Parcel & 'Paper Fleets...

[JonHGB]

Afternoon all,

 

I've been trawling for info regarding NPCCS fleets and their home sites, also for notable workings (To-From, Composition, etc.).

So far I've turned up not much, Paul Bartletts' excellent site has given me a few pointers in terms of stock stabling locations (Notably Old Oak Common,Bristol Pylle Hill, Crewe and Cambridge?) and I know about Red Bank, have I missed anywhere else?

Also, more towards the 'Papers workings, would I be right in thinking Man Vic would have been the starting point for most North East, North West and Midland services? I say this because I know there were (Still are?) printing presses in the city, and obviously the notorious 'Bank was right outside, so two and two together...

Anyway, where else (London, Glasg'ee) would/ could these working have originated? Flicking through Flickr (eh!?) I've seen photos of Eastfield 47's on the WCML pulling Newspaper GUV consists; even some NSE liveried ones too... So where would these have come from?

 

To summarise, then:

Q.1) Where were the main NPCCS allocations held?

Q.2) In regional terms, where would workings begin/ end? (I mean workings made up mostly of Newspaper vans, in the late '70s-'80s, LM or Southern Region preferably)

Q.3) Would I be right in thinking Parcels workings would be separate to TPO/Postals? And, therefore, would TPO's feature in a WTT covering Pax/ Parcels workings? I'm mainly interested in the Dover-Manc TPO and York-Shrewsbury Mail, plus the SO Leeds City- Red Bank C.S. vans. Ta.

 

Any help greatly appreciated.

J.

[br2975]

Well, to get started, here are some observations I made on Saturday, 14th. February 1987 - in connection with the following days Sunday papers.

.

The destinations were taken from what had been written or stuck on the side of each van.

.

PADDINGTON 2035hrs

Platform 10

93362(Westbury)+93411(Taunton)+93952(Taunton)+93725(Gloucester)+93948(Stroud)+93878(Stroud,)Gloucester)

Platform 9

93383(Chippenham)+93623(Swindon)+93644(Bristol)+93384(Bristol)+93834(Bristol)+94021(Bath)+95205(Bath)+84318 (?)+47534

Platform ?

80670(Transfers Milford)+84558(Haverfordwest+Whitland)+84125(Swansea)+93652(Swansea)+ 93938(Llanelli)+93367(Bridgend)+93506(Cardiff)+93694(Newport)+84416(Newport).

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ST. PANCRAS 2115hrs

45062+93628(?)+93887(?)+93110(?)+93105(Bradford & Leeds)

45142+93149(Sheffield,Mexboro,Barnsley)+93766(?)+93593(?)+93916(Hull,Selby,Leeds overflow)

.

KING’S CROSS 2125hrs,

47640+93680(Grantham)+93825(Grantham)+93642(Newark)+93138(Lincoln)+93180(Doncaster,

Retford,Worksop,Gainsbro’)+84094(Grimsby,Cleethropes)+93824(?)+84185(?)+80699(?)

.

EUSTON 2210hrs

81019+93451+93312+93910+93982(Liverpool,Crewe)+80678+93319+93241(Empty)+93157(M/C)+

93117(M/C)+86241

.

PADDINGTON 2250hrs.

47194+93293(Bridgend)+93711(Cardiff)+93192(Cardiff)+93914(Cardiff)+93852(Newport)+ 93265(Lydney,Chepstow)+93962+84332+94030

.

Hope this helps

.

Brian R

[Ravenser]

For many years there was a Manchester-Cleethorpes newspaper train , which conveyed passengers as well as papers - I remember returning from a scout camp in the late 70s and catching it at Retford at an ungodly hour (4:30 am?) hauled by a 37. That was a connection off a night train leaving Kings Cross about 1:15am, which also consisted mostly of parcels stock (I think the usual BGs and GUVs) with some mark 1s at the back, and a Deltic on the front.

