ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Hi Guys My first model railway kit just arrived in the post Before I even get started I already have a question .. There is no detail at all inside the wagon and I would like at least to add some planking - I can work out what to do on the end and sides by using the moulded detail on the outside but what about the floor I assume the planks run side to side ( so short rather than down the length ) but how wide should they be ? the same as the planking on the ends and sides or something different ? Edited April 4, 2014 by ThePurplePrimer 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Yes, floor planks are transverse. On my 4mm Slaters specimens, I scribed the planks at about 7" to 8" wide without thinking too much about the accuracy (I just copied what other 4mm wagon kits did typically). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Thanks OK next question - what colour should the planks be on the inside - I am assuming a dark grubby/stained brown ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwealleans Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 a dark grubby/stained brown ? Yes, or even darker. They're impregnated with coal dust. If you can get a look at it, The 4mm Coal Wagon by John Hayes will give you a thorough tour of all the internal ironwork on one of these - there's almost as much inside as out. Paul Bartlett's wagon site may help, but I suspect this type of wagon had all but gone when Paul started taking pictures. I think I'm right in saying that Vauxhall Colliery closed in 1923 so you might do well to find pictures of one of these. John Hayes does cover this very kit, though (which is where I picked up the 1923 fact, IIRC). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Thanks JW I am going to do some planking but skip the metalwork inside for this first kit as I am really just trying to get a feel for the scale and simple kit building for rolling stock 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
66C Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Hi Rob Poppy's Wood Products does laser cut wagon inserts - details at: http://www.modelrailwaywagons.co.uk/Malbut.htm David Parkins - aka Modern Motive Power - does detailing kits for Slaters wagons including liners - details at: http://djparkins.com/acatalog/Wagons___Vehicles.html Alternatively use some 1/32 ply and scribe for planking. This will also give a bit more thickness to the wagon sides as many kits, especially etched brass, have sides that are under scale thickness. The metalwork should be easy - plasticard strip. Regards. Edited January 23, 2014 by 66C Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) Thanks 66C Some nice stuff there - the etch certainly looks interesting That said this one is just a taster - that said I couldn't bring myself to leave it just as it was so I hope this will be better than nothing ... The awl thing isn't just a point it's actually got a dip in it that leaves something like a flush rivet ( like an aircraft one ) not correct but better than nothing I am hoping Edited January 23, 2014 by ThePurplePrimer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 23, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) After building a few of those can I offer a bit of advice. It is awkward to fit the buffers and coupling later so I always fit them to the ends before starting assembly. If the buffers are bright steel then they need darkening. The easiest way is to hold them in a pair of long snipe nosed pliers in the flame of a gas cooker until the head and first part of the shank are cherry red. then drop them into a small amount of clean engine oil. I use about half an inch of it in the bottom of a small glass jar. Once they have cooled the metal is chemically blackened. The same can be done with the coupling chains if they are bright. Then assemble the buffers and couplers and fit them to the ends. It saves a lot of time and heartache later. It also saves looking for the 14BA nuts that always drop out when trying to fit them. As for painting I would start with a wash of light grey with a bit of straw colour in in, heavily thinned. then weather it with some dark weathering powder to represent the ground in coal dust. Jamie Edited June 16, 2014 by jamie92208 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 The advice from Jamie 92208 is excellent. The buffers and couplings are definitely best assembled before you start putting the body together. It saves a whole lot of hassle later. It took me many wagon assemblies to figure this out, but I suppose I am slow on the uptake. The internal detailing is well worth doing too, and personally I would paint the interiors before assembly. Another thing to do is use chemical blackening on the wheel tyres as well, as colliery wagons rarely, if ever, ran with burnished wheels. As this is an early wagon you can get away with one set of brakes if you wish, but if you do go down that road make sure the brake lever points towards the fixed end. The Dave Parkins detailing bits are first rate, but if you decide to make use of them they are much better built into a new wagon than retro-fitted onto an old one. Again, I really struggled until I figured this out, now, if I buy a second hand wagon I pull it apart completely to fit the MMP interiors. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 Thanks for the tips guys The problem is we don't have a gas hob ( or any gas here actually ) and I am keen to crack on Is it impossible to fit those bits later or just very difficult ? Also can the wheels/axles be removed and refitted after its finished ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) The bits can be fitted later, it's just very fiddly. Depends how dexterous your hands are, and how much you need to avoid swearing. It's very easy to lose those small brass nuts, and indeed those tiny springs. The wheels can just about be removed with care, but it's an awkward task. There's a risk of breaking the plastic W iron as you flex it. To be honest, I personally just use chemical blackening without the refinement of the gas burner method. (Be sure to clean the metal thoroughly with a fibre glass brush or similar before attempting to blacken.) And, just for clarity, don't put the wheelsets near a flame as the spokes are plastic and will melt. You can use paint instead of chemical blackener if you wish, but as far as the buffers are concerned there's a high risk you will gum them up. Working sprung buffers are useful in this scale, especially if you plan to use the wagon on tight radii which I guess you will. Also, even with careful priming, paint tends to flake off. So in my view, chemical blackening is the way to go. Edited January 23, 2014 by Poggy1165 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 23, 2014 Author Share Posted January 23, 2014 (edited) If you have not seen one of these kits before then this might be interesting - here is a shot of showing what the wagon insides look like ... ( note top one is as it comes and bottom after sanding and scribing ) You can see in this next shot where I am up to so far and you should be able to see where I have filled the sink marks TIP - if you need to scribe across filler try and guess when you think the filler is the same