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Last green 45s





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#1 Russell Saxton

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 20:46

On the old forum we had a long and very interesting discussion re peak liveries and I opined that the last few green 45s were all gathered in Derby Works by early November 1969 and I said I didn't think any lasted in green into the 70s.

The last few were 39, 42, 84,98,119, 131 and 136 BTW. I have ascertained the repaint dates for 84,98 and 131 which were as I thought all in Nov/Dec 69 but 119 it appears retained green until 13 February 1970 just prior to outshopping. Unless any of the others outlasted it that makes it the last green 45, albeit inside the works which means I dont know which of the above was the last to run in traffic.

42 I have no record of as blue till 21 March 1970 but it may have been released before xmas 1969 of course which is likely as it was in primer in November. It should be added that all the 44s bar D4 and several 46s were still green in Jan 1970.

Hope this is of interest.
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#2 GKPC

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 21:20

Russell, great stuff, as per usual. Did we eventually come up with a definitive list of paint schemes for all 193 ?
Dont suppose your research moved into the realm of dmu's in Bsyp with white domes - there seems to have been quite a lot done in this livery.
Thanks, Chris (GKPC)

#3 Trevor H

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Posted 28 December 2009 - 22:03

Thanks Russell for the updates, anything liverywise of this period always interested inPosted Image

Dont know if It's a new image but came across this one today of D155.
http://www.flickr.co...57618889774105/

Cheers
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#4 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:36


Thanks Russell for the updates, anything liverywise of this period always interested in :rolleyes:

Dont know if It's a new image but came across this one today of D155.
http://www.flickr.co...57618889774105/

Cheers



It's new to me. I was aware of 155 GFYE but there are few photos of it as there are with any of the class. This one acquired the full yellow ends between January and March 1971 and was repainted blue on September 9th that year, dating this shot to a few months between March and July/August as it would have gone into works.

If anyone has any shots of GFYE peaks I'd be delighted to see the links or your original scans, especially of any 45s as I think there is just one published shot of such a variation.

Edited by Russell Saxton, 30 July 2015 - 21:48 .


#5 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 10:58

Russell, great stuff, as per usual. Did we eventually come up with a definitive list of paint schemes for all 193 ?
Dont suppose your research moved into the realm of dmu's in Bsyp with white domes - there seems to have been quite a lot done in this livery.
Thanks, Chris (GKPC)



DMUs sadly not-it is an interest of mine but there's only so much time available!

We did get a list of all known variations on the old forum, collated by Geoff Endacott-cheers, Geoff.


Liveries Summary:

Lined green with no yellow panel: (list needed)

Lined green with small yellow panel: All 1 ??“ 193.

Blue with full yellow ends: All 1 ??“ 193.

Economy green: 1, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16, 25, 34, 36, 42, 63, 66, 72, 78, 84, 93, 98, 102, 123, 125, 145, 147, 156, 159, 163, 166 and others.

Early blue: 47, 50, 51, 52, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 61, 64, 71, 79, 91, 92 101, 105, 109, 113, 114, 116, 133, 135.

Green (either version) with full yellow ends: 1, 3, 6, 10, 25, 26, 100, 138, 154, 155, 159, 166, 188, 193.

Blue full yellow ends with no logo: 24, 83.

Unknown: 20, 23, 29, 31, 32, 85, 87, 90, 116, 120, 126, 130, 134, 146.

Updated to 20,23,29,31,32,85,87,90, 120, 126, 130, 134, 146 all Lined Green to Standard Blue
116 - Early Blue

I should add that 6 and 7 according to Sean Greenslade who recorded both at Toton 26/6/71 had the white line painted out (6 poss on one side only) and therefore may not be kosher economy greens. Some doubt over 146 as there is at least one shot of it that appears to have no stripe.

I must also stress that 25 GFYE is known only from one photo and its JUST possible it was early blue but if so it is a new find anyway and Im confident in saying it was GFYE, 26 is known from ONE sighting report on jan 2 1969 but I think 100% accurate and 100 I saw myself-all the evidence says I am mistaken but I KNOW I saw it!! I even remember it had the secondmans window recently replaced and unpainted.
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#6 Removed a/c_Phil

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 11:26

Good to see your work Russell.

The bit I don't get is why paint out the white line on the bodyside ?

If the loco were being fully repainted in "economy" green, losing it's stripe in the process - yes - makes a lot of sense.

Just painting a white / beige stripe green though - eh ?

#7 'CHARD

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 17:38

I get the suspicion that the Austerity livery was pending clarification/ official sanction of the new corporate livery, during the 1965-66 period, but that's just a hunch.

