SEVENOAKS MODEL RAIL SHOW

[russianlayout]

This will be a good size show with space for 18 to 25 layouts and up to 20 traders and held in a large school complex about 800 meters from both Sevenoaks and Bat and Ball BR stations with easy free onsite a street parking.  

 

The date is Sunday 12th July    10am - 4pm

 

SEVENOAKS MODEL RAILWAY SHOW

Sevenoaks Primary School

Bradbourse Park Road

Sevenoaks

Kent

TN13 3LB

 

Last year we ran a smaller show on London that had a one day footfall of over 900 people and again our marketing machine will come into action for our Sevenoaks show.   

 

A number of layouts already confirmed and if you would like to bring a layout as a club or individual, please contact me.

 

Traders - we are offering one free 12ft space for a trader who does paints, glue, brushes and general modelling tools as often these are hard tio find at shows, so we class that as an attraction.  

 

Like our London show, the chance to pre book tickets at a cheaper rate is available via web or our box office. 

 

We also have outdoor secure space for any larger live steam exhibits.

 

see

 

www.modelrailwayexhibition.com

[dasatcopthorne]

This will be a good size show with space for 18 to 25 layouts and up to 20 traders and held in a large school complex about 800 meters from both Sevenoaks and Bat and Ball BR stations with easy free onsite a street parking.  

 

The date is Sunday 12th July    10am - 4pm

 

SEVENOAKS MODEL RAILWAY SHOW

Sevenoaks Primary School

Bradbourse Park Road

Sevenoaks

Kent

TN13 3LB

 

Last year we ran a smaller show on London that had a one day footfall of over 900 people and again our marketing machine will come into action for our Sevenoaks show.   

 

A number of layouts already confirmed and if you would like to bring a layout as a club or individual, please contact me.

 

Traders - we are offering one free 12ft space for a trader who does paints, glue, brushes and general modelling tools as often these are hard tio find at shows, so we class that as an attraction.  

 

Like our London show, the chance to pre book tickets at a cheaper rate is available via web or our box office. 

 

We also have outdoor secure space for any larger live steam exhibits.

 

see

 

www.modelrailwayexhibition.com

 

Hello Russianlayout

 

Please could you explain the purpose of this exhibition.

 

Is it to gain income for a Model Railway Club, Charity Donation or personal profit?

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I find it odd that layouts and traders are being offered an open invite to attend; normally it is for the exhibition manager to invite them to ensure balance and quality control. A show that is only around nine months away I would have expected to have seen confirmed traders and more than just five layouts on the website by now rather than just marketing spin. Also having some kind of indication of who is the organizing body is helpful too.

David

[dasatcopthorne]

Dave, why is this important to you?

 

Terry

 

Well. Those who offer to support you and bring exhibits will wonder exactly who they are supporting.

 

I see that you had a show in New Cross or somewhere around there and now a show in Sevenoaks.

 

Is this just a business opportunity or an actual Model Railway Club endeavouring to fun Club activities?

 

Dave

[russianlayout]

David

 

It is a commercial show, it does state on our website that we are a London Theatre and those attending last year knew that information also.  It is and has never been a secret in fact we use it as a plus as we have our own ticketing and box office and marketing team.  Also I personally do invite layouts and attend exhibitions where I meet exhibitors and last year that is how I got most of the layouts to attend. I also am a modeller and exhibitor and have a second layout coming to Sevenoaks in July.   

 

I am not offering an open invitation  to traders or exhibitors but at the same time I can't be at every show so yes they can apply and they have done already.   I am finding similar traders so looking which ones to pick as don't want just all used stock etc.

 

Again last year the 20 layouts at our show knew what they were supporting, and knew it was a commercial venture and which was a professionally run show with nearly 900 people coming on the single day and traders, well they are commercial also mostly so for them I don't think they would refuse a show because the money is not going to a model railway club, as they are I think more interested in footfall and selling on the day.   

 

Also being commercial we don't have volunteers but paid staff doing everything on the day, again this may be a problem for you?