hardness as the plastic ( usually before its fully hard ) it's always guess work and don't expect a good success rate - this time I got lucky Edited January 23, 2014 by ThePurplePrimer 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin1 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 looking good,ive only done a few kits but they seem realy nice to put together,the parkside ones are good too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 (edited) Ok instead of a lunchbreak today I did this I had finished the scribing this morning and then I hit it with a thin coat of my favourite grey primer ( which dries super fast ) At lunchtime I found a suitable brown and a grey I know I wanted to use later to depict a replaced plank ( I have a sinkmark on the prepainted outside face that I need to hide ) I shot the brown on - then mixed in a spot of the grey I want to use later for the repaired plank - this lightened the brown and will hopefully tie the colours together later. I sprayed this freehand to show different weathering on various planks I could have masked it to get some real definition but I think it will be wasted effort once fully weathered - if i think it needs it I will do it by hand with a paintbrush This is just a phone camera picture but you will get some idea where I am up to so far ... Edited January 24, 2014 by ThePurplePrimer 8 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 24, 2014 Author Share Posted January 24, 2014 I did this bit when I was supposed to be having a tea break These are some of the planks that have been swapped out at some point Its the grey VERY heavily thinned and then brushed in the direction of the planks grain, about 5 thin coats try to emulate some grain effect ( I added this with coarse wet and dry before I scribed the planks ) The next bit will be a super thin oil wash - I would usually only do this over a gloss clear coat but this time I want it to get in the very thin texture of the 'grain' so I get one chance to get it right - wish me luck 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poggy1165 Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Looks very good indeed. Convincing unpainted wood is hard to do. I know. I get it right about one time in every eight. I like the bolts too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Looks very good indeed. Convincing unpainted wood is hard to do. I know. I get it right about one time in every eight. I like the bolts too. I agree. Why is unpainted wood so hard to simulate convincingly? I also struggle with unpainted concrete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Oil wash came out ok - slightly understated but in my opinion too little is preferable to too much Once the oil wash was dry enough to handle I used a thin acrylic black wash to pick out the bolts / rivets and the doors Need to leave this surface now for a few days which is a downside of oils I am not sure this shows up properly - might do a macro shot later Edited January 26, 2014 by ThePurplePrimer 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 I agree. Why is unpainted wood so hard to simulate convincingly? I also struggle with unpainted concrete. I have never tried concrete before - sounds like it would be really tricky yo get right - there is a lot going on in that surface. I have never tried any buildings - but love the ones you have just built for your new layout - very impressive but a little daunting too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flexible_coupling Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 That's very convincing - if a little "clean" - I presume you intend to add coal dust? You've done well with picking out the effective bolt-representing notches, tricks the eye as it should, smartly done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Hi FC Yes I intend to dirty up later - using mig powders I think ( I am not very experienced with them ) and I suppose I need to get some real coal from somewhere - I assume that's what people use to represent coal ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThePurplePrimer Posted January 26, 2014 Author Share Posted January 26, 2014 Guys I have a question - the numbering decals that came with the kit are methfix - never used these. Can I use any of my normal decals setting solutions or do I need to go and buy a bottle of Meths - that's the purple stuff is it ???????? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted January 26, 2014 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) Guys I have a question - the numbering decals that came with the kit are methfix - never used these. Can I use any of my normal decals setting solutions or do I need to go and buy a bottle of Meths - that's the purple stuff is it ???????? Yes is the simple answer then use 50: 50 Meths and water as a setting solution. First of all cut out the section you want to fix and peel off the covering paper on the glue side that will fix to the wagon. The put a little meths on where you want it to go and gently press the decal onto the meths. Position it carefully then leave it to dry. Once it's dry wet the thicker backing paper with water, leave for a minute then slide it off and then gently dab the decal dry. It leaves the decal without the usual carrier film. Jamie Edited January 26, 2014 by jamie92208 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hartleymartin Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Reading this thread has reminded me why I love O gauge so much. It is really a great builder's scale and it isn't too hard to improve a model from the stock kit.I recently assembled a slaters MR 3-plank drop-side wagon. I forgot all about scribing the floor until I had already assembled it. I think that the best course of action is to use a sheet of 0.5mm thick scribed styrene sheet to add the floor planking. It is likely that this wagon will end up with a removable load that will more or less remain permanently in the wagon and the extra bit of work will be hidden. It is still worth it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
81A Oldoak Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 Another enhancement you may wish to consider is fitting the protective metal strips that often ran along the exposed edge of the top planks on open wagons. This feature can be seen in the linked photo of a Midland Railway open. I achieve this effect by welding a strip of plasticard, usually Evergeen, to the plank and making the clips that hold the strip in place from a small length of the same strip folded and welded in place. It is a small touch that requires very little time and effort, but does make a difference. https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=open+railway+wagon&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=SCrmUvLxJJCS7AbBm4HgBw&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=877#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=ZW8hDHnWA54_KM%253A%3BV2lenzTeQ0t_YM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.srpsmuseum.org.uk%252Fimages%252F10104%252F10104.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.srpsmuseum.org.uk%252F10104.htm%3B600%3B400 Regards, Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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