Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

C12s one of my favourite locos!

 

Below are photos of one I'm building at the moment which will become 4525, based at Louth in the late 30s for our new exhibition layout to be based on Spilsby.  A Craftsman kit, obtained secondhand and part built (about 10%). I had to remove the w/m bunker top parts to fit them on square and in fact to remove the front part of the RHS piece and add a new piece to extend it as it was shorter than the LHS.

 

The key issue I think with the Craftsman kit is that the cab top doesn't have a flat enough roof and that the sides of the cab top are therefore not quite high enough. However, I wasn't sufficiently minded to try to make a new one and get it all nice and square with the cutouts. 

 

I have added quite a bit of extra detail. It has replacement smokebox door, short chimney and dome, safety valves and whistle - all from LRM. I have added the plate wind shields to the sides of the cab cuts as well as the rain strip over the beading on the top of the cutouts. I have left off the rear steps on the bunker as a lot of photos show these not to have been fitted. I have fitted the step on the LHS side of the bunker and the small angled handrail to the rear of the cab cutout. It has sprung tapered buffers from my spares box for the front and Gibson GN parallel buffers on the rear. I have also fitted the vacuum pipe along the RHS valance and the steam heat pipe along the LHS valence. It also has injectors made from modified Mainly Trains J52 injectors (now available from Andrew H at Wizard) below the rear of the cab.

 

My next challenge is to teach myself to use a bow pen and a Bob Moore lining pen so I can line it in red - I have used a bow pen before some years ago but need to refine my skills. When its finished it I have another to build which first of all means stripping down a model I was given by a mate that has been glued together! That one will have tall chimney and dome and be No 4537, based at Boston. That will be the fourth Craftsman C12 I've built as I built my first one back about 1979 (4507) - my first brass kit and another (4513) about 2002 for a mate who has modelled Nottingham Victoria.

 

Also posted below is my Millholme N5 No 5945. This model is based on one of the last 6 built which were the only ones to have snap head rivetted tanks and bunker. If I may point out Tony - the two you have shown should have the rivetted tanks and bunkers which are quite distinctive (the SEF one appears not to have rivets in the photo?). The Millholme kit is only suited to one of the last 6 with the snap head rivets but I understand that SE Finecast actually make brass overlays with rivets for its N5 but I think these need to be purchased separately?

 

The comparison between the two is quite interesting - the boiler is pitched a lot higher on the SEF model. Perusing photos and a drawing by Reddy in Sept 1970 RM indicate the pitch of the Millholme boiler is close to the mark. However, it does appear to be a few mm short at thew front end ahead of the smokebox.

 

Andrew

Beautiful work, Andrew,

 

A pleasure to see - some top-quality personal modelling by contributors. Just what this thread is all about I hope.

 

I'm aware of the deficiencies with regard to the rivets on the SE Finecast N5. It's actually the first independent build of the loco (nine years or so ago) and, at the time, Dave Ellis had not produced the etched overlays. 

 

I rather like the N5 for a variety of reasons. I used to see them chuffing along (at some distance, across the teacher training college fields) from my bedroom window in Cheyney Road in Chester and at Chester Northgate, prior to the introduction of DMUs on the GC/CLC. 

 

Unfortunately, I never saw a C12 to my knowledge, but a day trip to Mablethorpe in about 1953 (when I was seven) might have produced one at one of the level crossings in the area. I really can't remember. 

 

They can make rather nice models, as you've shown. These have probably been seen before, but not in a whole context.

 

 

This is a SE Finecast example, built/painted by Andy Sparkes. He brought it along to the Woking Show last year.

 

 

And another (I think from the same source) by Tom Rance.

 

 

A trio of scratch-built examples, by David Somers.

 

 

I built a SE Finecast C12 (writing about it in BRM) as part of a barter with Graham Nicholas of Grantham fame. I also built a SE Finecast J69 under the same terms (the cab roof isn't seated properly - it's a separate fitting and I hadn't pushed it fully-down for the picture). Graham painted these.

