Poles, Telegraph Wires and Cables.

[LNERGE]

The joys of pole work. Sitting up there in the sleet with the MOX iron spluttering away at the other end of the arm. Alf Ansafety, who's 'e when e's at 'ome.

 

Actually it was refitting the pole behind the box in this shot http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrthl1100.htm into a terminal pole post-electrification of the Trent Valley. It hadn't been done properly at the time and the old arms were falling off because they still had spindles instead of J-Bolts. Looks like I made a reasonable job of it.

I have enough kit to do the odd pole job now and then. Arms, spindles and insulators are the easy bit. Finding suitable arresters is getting harder..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/6583178175/

 

There are 12 wires on this job. I think it was around 2 years of scrounging to find enough serviceable potheads and arresters.

Edited April 18, 2014 by LNERGE

[LNERGE]

A purpose made LNER pole book..

 

[Merfyn Jones]

I had one of those pole route books but it got used for cable rigs in later life.

 

Last time I did a pole route repair, c1981 near Llanrwst with my old pal Mick.

 

 

[Harry]

Does anyone know what diameter the modern orange cable pipes are that pass under the track?

 

I'm guessing about 4" (1.3mm in 4mm scale and about 0.65mm in 2mm) but would be handy to know so they don't look massively under or over scale.

 

Many thanks - an interesting thread.

[TheSignalEngineer]

Nominally 4" pipe, so approx 1.3-1.5mm in 4mm scale would look right.

[PinzaC55]

TRACKWORK 462.jpg

 Pole route at Kirksandall Jct Eastern Region, February 1980. 

 

Surely that is Stainforth & Hatfield, not Kirk Sandall?

 

The Wensleydale line was one of the last holdouts of ancient telegraph poles with "staggered" arms and the last time I volunteered there (late 2004) they were still in situ though they lost their wires in 1982 when the line was designalled. There's one at Finghall Lane station with a slight warp to the pole which can be seen on c.1910 photos! Here is the superb Finghall Lane Up Distant in 1978 with a staggered pole behind it.

Finghall Lane Up Distant 1978 par PinzaC55, on ipernity

[micknich2003]

Correct, it is Stainforth, and my mistake, I have altered the original captions. Thanks, Mick.

[melmerby]

Was Railway pole wiring done to the same practices as was PO telephones?

 

Although I didn't work on O/H I had a grounding in pole work when I started as everyone had t have.

I remember using a ratchet to tension the CdCu wire and a copper sleeve which was crimped onto the wire after it was looped around the pot.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

Nice shot here of the wires from the pole to signals:

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt1072.htm

 

There is also a nice big array of arms in the background

 

Keith

[Judge Dread]

Was Railway pole wiring done to the same practices as was PO telephones?

 

Although I didn't work on O/H I had a grounding in pole work when I started as everyone had t have.

I remember using a ratchet to tension the CdCu wire and a copper sleeve which was crimped onto the wire after it was looped around the pot.

 

Keith

I can shed a little light here having gone aloft for both organisations.

When I left school in 1959 and when onto the Signal &Telegraph dept. in Hull, the method of joining overheads had just changed from the upper type in my crude sketch of a Britannia Joint. The overheads were held together, overlapping and a binding wire was used as indicated. Then the whole thing was soldered and the ends turned out at a right angle and cut off. The new method used an oval shaped copper tube which was slotted over the conductors and with two pairs of special pliers, one gripped on at each end of the tube, they were turned, in opposite directions so as the tube was twisted. Then the ends were bent out and cut off. No soldering, no lighting fires at the base of the pole, no throwing the soldering iron up the pole.

"Open wires" were still in existence in some parts of Hull when I joined the Hull Corporation Telephone dept. in 1981 but were renewed and not maintained by then.  The terminating wires were held by a taped copper sleeve with a wedge pressed in to it. Spans between poles had long gone!    

[melmerby]

I can shed a little light here having gone aloft for both organisations.

. The new method used an oval shaped copper tube which was slotted over the conductors and with two pairs of special pliers, one gripped on at each end of the tube, they were turned, in opposite directions so as the tube was twisted. Then the ends were bent out and cut off.

That sounds about right. I remember the sleeve was slipped over the conductors and twisted.

 

Keith

[TheSignalEngineer]

I remember using the sleeves for fixing broken wires c1967, and tensioning with the ratchet clamped onto the wire. I also used the traditional soldered joint for making off at terminal poles and box poles.

 

Much of BR pole work was the same as the GPO, in fact many of the items in the railway stores were referred to by PO numbers such as PO5000 Drop Wire, and we used GPO tool kits.