 

Newspaper trains ran from London and Manchester , up to about 1986 , when News International reneged on the national contract , and the other newspaper groups decided it wasn't viable  to carry on with the rail network without them. Parcels traffic lasted another decade

 

TPOs/Postals would be a completely different nightly network, and as far as I'm aware never conveyed passengers . The WTT would however show everything that ran - Parcels, night passenger, newspaper , sleepers, TPOs - the lot , including freight (eg Freightliners)

 

I'm not sure there were really home sites for dedicated fleets in those days. My impression is that it was more a case of stock being where it was - rather like wagons

 

The better informed will be along shortly no doubt

Edited January 15, 2013 by Ravenser

[JonHGB]

Yes, very much!

I've got an itch for a very unrealistic 'tail chaser' oval; essential I'd split it in half, and have the two curved 'ends' representing two different locations to show the workings at different stages of their journey. One idea is Norman Bank, in Edale, which would be good on workings to/for Manchester Victoria (Red Bank C.S.) As the for the other end, I was thinking Dawlish on the Western or Redhill on the Southern. I'd tie this in with another board with simply some carriage/ van sidings and a small hidden fiddleyard on the principal:

Loco+Consist in > Loco off and then off-scene for stabling > 08 (Cheeky 09?) on and vans split into carriage roads. Then reversal, different vans/ order, and new loco on opp. end and off-scene and onto loop. Still in planning here...

Thanks, Brian, very helpful.

[JonHGB]

For many years there was a Manchester-Cleethorpes newspaper train , which conveyed passengers as well as papers - I remember returning from a scout camp in the late 70s and catching it at Retford at an ungodly hour (4:30 am?) hauled by a 37. That was a connection off a night train leaving Kings Cross about 1:15am, which also consisted mostly of parcels stock (I think the usual BGs and GUVs) with some mark 1s at the back, and a Deltic on the front.

 

Newspaper trains ran from London and Manchester , up to about 1986 , when News International reneged on the national contract , and the other newspaper groups decided it wasn't viable  to carry on with the rail network without them. Parcels traffic lasted another decade

 

TPOs/Postals would be a completely different nightly network, and as far as I'm aware never conveyed passengers . The WTT would however show everything that ran - Parcels, night passenger, newspaper , sleepers, TPOs - the lot , including freight (eg Freightliners)

 

I'm not sure there were really home sites for dedicated fleets in those days. My impression is that it was more a case of stock being where it was - rather like wagons

 

The better informed will be along shortly no doubt

 

Thanks, Ravenser. I'll go back to sourcing some WTT's...

 

In my 1H83 book, loco hauled services circa 83/84 timetable, there's a working... No, two:

1A03 03:33 M-F London Bridge-Bexhill, Vac braked and 1A05 03.33 SO London Bridge- Bexhill, Vac braked, both 'Does not convey Passengers beyond Eastbourne' Could this be a Parcels working, not dissimilar to the ones you mention above?

All the best, and thanks for the info.

Jon H.

[eastwestdivide]

Thanks, Ravenser. I'll go back to sourcing some WTT's...

 

In my 1H83 book, loco hauled services circa 83/84 timetable, there's a working... No, two:

1A03 03:33 M-F London Bridge-Bexhill, Vac braked and 1A05 03.33 SO London Bridge- Bexhill, Vac braked, both 'Does not convey Passengers beyond Eastbourne' Could this be a Parcels working, not dissimilar to the ones you mention above?

All the best, and thanks for the info.

Jon H.

The SR overnighters out from London in the small hours were intended for newspapers I thought.

[JonHGB]

Even better, 'Papers! Thanks EastWestDivide...

 

I've got another working, again from 1H83 (Loco hauled services c.1983) 1M41, M-F 22.34 York-Shrewsbury, Vac. braked. This was the York/ Shrewsbury mail's headcode (?), so would it have had, for it to feature in a Passenger service listing, pax accomodation as well?

Sorry to keep throwing them up, I'm just going for accuracy!

Regards,

Jon.

[D1059]

Even better, 'Papers! Thanks EastWestDivide...

 

I've got another working, again from 1H83 (Loco hauled services c.1983) 1M41, M-F 22.34 York-Shrewsbury, Vac. braked. This was the York/ Shrewsbury mail's headcode (?), so would it have had, for it to feature in a Passenger service listing, pax accomodation as well?

Sorry to keep throwing them up, I'm just going for accuracy!

