Coal staithes

[JCL]

Hi there

 

I've a stupid, hopefully quickly answered question about coal staithes. I'm putting together a layout based on Wainfleet, Lincs, and there was a coal merchant there with coal staithes. I've a photo of some 16t coal wagons in the distance, but can't see the staithes themselves.

 

I'm putting together coal staithes with coffee stirrers a la Redgate, So the stupid question is, how high was the back of coal staithes on a branch line? That is to say, would the coal have been unloaded from the door in the side, and would the top of the staithes come below that i.e. to about the height of the solebars? I've looked on Google and Flickr for help but can't see any photos of one in action.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

cheers

 

Jason

[freebs]

'tis a good question, and one I'll be wanting t'answer for too...

[grandadbob]

Here's a link to a photo I posted a while ago which shows former coal staithes which might give you an idea - the bricks behind the loader bucket were stacked on the old coal siding.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49654-front-loader-in-176/&do=findComment&comment=570418

 

 

Regards, 

 

Bob.

 

[JCL]

Thanks for your help Bob.

 

That's a great photo, and an interesting discussion, but I'm still unsure as to the height. From the surroundings, it looks like they would come up to higher than the solebar, unless the wagons were on a raised bit of track?

 

freebs, are you stalking me?

[freebs]

Me? Why no... What gives you that idea...?

 

 

It just so happens I was intending to build a small coal merchants hut next...

[grandadbob]

The track was on the same level. I've got an old photo in a book of the same place which I don't think I can post due to copyright & is not very clear but it looks like the the back of those staithes were lower than the sides. I suspect there was a good deal of variation over the country & individual merchants constructed things to suit themselves.

Incidentally in the same book there are a couple of photos of wagons being unloaded onto the ground & onto lorries from the side of the wagon away from the staithe.

 

Regards,

 

Bob.

[Flying Pig]

Coal facilities have been discussed at some length on RMweb here and here, and briefly here.

[JCL]

Thanks again Bob, and hi Simon, that's just brilliant. I'm generally a lot better with the search function that what I've shown today. Thanks very much.

[allan downes]

Hi there

 

I've a stupid, hopefully quickly answered question about coal staithes. I'm putting together a layout based on Wainfleet, Lincs, and there was a coal merchant there with coal staithes. I've a photo of some 16t coal wagons in the distance, but can't see the staithes themselves.

 

I'm putting together coal staithes with coffee stirrers a la Redgate, So the stupid question is, how high was the back of coal staithes on a branch line? That is to say, would the coal have been unloaded from the door in the side, and would the top of the staithes come below that i.e. to about the height of the solebars? I've looked on Google and Flickr for help but can't see any photos of one in action.

 

Thanks for any help.

 

cheers

 

Jason

 

Hi Jason.

 

Genarally speaking, coal staithes came up to the bottom of a wagon door so when the door was opened, it would drop onto the top of the staith uprights.

Now I'm not saying that this was always so, but I do remember this from the time I had at being a coalman and regretted it ever since!

However, below a plan and photo of coal staithes.

Cheers

Allan

 

 

[Nick Holliday]

It's interesting that when you do a Google Image search for "Coal Staithes" you get lots of pictures of the real things - the massive structures for emptying truck loads of coal into the holds of ships - and lots of model coal pens, all positioned close to the tracks!

Photos of coal bins/pens close to the tracks are rare because there weren't that many of them, for various reasons which have been explained in previous threads.

I would normally suggest that at Wainfleet it would have been unlikely that there would have been any pens at all, because it is too far away from the south east, where such practices were more common, but, looking at the plan of the yard on old-maps, the southern siding, which would probably have been used for coal, is right against the boundary fence, and there are other sidings which would have been more accessible for unloading other types of goods. So, on balance, it would not be unreasonable that, probably post WW2 the local coal merchant might have constructed coal pens adjacent to the track.

I would venture to suggest that the top edge of the sleeper wall would have been fairly even, particularly if the intention was to, illegally, use the wall to prop the side door, as a jagged profile would tend to cause damage to the door flap. It might be worthwhile referring to the Scalefour Society book on St Merryn, which discusses coal pen construction, as I seem to think the builders concluded that the real pens were built in a completely different way from how Ratio / Wills / Hornby portrayed them.   As I have said before on this topic, this is a fine example of the dangers of modelling models, rather than finding out what the real thing looked like, and how it was used.

[Alister_G]

The station I am modelling, Bakewell in Derbyshire, had a number of coal pens in the goods yard, as coal was one of the main freights, and there were two coal merchants based at the station. The pens were built in fairly haphazard fashion, and were quite irregular, as can be seen in a number of photos on the "Disused Stations" site, a couple here:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index69.shtml

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index48.shtml

[JCL]

Thanks everyone!

 

Hi Nick, I have a 1912 map of Wainfleet that doesn't show any staithes/pens. I sent a number of photos of pens to some family members and they tell me that there were three and the planks were laid horizontally. If there were, they were removed 40 years or so ago. I'll go back to them with your information to see if it dislodges any cobwebs.