[Judge Dread]

Thinking of similar work styles, here's a souvenir from Hull telephones which I never used there but as mentioned in my previous post, I certainly did with B.R.

In a reverse manner, I never used a pole belt with B.R. but the advantage of a pole with several arms is that you can wrap your legs through one of them. H  & S? Sorry, you are some 55 years too late. Mind you I did fall from a pole as I descended, caused by a step pulling out. I fell into a gorse bush and damaged myself more extracting myself from it!

Along with a fellow "junior", we found in a cupboard, in the mess van, a set of "climbing irons" and demanded to know how they worked. A demonstration was organised and then it was our turn. The instruction was "Don't go too high!". My colleague went first and climbed up a couple "steps". Easy, peasy but when he came to descend, he found he was stuck and had to be rescued. the spikes were thrown back in cupboard with the words, "Now you know why they are there, leave them there!"

[Clive Mortimore]

I hope theese are helpful, once you have all the wires in place they need somewhere to go, so here are some boxes for them.

 

Sorry about the quality of these but my copies appear to be photocopies of photocopies.

 

Edited April 26, 2014 by Clive Mortimore

[TheSignalEngineer]

Thanks Clive. An often ignored area, these show the BR standard type and layout used on most jobs since the mid 1970s. The BR standard was based on those made by Lawden Engineering, I believe for the Eastern Region.

 

Interestingly BRS-SM 432/1 also shows the slight differences in profile of the ones made by the major contractors at the time. 

 

The last drawing, BRS-SM 840, shows the layout of an embankment platform made from concrete and timber. These were used up to about the 1990s when galvanised steel took over.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

In a reverse manner, I never used a pole belt with B.R. but the advantage of a pole with several arms is that you can wrap your legs through one of them. H  & S? Sorry, you are some 55 years too late. Mind you I did fall from a pole as I descended, caused by a step pulling out. I fell into a gorse bush and damaged myself more extracting myself from it!

 

My Dad was in the Fire Brigade and he taught me the right way to climb ladders and lock yourself on so you could use both hands to work without fear of falling off. 

 

 

Along with a fellow "junior", we found in a cupboard, in the mess van, a set of "climbing irons" and demanded to know how they worked. A demonstration was organised and then it was our turn. The instruction was "Don't go too high!". My colleague went first and climbed up a couple "steps". Easy, peasy but when he came to descend, he found he was stuck and had to be rescued. the spikes were thrown back in cupboard with the words, "Now you know why they are there, leave them there!"

I was taught how to use climbing irons, but only did it once in anger, when we went to fix a failure in mid-section and couldn't get a lift there for the pole ladder. Got dropped off by a Class 1 train which had been stopped and cautioned because the broken wire was causing a block failure, the only problem being that once the fault was fixed we had to walk two miles back to the station.

[Old Gringo]

A very interesting thread developing Eric and lots of great pictures and real prototype information surfacing, like the plans of point machines from Clive Mortimore.

 

I was especially interested in the reply from Mick Nicholson (Post 19) which included a diagram from page 238 of the book 'Railway Signalling & Communications Installation and Maintenance'.

 

This book costing 8 Shillings - and first published in 1941  by St. Margarets Technical Press Ltd. (operating from the same address as the Railway Gazette) - appears to be the 'encyclopedia' for how the signalling system and all the ancillary equipment were set up for the steam-powered railway.  Therefore, IMO, it's pretty good for any information for the thirty year period 1938 to 1968.

 

As an enthusiast and modeller (as opposed to career railwaymen like many of the contributors here) I have found this book very useful for answers to the sort of questions that the majority of modellers need to know.  For instance:

 

Q.1. On which side of the railway would the poles usually be sited?

 

Page 223 tells us; "The whole of the route must first be surveyed and the position of each pole decided from the following considerations . . . . In general it is advisable for the route to follow the inside radius of curves, so that if a wire comes off, or a pole is pulled over, the running lines will not be fouled.  Sharp angles being avoided to reduce the amount of staying required.  Sudden changes in the horizontal level of the wires is also undesirable . . . and a route adopted avoiding abrupt variations of ground level, which might necessitate extra long poles being erected." 

So that's why Ratio only make one size of pole!!

 

Q.2. What was the average distance between telegraph poles alongside the railway and why would this vary?

 

Page 223 tells us; "the average distance between poles is 65 yards, however around curves this may be reduced to 50, or 60 yards depending on the radius of the curve".  (The distance may also be reduced if ground conditions are liable to subsidence, etc.) However, "As each insulator is a source of leakage, it is inadvisable to reduce the spans below these figures" (50 yards is 600mm in 00/EM/P4).