Regards,

Jon.

I think it may have - but someone else will have to confirm. It was not unknown for Deltics to appear on this working from the late 70s until their demise

 

STEVE

[br2975]

From May 1987 most of the SR loco hauled air brake fleet was disbanded, leaving only the Southampton Boat Train set, the workings below were the remaining ‘booked’ loco hauled services.

 

BR (SR) Newspaper services

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South Eastern Section (3 workings)

0245hrs. London Bridge – Deal one Class 73 + BSK (AB2) plus vans.

Returns as:-

1915hrs Margate – London Bridge parcels

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0310hrs. London Bridge – Sittingbourne one BSK (AB2) plus vans

Returns as:-

1718hrs. Gillingham – London Bridge parcels

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0330hrs. London Bridge – Dover, Western Docks one BSK (AB2) plus vans.

Returns as:-

2000hrs. Dover – London Bridge parcels

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All stock is maintained at Ramsgate

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Central Section (No booked workings)

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Western Section

2252hrs. Waterloo – Weymouth BSK/TSO/BSK plus vans

2238hrs. Weymouth – Waterloo, then to Eastleigh (for maintenance), via Southampton, returning via Portsmouth on ordinary parcels working(s).

 

0140hrs. Waterloo – Yeovil Jct. BSK/TSO

return as:-

0515hrs. Yeovil Jct. – Salisbury

0702hrs. Salisbury – Southampton – Eastleigh

2122hrs. Southampton – Waterloo parcels

 

0230hrs. Waterloo – Portsmouth via Havant BSK

(unadvertised, seating reserved for newspaper packers)

Returns via Eastleigh, then by means of

2200hrs. Southampton – Waterloo parcels.

 

0245hrs. Waterloo – Bournemouth BSK & Portsmouth BSK(plus TSO MO), via Eastleigh.

Train divided at Eastleigh, with the Bournemouth portion strengthened by a BSK & TSO.

returns as:

0624hrs. Fareham – Eastleigh (Portsmouth portion)

and

0725hrs. Bournemouth – Eastleigh .

All returns to London as:-

2141hrs. Eastleigh -Portsmouth – Waterloo parcels

 

NOTES

1555hrs. Eastleigh – Fratton ECS booked to convey the stock for;

2252hrs.(3 vehicles plus vans), and 0245hrs. (2 vehicles plus vans)

.

Brian R

[JonHGB]

Cool, thanks Steve (Western Empire)...

I'm not a confessed Deltic fan, I don't tend to like 'long noses' (Locos, not Dorniers) but nonetheless, if I ever had the urge for a Bachmann 55, then after appropriate re-naming ( 55013 "The Black Watch") it might see some use.... hmm.

Anyway, cheers.

Jon.

Edited January 15, 2013 by JonHGB

[JonHGB]

Thanks again Brian,

I have a 'Bible' Oct-88 to May '89 and all the bits and bobs; but if 'Papers vanished in '87 I might push back to anywhere '75-'87 if I can catch a WTT or two...

 

As an aside, when did 'Siphons' and Thompson 63 footers get wiped off the system; I guess the 'Tommys' were just after blue-isation, but I've seen 'Siphons' in Blue with 'Papers brandings photted in the '70s? Again, I'm just after some variety in van type here...

Cheers,

Jon.

[JonHGB]

Right, I, myself, can vouch for the York mail having passenger acommodation; just found (Herehttp://www.flickr.com/groups/cfas/discuss/72157623408382014/ ) normal comp. was 6 TPO/ Stowage vans, 4 pax + 2/ 3 vans for Manchester (Interesting read overall actually)

Thanks guys.

J.

[Fat Controller]

The SR overnighters out from London in the small hours were intended for newspapers I thought.

Correct- the parcels workings would have been from Bricklayer's Arms.

[Ravenser]

h

 

Thanks again Brian,

I have a 'Bible' Oct-88 to May '89 and all the bits and bobs; but if 'Papers vanished in '87 I might push back to anywhere '75-'87 if I can catch a WTT or two...