 

I only thought of doing last years show in Feb and in a matter of weeks had a full show, so this year actually I class putting this event together as doing it early.  

 

We have 11 layouts booked now and one cancelled as couldn't get the transport.

 

We will also be doing New Cross again this year as it worked well last year and doing the beer festival alongside it. 

 

We are not a model club as stated and do bring fun activities as last year in New Cross, the exhibitors were impressed with the large amount of families who attended and also the wide range of ethnic groups, so ball back in your court David, tell me what you have done to make this great hobby accessible to a wider audience, to bring in new blood to the model railway world.   You obviously from your web connection on your post have something to do with another show, so having real problems trying to work out why you so worried about my show as I have no intention of doing a show near you and yours is obviously a lot bigger.  We published what trade stands would have to pay to attend our show on our website and we priced it at the going rate for the show, so again nothing we are doing is secretive.  

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have no problem with your show even if it is commercial or not, the Ally Pally, Doncaster and Peterborough are also commercial being run by Warners.

Normally a club show layouts would ask for out of pocket expenses if a show if a layout feels their attendance is making profit for a person or company I would expect the exhibition to pay for evening meals and other things which most exhibitors may waver at a club show, I think that is why Dave was asking the question.

I am not too sure why you asked what I have done to make the hobby assemble, but as you ask I have always tried to give encouragement to anyone interested in railway modelling and via posts on here and elsewhere have tried to give tips and help to anyone who asks, and I make no secret on what I do or how I do things, plus have had a number of articles published in MRJ as well as being guest editor. Possibly more importantly I have supported my local club as a member since 1980 and think I have been to every show they have staged since I joined, duties from selling tickets on the door, making teas and a whole host of other things that were asked of me. From experience gained in doing this I took the job as exhibition manager for the club running Railex which has always been successful although I have always listened to other people’s views on ways to improve things and taken action if required but generally think I get it right.

As for families attending that great but most traders require modellers to attend to buy their wares if they don’t make money they won’t attend the following year.

I am sure if you read through relevant posts on here you will get the general feel of what people like and expect at a model railway exhibition, I just thought your post and web site was a little too full of spin and not enough substance, I just think your posts and website would benefit if they told us more what the show is about to appeal to people on here at least, to make them want to visit.

David

[russianlayout]

Maybe then if that was Dave's  question, he  should have asked if we cover out of pocket expenses, which we do and always have done and that includes petrol, meals, brekkie and overnight accommodation if needed.  

 

I have found the opposite to what you've experienced at your show in that every show manager I have spoken to pays expenses and food for club shows and it is only the charity ones where exhibitors are more likely to waive their expenses.  So well done you for saving some expenses which will help your club in the long run. 

 

In relation to traders, yes of course they need modellers to attend and they did at New Cross and this is where I differ from other shows is that I fully class the traders as an attraction not just a way to recoup some of the costs of putting on the show, hence why last year we charged all the traders nothing to attend which caused some uproar from other show managers as they felt it was not playing by the rules.  Also I set the traders rates low, so I can then be selective in who to have and also open it up to the small traders with maybe very unique wares or skills.  On our website yes, we do state what we charge traders, again nothing wrong with that as it is on the traders page, modellers I don't think care what a trader pays or that aspect.  Our website gives clear instructions about the location, the parking, the map, train routes and being able to pre buy tickets, which again was poo poo'd last year as people who go to model shows never pre buy tickets.   Nearly 25% did as they got it cheaper and also cuts down on staffing and queues at the entrance.  We also put a piccy up of the layouts and like last year will be writing a full biog on each, so I think actually our site is more user friendly and informative then a number of exhibition sites, so can't see where your coming from on that one. 

 

  

 

 

See below

 

Traders - we are offering one free 12ft space for a trader who does paints, glue, brushes and general modelling tools as often these are hard to find at shows, so we class that as an attraction.  