Sorry to be a pain but does anyone know when D188 (happily Bachmann's present green 46 AND a Waverley regular) received FYE, by the way?

#8 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 18:25


I get the suspicion that the Austerity livery was pending clarification/ official sanction of the new corporate livery, during the 1965-66 period, but that's just a hunch.

Sorry to be a pain but does anyone know when D188 (happily Bachmann's present green 46 AND a Waverley regular) received FYE, by the way?



Yep, well, nearly. It was reported as having them in October 1969 Railway Observer and I have a sighting report of it 27 Sept 1969 so the likely date is August 1969. You have to assume that it was immediately reported to the RO of course and it may have been running around like it for months but thats unlikely as my correspondent says it wasnt a cop that day but was the first sighting of it GFYE. And apart from 166 reported in the RO same issue no 46 precedes it as GFYE
It was recorded ex works blue on 19 Aug 1970 so didnt run long GFYE, probably less than a year.

This is the gen I have for dates of GFYE for the few 46s that had it. There were many green locos with panels into 1971 and 147/63/5 lasted into 1972, 165 was lined.

138 Green SYP 30/1/71 FYE by 22/2/71 In works Dec 71 blue by 1/2/72
154 SYP 2/3/71 and FYE 19/3/71 so March 71!
155 SYP 16/1/71 FYE 13/3/71
159 SYP 30/1/71 GFYE 10/4/71 still GFYE 18/12/71 Blue-dunno! reported RO July 72 so sometime between December 71-May 72.
166 syp 21/6/69 reported FYE RO Oct 69 still GFYE 18/7/70 blue ex works 16/10/70
188 First 27/9/69 blue by 19/8/70
193 First 15/1/70 still GFYE 2/10/70 blue by 22/12/70

Incidentally 146 I can confirm was NOT economy but just had its stripe painted out.

Edited by Russell Saxton, 30 July 2015 - 21:49 .


#9 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 18:30

Good to see your work Russell.

The bit I don't get is why paint out the white line on the bodyside ?

If the loco were being fully repainted in "economy" green, losing it's stripe in the process - yes - makes a lot of sense.

Just painting a white / beige stripe green though - eh ?



Dont ask me! Posted Image

The stuff ive found out since started researching liveries amazes me. Like why put D6319 through a full classified overhaul and repaint it blue, then withdraw and scrap it three months later? Why did so many 33s not get any yellow ends at all till 1967/8? Why have 20s with FYE one end and SYP the other? Why, if FYE was mandatory from 1967 did 7600/59 escape it till Feb 1974?

It really is a fascinating topic. well, to me anyway....Posted Image

#10 'CHARD

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 18:35

Awesome Russell, many thanks for that. Waiting for the page to load was like waiting for an exam result; knowing the die was cast but would or wouldn't it be a pass!

That's great, having noticed that Peaks were very blue by the end of '68, I'm keen to reflect the relative impact of the green that still remained without too much repainting, looks like the 46s were green's last stronghold...

EDIT: I've just lost the plot and re-found it! This info indicates that D188 was still wearing GSYP when the Waverley shut, no repaint at all needed!

#11 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 19:31

Still green on jan 1st 1970 peakwise were 1-3,5-10, 119 (in works) 138/41/6/7/54-7/9/63/5/6/82/8/9/93, Possibly 168

Im a bit vaguer as to 1/1/69 but definitely green were 1-3/5-10, 26/30/1/39/42/72/84/98/100/2/19/30/1/6, 138/41/6/7/54-7/9/63/5/6/8/82/8/9/93, a mix of economy and lined greens.

All the 46s not listed above were blue FYE but Im vaguer on the 45s, there are one or two that may have been green in 69 such as 25 which may have been FYE and 78 which was green in November 68 and unreported till late 1969 as blue.

Some 45s retained early blue SYP in 1969 including 50 and 133 at least.
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#12 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 19:32

Awesome Russell, many thanks for that. Waiting for the page to load was like waiting for an exam result; knowing the die was cast but would or wouldn't it be a pass!

That's great, having noticed that Peaks were very blue by the end of '68, I'm keen to reflect the relative impact of the green that still remained without too much repainting, looks like the 46s were green's last stronghold...

EDIT: I've just lost the plot and re-found it! This info indicates that D188 was still wearing GSYP when the Waverley shut, no repaint at all needed!


Ive got a photo of it, do you want to send it off list?

#13 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 19:43

Update. My photo of 188 GFYE is dated 13/8/69. Very nice fully lined out green!

#14 Russell Saxton

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 20:15

Further update 193 NOT economy green. I have amended my post.

#15 Trevor H

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 20:41

Hi Russell,

D164 carried a large yellow panel, painted to above headcode box. Do you know the reason for this or if any others received it.

