plymstock to Turnchapel. Any Admiralty lines are not included.

Peter,

 

thank you. Is this Devonport and Plymouth map the one you are referring to?

 

Scans of the original Railway Junctions Book (now public domain) are now available in wikimedia. (They weren't when I first became interested in the development of railways in Plymouth.) Searching railway junction diagrams links to them, but they are not very well catalogued.

[Peter Bedding]

Peter,

 

thank you. Is this Devonport and Plymouth map the one you are referring to?

 

Scans of the original Railway Junctions Book (no public domain) are now available in wikimedia. (They weren't when I first became interested in the development of railways in Plymouth.) Searching railway junction diagrams links to them, but they are not very well catalogued.

 

Yes, the very one. I wanted to scan my copy, but did not for fear of copyright infringement. Still a good source for armchair research!

 

Peter

[Ozexpatriate]

The GWR 1929 public timetable shows 7 trains in each direction (on weekdays only) between Bodmin Road and Wadebridge, very generously it also shows the Southern service between Bodmin and Wadebridge and, separately although some trains clearly ran through from/to Bodmin, between Wadebridge and Padstow.

Thanks to Peter's reply on Plymouth, I found the 1910 Railway Junction Diagram for Boscarne (Bodmin). It shows the LSWR as sole owner of the Boscarne Junction to Wadebridge section. Presumably there was some arrangement for the GWR to use LSWR metals for their Wadebridge to Bodmin Road services.

[Coombe Barton]

the full link for all diagrams is http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Railways_Junctions_Diagram_1914

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks to Peter's reply on Plymouth, I found the 1910 Railway Junction Diagram for Boscarne (Bodmin). It shows the LSWR as sole owner of the Boscarne Junction to Wadebridge section. Presumably there was some arrangement for the GWR to use LSWR metals for their Wadebridge to Bodmin Road services.

 

I presume (but can find any confirmatory information) that there were Reciprocal Running Powers as GWR trains ran to Wadebridge (I'll check the service TTs to see if they got through to Padstow on any trips) and some Southern trains worked through to Bodmin Road.

[Irishswissernie]

Appended below hopefully, is the GWR Service Timetable Bodmin Road-Wadebridge commencing 22 Sept 1930

[Oldddudders]

Going back a little earlier than the OP's period of interest, in the Summer 1914 LSWR timetable (1967 reprint from Ian Allan) it is interesting to note that even the LSWR did not really operate much of a through Padstow service from Bodmin (the North suffix came later). The services either side of Wadebridge are shown separately. Almost all the Bodmin services are shown as Motor Trains, while only a couple of Padstow trains are shown as such, and in only that couple of cases is there a Bodmin train arriving at Wadebridge and departing soon thereafter for Padstow, and one of those only continues to Padstow on Wednesdays. Also, as a sign of the times, the 9.04 Bodmin to Wadebridge only calls at Dunmere, Nanstallon and Grogley halts on the second Monday in each month. Interestingly, a motor train also arrives at Wadebridge from Padstow at almost the same time - no balancing working having gone to Padstow beforehand - with the same once-a-month footnote.

 

There is, of course, no reference whatever to any other company's trains serving Bodmin from Wadebridge.

[The Stationmaster]

Going back a little earlier than the OP's period of interest, in the Summer 1914 LSWR timetable (1967 reprint from Ian Allan) it is interesting to note that even the LSWR did not really operate much of a through Padstow service from Bodmin (the North suffix came later). The services either side of Wadebridge are shown separately. Almost all the Bodmin services are shown as Motor Trains, while only a couple of Padstow trains are shown as such, and in only that couple of cases is there a Bodmin train arriving at Wadebridge and departing soon thereafter for Padstow, and one of those only continues to Padstow on Wednesdays. Also, as a sign of the times, the 9.04 Bodmin to Wadebridge only calls at Dunmere, Nanstallon and Grogley halts on the second Monday in each month. Interestingly, a motor train also arrives at Wadebridge from Padstow at almost the same time - no balancing working having gone to Padstow beforehand - with the same once-a-month footnote.

 

There is, of course, no reference whatever to any other company's trains serving Bodmin from Wadebridge.

 

I wonder when things changed - Post-War or Post-Group? The 1928 public TT shows several through trains from Bodmin(North) to Padstow and vice versa.

[ray76]

Remote as I am from good printed references, I have a general question about pre-nationalisation (particularly the late 1920s) GWR operations out of Bodmin General.

 

I presume that the GWR operated regular connecting services east from Bodmin General to mainline trains stopping at Bodmin Road and I have read (or at least formed the opinion) that both Wadebridge and Boscarne Junction were jointly operated by the SR(LSWR) and the GWR.

 

What kind of regular services did the GWR operate west out of Bodmin General? (I think I read somewhere that they only went as far as Wadebridge and not into Padstow.)

 

Similarly, I assume the SR(LSWR) operated some regular services from Padstow to Bodmin. Perhaps a connecting service from Bodmin to Boscarne Junction (though that seems very short)?

 

Does anyone have any favourite web links on the topic, or reasonably accessible reference works?

 

(Please understand that I'm not looking for the lazy route here to extract detailed research accumulated from years of your effort purchasing reference works and collecting old timetables etc, just a general idea of how the GWR served the town of Bodmin.)

 

Thanks in advance for considering my question.

Hi Ozex, You are probably aware, but just in case, in Model Railway Constructor between 1980 and 1984 there was an extensive series about building Bodmin to P4 standards. The one article,part 33, solely about operations was in the Oct 1984 issue, but other details were spread through the series. I would imagine copies are available across the pond.- I can't scan the mags, although I have spares for most of them- you might gather that I'm also have a vested interest! Cheers, Ray

[Coombe Barton]

Hi Ozex, You are probably aware, but just in case, in Model Railway Constructor between 1980 and 1984 there was an extensive series about building Bodmin to P4 standards. The one article,part 33, solely about operations was in the Oct 1984 issue, but other details were spread through the series. I would imagine copies are available across the pond.- I can't scan the mags, although I have spares for most of them- you might gather that I'm also have a vested interest! Cheers, Ray

And from what I remember of that, didn't they have to simplify the operations from the prototype timetable to make it believable in a model?

[lakeview770]

Hi if someone could help with identifying certain issues for me it would help. I would be interested in articles that cover research, planning, diagrams etc not too bothered about construction techniques just so I can order the relevant issues.

 

Andy

[Grovenor]

See http://www.norgrove.me.uk/P4-articles.html

Regards

Keith

[lakeview770]

Thank you