 

As an aside, when did 'Siphons' and Thompson 63 footers get wiped off the system; I guess the 'Tommys' were just after blue-isation, but I've seen 'Siphons' in Blue with 'Papers brandings photted in the '70s? Again, I'm just after some variety in van type here...

Cheers,

Jon.

 

The Thompson vans ran into the late 70s , and possibly the early 80s. Gresley BGs certainly lasted until the late 70s , and both ran in blue for some years

Edited January 15, 2013 by Ravenser

[Fat Controller]

Thanks again Brian,

I have a 'Bible' Oct-88 to May '89 and all the bits and bobs; but if 'Papers vanished in '87 I might push back to anywhere '75-'87 if I can catch a WTT or two...

 

As an aside, when did 'Siphons' and Thompson 63 footers get wiped off the system; I guess the 'Tommys' were just after blue-isation, but I've seen 'Siphons' in Blue with 'Papers brandings photted in the '70s? Again, I'm just after some variety in van type here...

Cheers,

Jon.

Siphons on the 'papers lasted into the early 1980s; they were replaced by GUVs which had corridor connections, ETH, and toilets added (the WR used to sort newspapers en-route, unlike the other regions). Thompsons, Gresleys and Hawksworth vans lasted into the mid-1970s, Stanier 50' and 57' vans a few years more.

Central and South-Eastern Division (SR) stock stabled at New Cross Gate/Bricklayer's Arms; South-Western Division at Clapham Junction or at the sidings where Waterloo International is now.

The Manchester newspaper trains worked from Victoria, returning empty direct to Red Bank for stabling. I believe most parcels traffic was concentrated on Bolton, where there were a lot of mail-order (catalogue) warehouses. Longport (Stoke) and Worcester also had originating catalogue traffic.

General parcels stock (rather than that used for the 'papers) didn't seem to work to any set diagrams; in 1972, I noted a ex-shops BR blue SR 4-wheel brake at Swansea. It wasn't one of the ordinary ones, though, but S3S, one of a trio built for the Night Ferry.

There was mention of passenger accomodation on parcels/TPO trains; the WR Newspaper trains normally had a SK for the sorters to sleep in on their way to London (I blagged a ride back to Bristol in this in 1976, after missing the last timetabled passenger). The Milford Haven- Paddington sleeper conveyed a section of TPO vehicles, which I believe worked to Bristol; I'm not sure if these were detatched at Swansea or Cardiff, or if the whole train worked to Bristol TM.

[caradoc]

Some Postal trains conveyed passengers as well; 1S81 2050 Carlisle-Perth being one example, which consisted of 2 Postal vans and 2 passenger vehicles (a Mark 1 BSK and CK, IIRC). The train was electrically hauled from Carlisle (often a Class 81-85), with a change to a small diesel at Mossend Yard. On Saturdays the Postal vans weren't conveyed and the train consisted of the 2 passenger vehicles only. Swift acceleration was guaranteed !

[JonHGB]

Thanks guys for your input, its very well received I assure you.

To just quickly cap on what gen's been received so far, then;

 

• Newspapers traffic on the Western would have been ETH fitted stock (And loco, course) Siphons wouldn't have been out of place into the '80s and there would have been at least one regular carriage for the sorters.
• TPO's did occasionally also convey passengers, or vice-versa with passenger workings hauling Postal stock; examples being the York-Shrewsbury (1M41) Carlisle-Perth (1S81) and Milford- Paddington Sleeper.
• Manchester Victoria was the starting point for Newspaper traffic with the empties returned to Red Bank.
• SR Newspapers services ran from Waterloo/ London Bridge and returned here as parcel workings. 

So, to pose some more queries:

1. Where were the most popular destinations for the above (Manchester) Newspaper workings in the '70's/ '80's
2. What stock would have generally formed the Western Region 'Paper workings; i.e. Siphons and ____?
3. What publications should I look out for related to NPCCS traffic?

Thanks to everyone for their continued contributions!

Jon.

Edited January 15, 2013 by JonHGB

[Fat Controller]

Western Region 'papers would be formed of Siphons, a BSK or SK for the sorters to go up to London on. Sometimes there was a dedicated Full Brake as well; I remember a Stanier 50' brake, all-blue, and lettered 'For Use on West-of-England Newspaper Train Only. Return Empty to Old Oak Common'; the lettering was in 'Rail Alphabet' font, but with (G)WR capitalisation.. I believe it was W31385M; I can look at the model I made at the time (1975) to check.