 

On an aside, The coal merchant was a resident from the opening of the railway until the goods yard closed. Unfortunately I can't get in touch with them, and I haven't come across any photos of that end of the yard.

[JCL]

Hi acg_mgr, they are great photos, and a really interesting site.

[allan downes]

The coal staithes just outside of Bedford in the 60s were made out of old railway sleepers where we dropped the wagon door onto the yes, I would agree, level tops of the sleepers then stand on the door as we shovelled out the coal into the staith - I lasted a week !

 

Also Google "Coal Staithes" then wish you hadn't - one million, for hundred and forty nine pics !

 

Cheers.

Allan

 

BTW I used to live near Wainsfleet, Sybsey actually, and got our coal from the local coalman who had it delivered by road in bulk.  

[JCL]

Hi Allan, blimey, that was just down the road! Ours came from Scupholms (I think that was how it was spelled - I know it was pronounces Scuffomes), dropped into the coal bin outside. I did Google staithes, but you're right, there were a lot, but they didn't really give the information I thought I was after. I think the fact that the staithes were sometimes at a height to hold the doors horizontal is very interesting.

[allan downes]

Hi Allan, blimey, that was just down the road! Ours came from Scupholms (I think that was how it was spelled - I know it was pronounces Scuffomes), dropped into the coal bin outside. I did Google staithes, but you're right, there were a lot, but they didn't really give the information I thought I was after. I think the fact that the staithes were sometimes at a height to hold the doors horizontal is very interesting.

Hi JCL.

 

At the rear of the carpark behind the pub in Sybsey out on the main road and directly behing the Post Office is 'Scamens row' and just one really old cottage.That's where I lived.

 

Before that it was a farmhouse in Bicker Bar on the A52 just outside Swineshead.Then it was Hibaltstowe, then it was Barnetby, then it was Europe, then it was Scunthorpe then it was......

 

Cheers, Lincolnshire rules OK!

aLLAN.

[Nick Holliday]

It may be serendipitous that the latest issue of British Railway Journal (No 77) has a wonderful photo of Eastbourne coal yard from the Aerofilms' library.  There is a great variety of size and style of bunker, some are quite massive, being higher than the seven planked wagon alongside, but I think, in most cases, although the back is failry tight to the track, the bins themselves are actually filled from the other side, with a space for lorries between the open end of the pen and the next track, from which the coal would be unloaded.  This meant that the capacity of the bin was greatly enhanced, although at the expense of not being able to unload directly from the wagon.  This arrangement does however still allow the trader to park his lorry alongside the railway wagon and load up directly, without having to double-handle the coal.

The Aerofilms' catalogue is probably the best resource for researching this topic, because the nether regions of goods yards were seldom visited by the normal enthusiast, whereas the wide field of vision gained from above often captures these nooks and crannies.  The Ian Allan / Chris Leigh books are worth dipping in to, if only to demonstrate that coal pens next to the track are the exception, rather than the rule, and most yards made do with bins well away from the tracks, to leave them free for other use, or, in the majority of cases, nothing at all!

[JCL]

Hi Allan, This might take you back! https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Sibsey&hl=en&ll=53.038689,0.014685&spn=0.000569,0.004128&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=10.118744,33.815918&oq=sibsey&t=h&hnear=Sibsey,+Lincolnshire,+United+Kingdom&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.038458,0.01477&panoid=dI-i_4MuwjQyDIAvA1OSdA&cbp=12,19.4,,0,5.5

 

I tell you, there are some great town and village names in Lincolnshire - Spittle-in-the-Street, Boot Hill, New York, Belchford. A little known fact (that is a fact as true as a politician's fact) is that white flour was first created in a monastery in Freiston. Some Monk decided to sift flour and bran through his socks so the legend goes.

 

"Cheers, Lincolnshire rules OK!" - it certainly does! It's a very underrated county!

 

Thanks Nick very much as well. It's a bit of a minefield isn't it? I'm going to put this on hold until I can get in touch with family members again and get a second opinion. I don't know her, but apparently the lady who used to work in the booking office still lives in Wainfleet...

[allan downes]

Totaly Amazing JCL -I can even see the very house I lived in! - it's the all white cottage behind the bungalow on Frithville Road.

 

It's all so bloody frightening!

 

Cheers.

Allan

[JCL]

It certainly is. When I'm homesick I've been known to look at Google Streetview - almost the same as being there without the airfare. It's also good if you are modelling something (close by a road) that you don't have access to. For example the crossing gates, as was, at Wainfleet or the church there.

 

Back to the coaling situation. We've had another talk about this and current consensus is that there were no staithes (10 points to everyone that said this is probably so) and that the different grades of coal were just unloaded into piles onto the ground where they were bagged and transported. They definitely used a siding at the back of the yard, and the piles were about halfway back. I think this is what I'm going to do to represent the merchant's operation unless one day I find something new.

 

On a different note, I will still be working with wood, and this time there is actually some photographic evidence. I'll be on a cattle dock. I've a map from 1912 with it on and two photos (albeit from Seacroft further down the line) that show a bank leading up to a funnel with two gates.

 

Thank-you everyone for helping out on the coaling.

 

cheers

 

Jason