 

 

This is what I wrote in the original post, so please tell me where that sounds like full of spin, in fact commercially it is something not expected,  Many shows have a lack of these goods, hence why class such a trader as an attraction aimed at the modeller, and yes I do listen to modellers and event organisers, some who if I took their advice, I would not have run New Cross last year as they said, wrong area, wrong time of year and I had no experience of running such a complex operation. I remember one afternoon last year sitting in a big church hall with a number of exhibitors  who only had about 8/10 people looking around and being told by that exhibition manager that my show won't work as am doing it all wrong, and he could not see the irony of his comments all around him. 

 

Ended up that New Cross worked and on the day I also learnt  lots about aspects which I could improve on for other shows, but most of the things we did went to plan and logistically worked well. 

 

 Other Exhibition Managers gave me advice on best insurance, data base mapping and that was useful, but most of my way of running a show comes from doing the same footwork as you but instead of working at or running shows, I went as a visitor and modeller, which you can learn a lot more about model railway shows then attending as a volunteer or helper as you see it from the customers point of view. 

 

 

We also returned the favour to other exhibition managers by showing them how they can make savings on flyers, posters and social media advertising as were shocked at the prices they pay compared to us, you buy large quantities of print on a weekly basis.  Again happy to help any exhibition manager with that as is what should be happening, commercial, club or charity.

 

Unfortunately your posts do come across as 'You have no right to be doing model railway exhibitions and what permission have to got from the old guard'  Which is the same as we got last year and I don't think that is fair as I am not stepping on anyones toes, not steamrolling in on an area where there is a club exhibition already or taking any income from other shows as mine are planned when there are no other local shows.  I am not a newbie to running these size events as that is what I do each day and not a newby to model railways, I have looked at the concept from a separate angle, ie the end users be it the visitor and trader who are the customers.   We made so errors last year such as having some bottlenecks when it got too crowded and having the free tea and coffee for the traders and exhibitors up a flight of stairs and I have learn't from that.  I also know we did somethings very right and refreshing including refusing to take some brilliant layouts because the exhibitors refused to engage with me as a punter at a show and that was my one bug bear of why I wanted to run a model railway show and look at it in another way, hence why I only select layouts where I know someone has the ability and skill to engage with the public and not like many shows where they are playing trains and the public are a distraction. 

 

 

 If anything I should be thanking you as in past 24 hours two fresh emails have come in from traders, who may not have been aware of our show if they hadn't been following this posting. 

 

 

You say

 

 

I am sure if you read through relevant posts on here you will get the general feel of what people like and expect at a model railway exhibition,

 

Years running such an event and making teas is all well and good as you state on your post but I bet what you have gained in the logistics side of running such events and asking what people want is not as good as doing what we try and do and recommend every exhibition manager does, get out there as a punter at other shows and actually see what is like and interact with the exhibitors, you will be shocked at front line customer experience from catering, directions, lack of info, rude exhibitors, lack of steps for the little ones to see the trains and two many traders competing with the same wares.   

[AndrewC]

If it's as enjoyable as the New Cross one was last summer it'll be well worth visiting. For a first time effort it put a lot of established exhibitions to shame in the form of organisation, promotion, and quality. A fresh pair of eyes and a different attitude towards the whole exhibition really makes a difference.

 

I'm looking forward to both.

[russianlayout]

Any exhibition managers for the record, we pay £79 inc delivery for 5000 A5 double sided full colour flyers with a 6 day turnaround, so if you paying lots more, feel free to email me and I will send the printers details.

 

Also have a really good cheap event programme printer in Catford, who does basic bw to quality full colour.  We paid £80 for 500 8 page programmes BW last year, mistake we made was we needed more so this year £104 for 1000 8 page A5 programme booklets.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have found the opposite to what you've experienced at your show in that every show manager I have spoken to pays expenses and food for club shows and it is only the charity ones where exhibitors are more likely to waive their expenses. So well done you for saving some expenses which will help your club in the long run.

 

We have always paid all expences that have been asked by our layouts and demostratiors, my point was if it’s a commercial show layouts would be in there right to claim their costs based on a wage for attending or giving up their own time rather than just the normal out of pocket cost most claim, Would you personally give up a day of your own time if you knew you free time was making profit for an person or company?