Page 224: "The nature of the ground is very important  . . . and a considerably longer length pole may be necessary in soft or 'made up' ground".  A table for length of pole and depth of hole follows followed by the maxim, "Short poles are also less costly"!

 

What the text doesn't say is the minimum distance allowed between a pole line and the track.  Perhaps this is covered by the structure clearance diagrams?  If so, is the length of the pole the determining factor? Edit: So should they be sited at a distance away equivalent to their height in case of a problem?

 

Q.3. How high should the wires be when crossing a road or a railway?  And obviously the answer here will directly affect the height of the pole employed at these locations.

 

Page 224 says; "Minimum heights for the lowest wires crossing roads and railways are:

 

Occupation crossings: 16 feet from ground level.

Main Roads: 20 feet from ground level. 

Railways: 17 feet from RAIL level (my caps). 

The span in all these cases should be as short as possible and the poles well stayed."

 

As an average (but trying to be accurate) modeller, those were my first questions and the book provided the answers outlined above, which I believe applied to the steam age railway.

 

I hope that they are correct and the information proves useful.

 

How do the answers differ in the transition era and beyond?

 

All the best,

John

[TheSignalEngineer]

Hi John

 

Here's some examples at Kenilworth Junction that show typical pole routes on a medium class line with junction that would be similar to BCB. Firstly the box was in the middle of the junction and there was a route down the outside of each line going north and the Up side going south. The poles opposite the box had arms going both ways and there was a pole in the middle at the box itself

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr/kenilworthjunction/lnwrkj2054.jpg

 

This one shows the box pole very well and an interesting variation on the line to Coventry, note the wires actually go under the bridge through the arch next to the track

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwr/kenilworthjunction/lnwrkj2051.jpg

 

The distance of the poles from the track is typical for such a line on the LMR in my experience. The stay rod on the track side would go into the ground approximately 6'-8' from the track. In other cases it was at the top of the cutting of there was a wide strip inside the fence to avoid having to dig a deep hole in the cutting face, and sometimes at the bottom of an embankment to avoid going into made-up ground.

 

On the Birmingham Division a lot of pole routes disappeared between 1962 and 1969 with resignalling and electrification. Following that we had a rolling programme to get rid of the remaining routes which were a magnet for thieves and becoming increasingly difficult to maintain. That started around 1970-71 and continued until the 1980s. Railway pole routes changed very little from the steam era until they disappeared from the scene. A few had the wires replaced by self-supporting cables but that was all.

 

Eric 

[The Johnster]

Thank you Andy for redirecting my absurdly amateur enquiry to this very definitve and erudite thread.  I now know that my poles need to be about 600mm, just under 2 feet, apart, and that the wire run needs to cross to the other side of the track, probably at the 'toe' of the station throat, in order to be prototypically on the inside radius of a curve; this is exactly the information that I needed. 

 

Having got it, I may well apply Rule 1 to it and space the poles about 18 inches apart for visual effect, which, if it doesn't look too wrong, should enhance an impression that the visually scenic part of the layout is longer than it really is; I have already tapered platforms and attempted to manipulate sight lines in order to achieve this, and if the telegraph poles enhance the effect, that is all to the good, isn't it!

[Junctionmad]

Just read this very interesting thread , my grandfather started off as a linesman for the GPO in Ireland , just after the first war. Interesting in Ireland , all poles and wires were the property of the GPO , The railway company's had no hand act or part in them. This included any signalling or box to box communication, which was maintained by the GPO . This extended to bell signals and the ETS machines and Harper block instruments. It meant that , for example ETS machines were also maintained by the GPO and equally there no electrical connections between any GPO equipment and the railway or its signals. It meant ETS machines were mechanically interlocked with starting signals rather then have electrical interconnections !

 

The situation remain right up till the demise of semaphore signalling in 2005

[iands]

The joys of pole work. Sitting up there in the sleet with the MOX iron spluttering away at the other end of the arm. Alf Ansafety, who's 'e when e's at 'ome.

 

Actually it was refitting the pole behind the box in this shot http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/mrthl1100.htm into a terminal pole post-electrification of the Trent Valley. It hadn't been done properly at the time and the old arms were falling off because they still had spindles instead of J-Bolts. Looks like I made a reasonable job of it.

Apologies, but I've only just found this thread. Re the "joys of pole work", I remember being up a pole at Strensall SB in the mid 70s. I was a trainee with the York-Malton S&T lineman at the time and was my introduction to the MOX iron, although this was a nice sunny day so there wasn't much spluttering.