 

 

I also built/painted/weathered a J69 for Ian Wilson (more bartering - it works!). 

 

 

Tom Rance did a beautiful job of a J69, building a London Road Models kit. 

 

I'm surprised a J69 (and all the J67/J68 derivatives) doesn't seem to be on any RTR manufacturer's radar (as far as I know). I was (very) tentatively approached for assistance some little time ago, but nothing came of it. 

 

I also helped a 16 year build a SE Finecast C12 three years ago. He did a fine job (though I can't find the pictures). 

 

It really is an immense pleasure to have friends bring their models along for me to see and photograph. On occasions I'm told I've been of some little assistance. I'm delighted! 

 

I wonder what is left for the RTR boys (and girls) to do now? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Atso]

Hello Tony,

 

I can't contribute to the C12s (although I have built one in N gauge) but would like to offer these N gauge examples of GNR locomotives to the discussion.

 

 

An Ivatt C1 which has featured before and you saw at Warley which is nearing completion. The loco body is a detailed and hand painted/lined 3D print with a heavily modified Dapol Hall chassis providing power. The modifications included designing some new front and rear spacers (to carry the bogie and pony wheels), swapping the driving wheels for some from a Dapol Britannia (the largest diameter that would fit the wheelbase), some modest filing of the frames, modifying the crossheads to fit some N Brass slide bar castings (actually for an O4) and bending the con rods to clear the front coupling rod bolt. The motor has also been replaced with a Nigel Lawton 8mm coreless motor as the original Dapol item would not fit in the tender! I've still got some final detailing to do as well as make up a draw bar to connect the loco and tender.

 

 

An unpainted development model of a J3 which will become Hitchin based no. 4011. With the exception of the wheels, everything in the picture has been 3D printed, including the, unpowered, chassis. The wheels are spare items from the Peco Collett 0-6-0 and the loco will eventually be powered by a heavily modified Union Mills tender drive unit. No tender yet as many of the J3s hauled a Stirling type D tender which I do not have a decent set of drawings for at present. I would have really liked to have modelled one of the Kings Cross based examples but I have been unable to find any photographs of one of these locos - and the J3 class is a bit of a minefield in terms of details.

 

Eventually it'll be joined by a second Hitchin based example, no. 4154, which will differ in some details (mainly regarding the sandbox locations). Whenever possible, I do like to model visual variations within a class when I'm building more than one for myself.

 

Finally, not an ex GNR locomotive but an ex LNER locomotive, a V3 built for a friend/customer.

 

 

This picture was taken before glazing (Krystal Klear) was applied but otherwise as the locomotive was supplied in a lightly weathered condition. It is one of the three V1/V3 bodies that I used for the BRM article that you very kindly took the pictures for earlier this year and mounted on a modified Farish N class chassis.

 

 

[65179]

 

 

I rather like the N5 for a variety of reasons. I used to see them chuffing along (at some distance, across the teacher training college fields) from my bedroom window in Cheyney Road in Chester and at Chester Northgate, prior to the introduction of DMUs on the GC/CLC. 

 

Unfortunately, I never saw a C12 to my knowledge, but a day trip to Mablethorpe in about 1953 (when I was seven) might have produced one at one of the level crossings in the area. I really can't remember. 

 

 

Tony,

 

I would have thought you were more likely to come across Trafford Park's C12s (67366 and 67369) in that era.  I think trips out to Chester were relatively rare, but if you made it to Manchester Central up to early 1953 then they would often have been seen on station pilot duties.

 

Simon

[Michael Edge]

The last six N5s had countersunk rivets, "snap head" are the visible type seen on all the others.

[Wibble]

Both types worked the Stamford-Essendine branch (the older N5s lasting until the end), and were serviced at New England on a weekly basis. Is it beyond the realms of possibility, that, for a time, New England was a bit busy, and they were serviced at Grantham? It's just about equidistant. Thus, a light engine C12 or N5 bowling through LB? Surely it happened - once? Or twice?