Trevor.

#16 'CHARD

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 20:54

Here's a poser, from the RailScot photo archive:

Green Full Yellow End, single centre panel headcode, red shedplate as at the end of this link, date 4th January 1969 (last-but-one day)
http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22765

I'm guessing this must be a 45 then...

#17 'CHARD

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 20:56

Update. My photo of 188 GFYE is dated 13/8/69. Very nice fully lined out green!

That would be awesome, cheers!

#18 Pennine MC

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 21:20

The bit I don't get is why paint out the white line on the bodyside ?

If the loco were being fully repainted in "economy" green, losing it's stripe in the process - yes - makes a lot of sense.

Just painting a white / beige stripe green though - eh ?


The assumption I've always made is that (patch painting being common practice at that time), somebody thought an even green line would look better than a worn, faded, oily white one :lol: - ditto of course on cl. 24/25s

Going appallingly off-topic (sorry Russ), I did eventually track down my own holy grail in the RO, finding a mention of 8033 still being all-green at Stratford on 6.10.68. I would reckon it outlasted the all-green 33s by some months, but whether it made 1969 like that is a very moot point as the Fell 'Class 20s in Colour' shows it GFYE at Crewe on 26.1.69

#19 Trevor H

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 21:31

Here's a poser, from the RailScot photo archive:

Green Full Yellow End, single centre panel headcode, red shedplate as at the end of this link, date 4th January 1969 (last-but-one day)
http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22765

I'm guessing this must be a 45 then...



I wouldn't like to say it is definately a green one, If it was it could possibly be 166 which had a shedplate fitted too the front along with one on the cabside (55A) above the number, also quite a few BFY ones still carried their shedplates

I think the only class 45's to receive GFY were splitboxes.

I'm sure Russell will tell us Posted Image

Trevor.

#20 Trevor H

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 21:45

I should add that 6 and 7 according to Sean Greenslade who recorded both at Toton 26/6/71 had the white line painted out (6 poss on one side only) and therefore may not be kosher economy greens. Some doubt over 146 as there is at least one shot of it that appears to have no stripe.


6 had white lines removed on both sides, definately by 08/71

Trevor

#21 'CHARD

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 21:51

I wouldn't like to say it is definately a green one, If it was it could possibly be 166 which had a shedplate fitted too the front along with one on the cabside (55A) above the number, also quite a few BFY ones still carried their shedplates

I think the only class 45's to receive GFY were splitboxes.

I'm sure Russell will tell us Posted Image

Trevor.

Look again at the cab roof and the buffer beam/ bogie front. I reckon there's weathered green and red there, Bruce McCartney's Agfa repro are pretty faithful. Anyway, while we're about it, here are some more from that period that may be easy, may be debatable, may be plain impossible to i.d:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23712
FYE Peak odd looking square edged panel, again looks like red bogie front

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23740
June '68, SYP austerity green? split box

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23706
Just a nice record shot for you all of D14 with end doors on 12 June '68 and SYP

#22 Trevor H

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 22:17

David Ford of this Parish has a couple of distant shots stating it is D8 in GFY in July 71Posted Image Posted Image , but the number is unreadable.


http://daveseastmidl.../p57610734.html





#23 Trevor H

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 22:42

Hi Russell,

D164 carried a large yellow panel, painted to above headcode box. Do you know the reason for this or if any others received it.

Trevor.


Also found 82 with yellow panel up top of headcode boxes, but being a split box it looks like a upside down fat T.

Trevor.

#24 'CHARD

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 22:53

While I'm on a roll, here's some GSYP split-box eye candy at Flex cutting, on the Waverley yet again:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=22730

#25 Trevor H

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Posted 29 December 2009 - 23:18

Look again at the cab roof and the buffer beam/ bogie front. I reckon there's weathered green and red there, Bruce McCartney's Agfa repro are pretty faithful. Anyway, while we're about it, here are some more from that period that may be easy, may be debatable, may be plain impossible to i.d:

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23712
FYE Peak odd looking square edged panel, again looks like red bogie front

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23740
June '68, SYP austerity green? split box

http://www.railbrit....e2.php?id=23706
Just a nice record shot for you all of D14 with end doors on 12 June '68 and SYP


Hi Chard,

As you say it could well be green and would possibly be 166 as this loco carried a shed plate while in GFY, just my eyes aren't good enough to see the diferencePosted Image

I have a picture somewhere of the Peak with the square edged panel, will check which one it is. A bit OT but I don't suppose you've found any shots of a class 29 working The Waverley by any chance

Peaks noted in BFY and still carrying red buffer beams: 89, 173, 185, 186 & 191, their could be others.

Trevor.







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