 

In relation to traders, yes of course they need modelers to attend and they did at New Cross and this is where I differ from other shows is that I fully class the traders as an attraction not just a way to recoup some of the costs of putting on the show, hence why last year we charged all the traders nothing to attend which caused some uproar from other show managers as they felt it was not playing by the rules. Also I set the traders rates low, so I can then be selective in who to have and also open it up to the small traders with maybe very unique wares or skills. On our website yes, we do state what we charge traders, again nothing wrong with that as it is on the trader’s page, modelers I don't think care what a trader pays or that aspect. Our website gives clear instructions about the location, the parking, the map, train routes and being able to pre buy tickets, which again was poo poo'd last year as people who go to model shows never pre buy tickets. Nearly 25% did as they got it cheaper and also cuts down on staffing and queues at the entrance. We also put a piccy up of the layouts and like last year will be writing a full biog on each, so I think actually our site is more user friendly and informative then a number of exhibition sites, so can't see where your coming from on that one.

 

I too think traders are very important as they will return year after year is the show is good for them, in fact they are more important than the layouts, At Railex I think we have the biggest range of smaller specialist traders of any show in the country (possibly including Warley) I invite the traders who had supported us the previous year for the following year, and have a healthy waiting list of traders who want to attend, but stipulate that any new trader needs to manufacture their own range of products. Even if you offer free trade space the trader they will need to spend money getting to the show and their food and accommodation if required. So before they make a penny profit need to cover all of the above, on top there is there stand rent. Traders have told me many times although families and the general public may increase the door gate of the exhibition they are unlikely to buy specialist bits and bobs they are selling, it is the modelers that traders want through the door, If they don’t make money they won’t return the following year.


This is what I wrote in the original post, so please tell me where that sounds like full of spin, in fact commercially it is something not expected, Many shows have a lack of these goods, hence why class such a trader as an attraction aimed at the modeler, and yes I do listen to modelers and event organizers, some who if I took their advice, I would not have run New Cross last year as they said, wrong area, wrong time of year and I had no experience of running such a complex operation. I remember one afternoon last year sitting in a big church hall with a number of exhibitors who only had about 8/10 people looking around and being told by that exhibition manager that my show won't work as am doing it all wrong, and he could not see the irony of his comments all around him.

You have only listed five confirmed layout and no confirmed traders as I can see only the price structure for prospective trade. I would have expected more substance on what is contained in the show to make it attractive for visitors to know what to expect, how about a picture of the venue, pictures of your previous show etc.? At least you have a web presence there are plenty of shows that don’t and wonder why there attendance is low.

Ended up that New Cross worked and on the day I also learnt lots about aspects which I could improve on for other shows, but most of the things we did went to plan and logistically worked well.
Other Exhibition Managers gave me advice on best insurance, data base mapping and that was useful, but most of my way of running a show comes from doing the same footwork as you but instead of working at or running shows, I went as a visitor and modeler, which you can learn a lot more about model railway shows then attending as a volunteer or helper as you see it from the customers point of view.
I am sure there are plenty on exhibition managers on here who give good advice freely but it seems you want to do things your own way which is fine but years of experience from other just may just be worth listening to.

We also returned the favour to other exhibition managers by showing them how they can make savings on flyers, posters and social media advertising as were shocked at the prices they pay compared to us, you buy large quantities of print on a weekly basis. Again happy to help any exhibition manager with that as is what should be happening, commercial, club or charity.
Unfortunately your posts do come across as 'You have no right to be doing model railway exhibitions and what permission have to got from the old guard' Which is the same as we got last year and I don't think that is fair as I am not stepping on anyones toes, not steamrolling in on an area where there is a club exhibition already or taking any income from other shows as mine are planned when there are no other local shows. I am not a newbie to running these size events as that is what I do each day and not a newby to model railways, I have looked at the concept from a separate angle, ie the end users be it the visitor and trader who are the customers. We made so errors last year such as having some bottlenecks when it got too crowded and having the free tea and coffee for the traders and exhibitors up a flight of stairs and I have learn't from that. I also know we did somethings very right and refreshing including refusing to take some brilliant layouts because the exhibitors refused to engage with me as a punter at a show and that was my one bug bear of why I wanted to run a model railway show and look at it in another way, hence why I only select layouts where I know someone has the ability and skill to engage with the public and not like many shows where they are playing trains and the public are a distraction.