The Manchester papers served all the major routes radiating West, North and East from there; I'm not sure about southwards. The Newcastle (empty from Heaton to Red Bank after unloading) would often have between twenty and thirty vans; this may have been the heaviest loaded.

Coverage of NPCCS stock is relatively sparse; there is a book dedicated to Southern Railway stock, but most of the other stuff is to be found as chapters in books on coaching stock. David Larkin did an album of photos during the 1970s, published by Bradford Barton, whilst, more recently, Cheona did a similar one, though obviously with more modern vehicles (or at least liveries).

[eastwestdivide]

 

• SR Newspapers services ran from Waterloo/ London Bridge and returned here as parcel workings. 

And from Victoria.

[The Stationmaster]

Western Region 'papers would be formed of Siphons, a BSK or SK for the sorters to go up to London on. 

Not so Brian - all the newspaper packers travelled up on ordinary passenger train services (and had special Annual Season Tickets for that purpose).  The coaches formed in the 'paper trains were there to provide toilet facilities and also to provide a facility suitable for traincrew booked to travel as passenger (the 03.25 Paddington used to be one where it was difficult to find a seat sometimes as it had various sets of Reading and Didcot men travelling on it).

[JonHGB]

The Manchester papers served all the major routes radiating West, North and East from there; I'm not sure about southwards. The Newcastle (empty from Heaton to Red Bank after unloading) would often have between twenty and thirty vans; this may have been the heaviest loaded.

 

Coverage of NPCCS stock is relatively sparse; there is a book dedicated to Southern Railway stock, but most of the other stuff is to be found as chapters in books on coaching stock. David Larkin did an album of photos during the 1970s, published by Bradford Barton, whilst, more recently, Cheona did a similar one, though obviously with more modern vehicles (or at least liveries).

 

Thanks, Brian, I had heard of the Heaton- Red Bank empties; interesting point about the NPCCS coverage; the Larkin book is like hen's teeth (I've seen them listed as 'SOLD' nearly everywhere I've looked, except Amazon where the sellers want £24 upwards.... Crazy.

For now I'll stick to Paul Bartlett's site and here.

 

As a thought, would any period Coaching Stock books (i.e. Number listings) have made mention of any of the stock?

Cheers again,

Jon.

[DerekEm8]

Yes, very much!

I've got an itch for a very unrealistic 'tail chaser' oval; essential I'd split it in half, and have the two curved 'ends' representing two different locations to show the workings at different stages of their journey. One idea is Norman Bank, in Edale, which would be good on workings to/for Manchester Victoria (Red Bank C.S.) 

John,

I think you will find that the newspaper/parcels trains East from Manchester to points South of Leeds/Wakefield were from Piccadilly (and also earlier from Mayfield) with some stock from Longsight

[Fat Controller]

Thanks, Brian, I had heard of the Heaton- Red Bank empties; interesting point about the NPCCS coverage; the Larkin book is like hen's teeth (I've seen them listed as 'SOLD' nearly everywhere I've looked, except Amazon where the sellers want £24 upwards.... Crazy.

For now I'll stick to Paul Bartlett's site and here.

 

As a thought, would any period Coaching Stock books (i.e. Number listings) have made mention of any of the stock?

Cheers again,

Jon.

The RCTS books, which I think later became Platform 5, certainly had a list of vehicles in service at a given time.

[JonHGB]

Thanks, Derek, I didn't actually remember Longsight or Mayfield! (In spite of my 08 'Starlet' winking at me!)

Edited January 15, 2013 by JonHGB

[br2975]

This is the book to get:-

.

"Coaching Stock of British Railways - 1978"

P.Mallaband & L.J.Bowles

pub. RCTS

No ISBN.

.

It lists 116 'Siphon G' vans  (TOPS NMV) of which 33 are recorded as being TOPS coded NNV newspaper vans.

 

Two of the NNV variant are actually prefixed S i.e S1007 and S1011.

.

Brian R