Tony,

 

I think you're going to have to do better than guessing. You will need photographic evidence with the correct dates before such a thing happens, otherwise it might just be a pretend gesture and almost certainly not covered under the Write Wrules. Interesting thought nonetheless.

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

I think you're going to have to do better than guessing. You will need photographic evidence with the correct dates before such a thing happens, otherwise it might just be a pretend gesture and almost certainly not covered under the Write Wrules. Interesting thought nonetheless.

Thanks Kier,

 

Write Wrules? I like that.

 

Here's the challenge then, to all out there, in this season of peace and goodwill to all (humbug!), if anyone has, or knows of, a picture of a C12, on the ECML, between Essendine and Grantham, in the '50s, will they please tell me. My mind will then be at rest.

 

They were regularly seen at Grantham and at Essendine/Peterborough, but not in between. In fact, I saw the Peterborough one (or two) in model form, on Peterborough North this afternoon. I hope the point which Tom fixed and the carriage which I fixed are still both fine, Gilbert.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited December 19, 2018 by Tony Wright

[LNER4479]

I wonder what is left for the RTR boys (and girls) to do now? 

... hopefully not an ex-GCR / LNER 9P / B3. First batches of production kits already shipped out to prospective kit builders (some of whom call in here from time to time). Hopefully we'll see some of the finished products in due course.

 

[Tony Wright]

Tony,

 

I would have thought you were more likely to come across Trafford Park's C12s (67366 and 67369) in that era.  I think trips out to Chester were relatively rare, but if you made it to Manchester Central up to early 1953 then they would often have been seen on station pilot duties.

 

Simon

Thanks Simon,

 

I didn't get to Manchester Central until after 1953. I don't think C12s ever worked to Chester. I was taken to Manchester London Road as a nipper, where I saw A5s and L1s, plus the ex-GC tanks, but no C12s I'm afraid.

 

A pity really, for they're very pretty little locos, and make good-looking models. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

[LNER4479]

For a high-quality product, 'good value' is probably a fair description, Mike.

 

As I've already mentioned however, they are incredibly sensitive. As part of our bartering, Graham Nicholas built a signal and installed all the operating mechanisms for the main line ones on LB. Thus far, about four/five Veissmann units have failed. Graham has replaced them all. We think they failed because their adjustment was not quite spot-on. By that I mean it would appear that, although the signal arm had apparently moved from 'on' to 'off' (and vice versa), electricity was still being fed to one of the poles. Thus, in time, they just 'cooked'. Not dangerously, but enough to destroy the solenoid.  

 

I believe Graham has had one or two fail on Grantham in this manner. 

 

Since the problem has been identified, no more failures have occurred, and they do work beautifully. 

Recently, Grantham's electronic whizz Andrew has come up with a electronic drive control system that provides protection against burn out. About half of the Grantham signals have now had them fitted and they worked without any trouble at the Wakefield show. It's way beyond me in terms of the electronics involved but, if anyone's interested, I can try and get the details off Andrew.

 

Having previously bought the motors from Gaugemaster, I have bought recent batches from a German-based on line shop which, despite exchange rates and delivery charges, worked out somewhat cheaper. Worth shopping around on the web.

[Tony Wright]

... hopefully not an ex-GCR / LNER 9P / B3. First batches of production kits already shipped out to prospective kit builders (some of whom call in here from time to time). Hopefully we'll see some of the finished products in due course.

 

WP_20181203_23_05_34_Pro.jpg

Nice work, Graham,

 

I don't think mine is on the 'to do' list for quite some time. At the moment there's a 4F, an A3, a K3, an A4 (in EM) and a V2 on the stocks (not to mention a girder bridge).

 

The B3 isn't even on the horizon!

 

In two years' time? We'll see. And, I don't believe it'll ever be available RTR. 

 

 

Remember the beautiful Mike Edge-built one we ran on LB last August? A pity the real locos' performances didn't match their looks. 