If my posts came across as “You have no right doing a model railway show” that was not what was intended if fact I will and have given advise freely if I think something could be improved or pitfalls avoided, from many years’ experience, If you go though many of exhibition threads on RMWeb regarding organization demos what make a good show I am sure it would be useful for you.
If you have ever operated a layout at an exhibition you would know unless is is something very simple it is very hard to run trains and talk to people at the same time, just as off putting as nobody engaging with you is the operator having a chat with somebody


I am sure if you read through relevant posts on here you will get the general feel of what people like and expect at a model railway exhibition,

Years running such an event and making teas is all well and good as you state on your post but I bet what you have gained in the logistics side of running such events and asking what people want is not as good as doing what we try and do and recommend every exhibition manager does, get out there as a punter at other shows and actually see what is like and interact with the exhibitors, you will be shocked at front line customer experience from catering, directions, lack of info, rude exhibitors, lack of steps for the little ones to see the trains and two many traders competing with the same wares.
I have been to many shows as an exhibitor with a layout including small local ones and the big ones like York, Ally Pally, and Warley also; also I attend shows 4-5 times a year as a trader and for many shows as a paying visitor so have seen show from all side so I do think I know what I am talking about.

 

I have tried to make Railex a friendly show and as interactive as I can possibly make it changing the demos from this how the demonstrator builds something in front of you, to visitors having a go themselves and taking away something they had done, I don’t think you can be more interactive than that, I would like to see an end to the demonstrator with his head down with an optivisor on.
Well done for getting over 900 people through the door at your previous show that is a very good number for a one day show The general economics of model railway exhibition are even if you have new ideas on things are the same, income is limited from door and advance tickets, trade income, and to a lesser degree program sales and adverts in your programme, the first you will have no control over the second you should know and the programme and adverts sales are nice to haves.
Outgoings the list is very long from hall hire that can range from a few hundred to quite a few thousand pounds, layout expenses to include fuel van, food and accommodation if required, Insurance that can be again from a few hundred to a few thousand but is vital plus in your case wages for your staff, I am not sure how many you have or what you pay them but say you are paying the minimum wage for five people that around £250 as the very least. Personally I can’t see the economics of running a show without volunteer input to be viable. Other than Railex which is a big two day show I am also involved with our clubs smaller one day exhibition which I guess is around the same size as your Sevenoaks show, and that gobbles up most of the club members on various duties throughout the day probably so my estimate of five people to man your show is a bit on the lean side. I wish you well but I can’t see it being viable in the long term on the basis you are running it. I just wonder what shows you have visited as I am sure the logistic and cost structures are the same at all of them.
David
 

[russianlayout]

David

 

This looks like a clear case of trying to undermine a new show from someone not happy about doing things different to you.  Why say that as we are a commercial theatre, that we should be paying exhibitors a wage to attend? Do the other commercial model railway shows pay exhibitors to attend?  If we go down that route why not get your club to pay exhibitors as all the money raised unless going to a charity is going to a private members club (which most model railway clubs are) to allow people in that club to enjoy model railways as a pastime.  Is there a difference from say model railway clubs then say golf clubs, both are often run and owned by the members and  money raised is there to benefit its members only for their leisure pastimes.   Club members who volunteer at model railway shows run by their club are not actually volunteers, they are there to help get more income into the club which they will personally see the benefits for.   A volunteer is someone who gives up their time or services for free for the  good of others.   Real volunteers would be real members of the public who have nothing to gain in the model railway club making money.   If you can prove everyone who volunteers at your show doesn't have a vested interest in that show making a profit to benefit their own personal pastime as club members, then I would take on board that all commercial shows including all the big ones and ours should be paying exhibitors.  