 

On another point re the pole routes, certainly in parts of the former NER areas (and may well have occurred in other areas) a single pot was placed at the very top of the pole (e.g. not on one of the arms) for the block bell circuit, the return leg being via "earth". On hot sunny days (which we always seemed to get back then) the signallers would occasionally encounter problems with the block bell circuit not working correctly due to a higher than normal earth resistance - the answer? Simple, the instruction from the S&T lineman was for the signaller to go to the bottom of the pole where the earth connection was and pour out a bucket of water to improve the connectivity - worked every time!

 

Regards, Ian.

[Coppercap]

On another point re the pole routes, certainly in parts of the former NER areas (and may well have occurred in other areas) a single pot was placed at the very top of the pole (e.g. not on one of the arms) for the block bell circuit, the return leg being via "earth". On hot sunny days (which we always seemed to get back then) the signallers would occasionally encounter problems with the block bell circuit not working correctly due to a higher than normal earth resistance - the answer? Simple, the instruction from the S&T lineman was for the signaller to go to the bottom of the pole where the earth connection was and pour out a bucket of water to improve the connectivity - worked every time!

Regards, Ian.

In the days of old party line (correctly 'shared service') GPO/PO/BT telephone lines, it was quite common during a long dry spell for one or both circuits not to work, i.e. no dialling tone, nor bell ringing - pressing the button on the phone earthed one leg of the line, pulling dialling tone, and the line was also 'earth ringing'. When reported to the engineers, they'd first suggest giving the earth a really good watering, and try it later after the water had soaked in. Many customers didn't even know they had an earth (ours was just outside the front door). Many times an engineer wasn't required to visit the customer by this simple operation. There was the old joke about the little old lady who's dog always went berserk when the phone rang when it was outside tied up to a bit of old wire outside the door. The dog had a metal chain for a lead... Edited October 22, 2017 by Coppercap

[iands]

In the days of old party line (correctly 'shared service') GPO/PO/BT telephone lines, it was quite common during a long dry spell for one or both circuits not to work, i.e. no dialling tone, nor bell ringing - pressing the button on the phone earthed one leg of the line, pulling dialling tone, and the line was also 'earth ringing'. When reported to the engineers, they'd first suggest giving the earth a really good watering, and try it later after the water had soaked in. Many customers didn't even know they had an earth (ours was just outside the front door). Many times an engineer wasn't required to visit the customer by this simple operation. There was the old joke about the little old lady who's dog always went berserk when the phone rang when it was outside tied up to a bit of old wire outside the door. The dog had a metal chain for a lead...

Hi Coppercap,

 

I've also come across the tale of the dog going beserk everytime the phone rang due to being tied up to the 'earth'. Happy days - though not for the dog, obviously!

 

Regards, Ian.

[melmerby]

In the days of old party line (correctly 'shared service') GPO/PO/BT telephone lines, it was quite common during a long dry spell for one or both circuits not to work, i.e. no dialling tone, nor bell ringing - pressing the button on the phone earthed one leg of the line, pulling dialling tone, and the line was also 'earth ringing'. When reported to the engineers, they'd first suggest giving the earth a really good watering, and try it later after the water had soaked in. Many customers didn't even know they had an earth (ours was just outside the front door). Many times an engineer wasn't required to visit the customer by this simple operation. There was the old joke about the little old lady who's dog always went berserk when the phone rang when it was outside tied up to a bit of old wire outside the door. The dog had a metal chain for a lead...

One party used the "A" leg and earth and the other party used "B" leg and earth for ringing/metering

 

I was shown by a friend who was on the telephones with the GPO that if you crossed over the fuses in your house any call you made would be metered on the other party's line!

I wonder how much of that went on by those "in the know"?

 

Keith

[Coppercap]

One party used the "A" leg and earth and the other party used "B" leg and earth for ringing/metering

 

I was shown by a friend who was on the telephones with the GPO that if you crossed over the fuses in your house any call you made would be metered on the other party's line!

I wonder how much of that went on by those "in the know"?

 

Keith

I'm well aware of how it worked (a former apprentice, I fitted a few, and then worked in exchanges for over 30 years). I don't know what the 'fuses' are to which you refer, but our home phone installed mid-60's and I don't recall any, nor did I see any on our friend's which was a mid-50's jobbie with 300-type telephone. If certain connections were crossed I was told you could have the wrong number's dialling tone (and therefore metering), yet still get correct incoming calls. It also had to be wired correctly in the exchange to provide the correct line's dialling tone and metering..

A colleague got the sack in the digital age - programmed his mum's line to meter on a spare number! You could do that easily in pre-digital exchanges, but with digital the 'meters' were all still read, to throw up any anomalies - as my colleague found out to his cost!