[Lecorbusier]

... hopefully not an ex-GCR / LNER 9P / B3. First batches of production kits already shipped out to prospective kit builders (some of whom call in here from time to time). Hopefully we'll see some of the finished products in due course.

 

WP_20181203_23_05_34_Pro.jpg

I know its not why you posted the picture, but on the enlarged pop out the drystone walling to the top of the picture looks very convincing.

[65179]

Thanks Simon,

 

I didn't get to Manchester Central until after 1953. I don't think C12s ever worked to Chester. I was taken to Manchester London Road as a nipper, where I saw A5s and L1s, plus the ex-GC tanks, but no C12s I'm afraid.

 

A pity really, for they're very pretty little locos, and make good-looking models. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony.

 

I had a dim recollection of seeing something about C12s at Chester.  It turns out 3766 was at Northgate shed at nationalisation before moving on to Trafford Park, and was no paper transfer:

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/06/chester-northgate-1947-1959.html

 

Regards

 

Simon

[2750Papyrus]

"Valour" would make a good sub

 

Nice work, Graham,

 

I don't think mine is on the 'to do' list for quite some time. At the moment there's a 4F, an A3, a K3, an A4 (in EM) and a V2 on the stocks (not to mention a girder bridge).

 

The B3 isn't even on the horizon!

 

In two years' time? We'll see. And, I don't believe it'll ever be available RTR. 

 

Trains running 19 B3.jpg

 

Remember the beautiful Mike Edge-built one we ran on LB last August? A pity the real locos' performances didn't match their looks. 

 

"Valour" would make a good subject for a magazine article build.

[2750Papyrus]

Thanks Kier,

 

Write Wrules? I like that.

 

Here's the challenge then, to all out there, in this season of peace and goodwill to all (humbug!), if anyone has, or knows of, a picture of a C12, on the ECML, between Essendine and Grantham, in the '50s, will they please tell me. My mind will then be at rest.

 

They were regularly seen at Grantham and at Essendine/Peterborough, but not in between. In fact, I saw the Peterborough one (or two) in model form, on Peterborough North this afternoon. I hope the point which Tom fixed and the carriage which I fixed are still both fine, Gilbert.  

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Would they not have run through on visits (even if terminal) to the Plant in Doncaster?

[Tony Wright]

I had a dim recollection of seeing something about C12s at Chester.  It turns out 3766 was at Northgate shed at nationalisation before moving on to Trafford Park, and was no paper transfer:

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/06/chester-northgate-1947-1959.html

 

Regards

 

Simon

Thanks Simon,

 

I'd have to claim an even dimmer recollection. Though a relative lived within sound of the CLC at Chester, I'd still have been only one year old at the time of the C12's allocation to Northgate. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Would they not have run through on visits (even if terminal) to the Plant in Doncaster?

Good point,

 

Will that be enough, Kier?

[richard i]

Nice work, Graham,

 

I don't think mine is on the 'to do' list for quite some time. At the moment there's a 4F, an A3, a K3, an A4 (in EM) and a V2 on the stocks (not to mention a girder bridge).

 

The B3 isn't even on the horizon!

 

In two years' time? We'll see. And, I don't believe it'll ever be available RTR. 

 

Trains running 19 B3.jpg

 

Remember the beautiful Mike Edge-built one we ran on LB last August? A pity the real locos' performances didn't match their looks.

 

As man steps on soap box to defend the gcr.

From my reading b3 were good but just different from gnr locos for firing hence the gnr firemen’s comments. The worked 1913-1947 not bad lifespan and would no doubt have been shorter if they were duff locos. Were used more on the hilly section because of their power rather than on the flatter racing section at the London end of the gc main line.

Richard

[St Enodoc]

... hopefully not an ex-GCR / LNER 9P / B3. First batches of production kits already shipped out to prospective kit builders (some of whom call in here from time to time). Hopefully we'll see some of the finished products in due course.