 

Why also do you think we are only marketing to non model makers, most who came last year were modellers and we market to them and the general public also. Again it seems you are trying to put traders off attending our show.  If you have a big waiting list of traders, that is good as proves lots of traders love going to shows and means for shows like us, having to get those small traders to consider other shows as their first choice is booked solid.  

 

Why say that what we do isn't viable in the long term, again a nice dig to try and undermine the new boy. Why say only limited money can be made on ticket sales and assume we charge money for our programmes which we don't, again something different, why charge someone for a programme which should be part of the ticket price. A high proportion of income comes from catering and drink sales at such events as you know and as an experienced exhibition manager, that would be included in your overall income projections and also sponsorship hence why we don't  need to charge for things like programmes as it is one negative thing for the customer experience.  

 

Why say we pay our staff say the minimum wage for the day, when they are all salaried employees and work on a seven day shift pattern and this is just another working day for them.   Half the number of paid staff, managed correctly are more useful then a high percentage of unwaged club members often standing around or in two's doing a role which can be done more efficiently with some good planning. Some of the logistics roles should be done by the venue with their staff, which again means not having to have people paid or unpaid by the exhibition manager doing that role.  

 

This all is sounding like the big airlines scoffing at Easyjet when they first started up with one plane but did things different to how airlines should behave.  

 

I am finding this all quiet funny and am flattered that a major player in model railway exhibitions is taking such interest in a 'little no nothing upstart' like me who just has two one day shows at present, and who won't play by the same rules as how things should be done.   All I can say is that if our way of doing things isn't viable in your way of doing things, maybe you should be looking more at your methods as a possible long term problem area.   

 

Good news for both of the shows is that your problems with how I run a show and my answers to your concerns means that we stay top of the forum in this section.  Well done you, your learning about effective marketing on social media, or have you fallen into a marketing trap.

 

I await your answer on how many volunteers at your show are general members of the public and not will gain from the show as club members.  Hopefully I have also answered all your concerns on how I try and run a show.   Agree insurance is vital, but a few hundred pounds to a few thousand, no way, a show the size of ours we were quoted £162 last year and £92 from our own insurance company as an add on and that is for public and employers liability covering such an event. 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

The general feeling about club shows is they put income back in to the hobby and help fund the following years show I very much doubt many club shows have ever made a fortune and many make a loss, without clubs there would very few exhibitions too in fact other than three commercial exhibition by Warners the only other show that is not run by a club I think is York.

 

Commercial shows I know of are Ally Pally, Doncaster and Peterborough who are unwritten by Warners, Although the Ally Pally show the layouts are booked by the Model Railway Club in London who also provides stewards but take a cut of the profit.

On the term volunteer I see it as people who don’t get paid and do the duties because they want to, in fact we do have people who are not members of our club help out at both our shows. I think most people who are involved with shows do so for the love of the hobby, the whole hobby is interlinked if there were no clubs there would be fewer layouts as exhibitions tend to fund the club to invest in new layouts or invest in the exhibition the following year.

 

Again I was not trying to undermine your show just making comment on why and what makes a trader want to attend a show.

Instead of getting the trade to contact you via your web site and here, you have you thought about the contacting a trader directly and inviting them, I pressure you know or have seen the traders at other shows you would like to have at your show who would be on your wish list?

 

Programmes are something some clubs include in the admission price while others charge, in fact our club does both, we have a small A5 folded sheet for our smaller show included in the cost of admittance while Railex a 36 page booklet we charge £1 for which is cost price for production, on average around 40% of people buy the programme.

 

We are not allowed at Railex to provide food and drinks as it has to be provided by the stadium catering company so we make no income on that at all in fact it costs us money not just for the meals we provide for exhibitors but the tea urn with last year cost £600 to provide “free drinks” to our stewards traders and invited layouts.