 

WP_20181203_23_05_34_Pro.jpg

Cor! Whose layout is that Graham?

[micklner]

As man steps on soap box to defend the gcr.

From my reading b3 were good but just different from gnr locos for firing hence the gnr firemen’s comments. The worked 1913-1947 not bad lifespan and would no doubt have been shorter if they were duff locos. Were used more on the hilly section because of their power rather than on the flatter racing section at the London end of the gc main line.

Richard

 

I have read far worse reports on a Loco Class

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/B/b3.php

[Theakerr]

Who makes the red and white lining used on the C12 and others?  A C12 is probably the last loco that I want and as of today will have to build.  There was a significant number based at Louth.   They used to haul the local stopping/commuter train from Louth to Grimsby 6 days a week and I still have a very vague memory of taking the train with my mother to go shopping in Grimsby and at Christmas to have coffee and listen to the Christmas Carols at Guy and Smiths.

And they are such a pretty engine

Edited December 19, 2018 by Theakerr

[Tony Wright]

Who makes the red and white lining used on the C12 and others?  A C12 is probably the last loco that I want and as of today will have to build.  There was a significant number based at Louth.   They used to haul the local stopping/commuter train from Louth to Grimsby 6 days a week and I still have a very vague memory of taking the train with my mother to go shopping in Grimsby and at Christmas to have coffee and listen to the Christmas Carols at Guy and Smiths.

And they are such a pretty engine

I used Kemco waterslide lining (no longer available I believe, but I had a stock).

 

Alternatives are Modelmasters or Fox.

 

Any others?

Edited December 20, 2018 by Tony Wright

[Woodcock29]

The last six N5s had countersunk rivets, "snap head" are the visible type seen on all the others.

Thanks Mike, I realised lying in bed last night that I had written the wrong type of rivets in my post. Now edited to correct my error.

Andrew

[Tony Wright]

As man steps on soap box to defend the gcr.

From my reading b3 were good but just different from gnr locos for firing hence the gnr firemen’s comments. The worked 1913-1947 not bad lifespan and would no doubt have been shorter if they were duff locos. Were used more on the hilly section because of their power rather than on the flatter racing section at the London end of the gc main line.

Richard

I think it's fair to say that, considering their size, the GC 4-6-0s as a type weren't that brilliant. The smaller ones perhaps, but the B2s were weak, the B3s lacking in sparkle, and the best were the B7s (though, not for nothing were they known as miners' friends).

 

Compared to the contemporaneous GWR 4-6-0s, they were miles behind. 

 

As for longevity, it's clear the D11s were the best express passenger loco Robinson ever built - hence their survival into the '60s. 

[Woodcock29]

My new B3 kit is probably also some way down the list as I have another C12, D2, D3, Sentinel Railcar and a J1 (from a Graeme King J6) to build first plus some more Howlden stock. And of course some more scenery on my layout otherwise I'll probably get sacked by my friends in the BRMA! It would be higher on the list of course if I hadn't already got my kit bashed Valour. Mind you I might try to slip the B7 in higher up the list!

 

As to potential new LNER RTR releases, I would think either a J21 or J27, J69 and possibly C2 eventually after all they all have preserved examples and although the C2 might be someway down the NRMs list they have Henry Oakley in the National Collection. Also the first 3 of these all lasted well into BR days.

 

Andrew

Edited December 19, 2018 by Woodcock29

[Denbridge]

Recently, Grantham's electronic whizz Andrew has come up with a electronic drive control system that provides protection against burn out. About half of the Grantham signals have now had them fitted and they worked without any trouble at the Wakefield show. It's way beyond me in terms of the electronics involved but, if anyone's interested, I can try and get the details off Andrew.

 

Having previously bought the motors from Gaugemaster, I have bought recent batches from a German-based on line shop which, despite exchange rates and delivery charges, worked out somewhat cheaper. Worth shopping around on the web.

Even within the UK they can be bought a lot cheaper

Kernow has (had) considerably cheaper.