 

What sort of logistic support to you expect from the venue? We expect them to prepare the hall for our use they also sell tickets for us but take a percentage of ticket sales, they do provide first aid cover but I expect most venues will just unlock the venue and let you get on with it locking up at the end of the day.

 

Your insurance does sound a bit low, Insurance for Railex next year is just over £1000 we use Magnet which has a dedicated model railway policy, it covers travel of a layout from the exhibitor’s home to the show and return as well as cover and five million of public liability, may be worth confirming exactly what your insurance covers.

 

To be fair I am not exactly sure what you are doing differently to any other show it all toy trains anyway.

I have no interest in undermining your show or any other show, In fact I hoped my comments would be taken as good advice rather criticism of your show, I am sure you will do things your way and hope you are successful.

 

I don't know your name so maybe it would be nice to sign off with something and give a bit of personality to your post.

 

David

[dasatcopthorne]

Maybe then if that was Dave's  question, he  should have asked if we cover out of pocket expenses, which we do and always have done and that includes petrol, meals, brekkie and overnight accommodation if needed.  

 

 

I asked the question I wanted to ask. Expenses did not come into it.

 

Here's how I see it.

 

A Model Railway Club is a group of members who normally pay membership so can be considered volunteers. So are those that exhibit their layouts both Club and private ones. They 'support' other Clubs by exhibiting their layouts at their shows on the full understanding that any profits are most likely to go back into the organising Club. Thus perpetuating the hobby and the Club's existence.

 

Traders will attend as that is their business and the way, normally, that they make their living.

 

What concerns me is that by exhibiting at a show such as yourselves or similar, the profits made go out of the hobby and do nothing tangible to perpetuate the hobby.

 

Your Theatre Group is an employer and so a commercial organisation. Any profits made will go to your business, so do you not think that if you want to run a profitable event, no matter what it might be, you should employ people to staff it? You are asking exhibitors to give up their time to make a profit for your business. Yes, the expenses paid may and should cover out of pocket costs but what about their free time given?

 

That's the difference between your shows and shows run by Clubs and their members.

 

By the way, I am in a Club but not near either of your shows. I have also not had any connection with a show for around five years, so it's not a matter of you treading on my feet, so to speak.

 

Do you support a model railway club by being a member or helping them organise a show?

 

Dave

[PenrithBeacon]

I go to a fair number of MRSs during the season but I will not be going to this one. I truly dislike the tone of the posts made by the OP!

 

Regards

[russianlayout]

David

We also use Magnet for our insurance, our own company quoted us less but decided to go with the experts on it.  It also covered from home to exhibition hall, I think maybe the price diff is number of layouts but we both have the same policy.  Only reason we can if needed to get it cheaper is we already have insurance which covers outside and touring shows which this would come under, so although only £90 , it isn't a £90 quote someone can just get off the street.  It would be £90 on top of the premium we pay each year.  Again in our welcome packs we give our insurance ref to exhibitors and in  return expect traders to have public liability insurance as they are not covered by the exhibition insurance for any liability they cause to a venue or a person.

 

In answer to do support a model railway club, raised by second Dave, I was a member for two years of Erith Model Railway club a few years ago until moved out of area and yes we are putting something tangible back into the hobby.  I have been in talks with clubs and aspergers groups to get something set up as a separate group and speaking with Lewisham council for funding for a small premises to operate from.  This has nothing to do with the theatre business, it is something bought home to me last year when a number of young adults and their parents enlightened   me on building layouts and running models trains is something such young adults can connect with and enjoy. 

 

Also I visited two exhibitions last year held in theatres, so again those theatres are not hiring out their spaces for the good of the modelling world, they are hiring the space for profit to the theatre. 

 

 

 

Back to David, Have you publicly voiced your concerns to Warners or York that all exhibitors must be paid?   One  of the organisers, is a commercial publisher, a magazine, they also are there to make a profit, and part of that goes into putting on shows, which again makes a profit.

 

With regard to traders, I will say it again, yes of course we approach traders at shows, but at same time I cannot be at every show, so there is nothing wrong in getting traders to approach us also.  We do approach traders direct by phone and email, so please don't assume we dont do the basics.    

 

I think maybe your way of offering advice does come across of you should do this and this is how it should be done, and you must do this as that's the rules and as I said, I had the same last year and if I took all the advice given, we would not have ran New Cross.  Also I am and have always been very supportive on other exhibition managers who approach me and ask how come I can get this for this price and helping with social media for them,  If you approached me in a different way, I may have gained some knowledge from you and you may have seen a new cost effective way of making changes to help your income.  But instead I have had to spend time justifying myself and having to confirm we do the same things as other exhibitions like have insurance and provide free meals, teas and accommodation.

 

Now, Olive branch......  this year I am arranging three model railway shows, two beer festivals, a outdoor music concert and a dog show along with a summer tour of outdoor Shakespeare and a national theatre tour, punters to each will range from a few hundred to a few thousand plus I run a theatre in London which has to be programmed and marketed for each show. So take this or leave it, but there are savings you can make and below is where you can make them.

 

With regard to the catering and ticket sales at your event, that is a difficult one and as events is my day to day job, know that such venues always charge top dollar and then want all the lucrative catering and ticket comm as well. I also know that  conference centres and venues are losing clients as less big companies are using them, so honestly don't accept what they say on paper as what you have or have not to pay.  

 

One of my beer festivals is in a slightly smaller but still a conference centre and they tried that rule with me, so I walked as how can you have a beer festival if we cant provide the beer or the exhibitors own beer coming in.  Same with the dog show, both renegotiated when they saw the hire fee walk away.   Same with ticket sales, there are other ways of selling tickets apart from internal sources,  I hope also as they are selling the tickets, they also man the doors on the day to collect the tickets as that is part of what you are paying for, if not ask why not.  even if you collecting the cash on the day from people through the door, they should have at least two staff on the door to deal with pre ticket sales and not leave it to your volunteers to deal with.    They are prob already doing that for you, if not then seriously they should be as part of the package and it is not a add on.

 

Harry

[51E]

Harry, 
Have you been to Railex? 
If so then you'd know its probably one of the best, if not the best model railway show in the country! 
To throw David's advice and experience in his face is laughable!!

 

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Hi Harry

I think it has been raised on here on a different threads about commercial shows, I am sure if a layout is invited they make up their mind how they want to claim their expenses or payment, but as I said before Ally Pally do give something back to the Model Railway Club in London, I am sure York although not run by a model railway show ploughs back any profit in to the following show and does not produce a surplus that goes in to the pockets of the organizers.

 

I understand you are unable to go to every show but two shows a year is a bit light (for the record I attend around 10 shows a years and that has been cut down to what I used to go to.) You need to have your finger on the pulse of what is out there, I really think you don’t have any idea of the names of the regular traders that attend shows, the same for layouts If you want to be successful you need to be selective, I turn down quite a few layouts and traders that are really not the standard I want, as I asked before can you list the traders and layouts in a perfect world you would like to have at your show?

 

Being an exhibition manager you should be networking with other exhibition managers, traders and layouts, you soon find helpful hints and layouts and traders that can give you grief and are best avoided!

You seem to want everyone to come to you rather than you approach others, I am sure there are many people on here who can advise you but you seem very reactionary to any advice given to you. I have been involved in model railway shows 30 years plus so I think I know how the basics work even if you are planning to do things differently.

 

Even with eight months to your show have you calculated how many people visitors to break even? As this is a fundamental of having a successful exhibition. Even a simple spreadsheet with all your costs in it helps, you should know what most of your fixed outgoings will be even if you don’t have all the layouts confirmed, and you can have the 25 layouts with an average dummy cost if they are not booked yet, so far all I can see on your website is five layouts that are really not my cup of tea, and no traders listed.

 

I am sure you can give good advice although I do have a team behind me who look in to alternative ways we can do things and hopefully save money be it printing or media, many shows don’t even have a web presence!

 

As for the stadium we use I think it is used for events most weeks, and is the only suitable venue in the area plus it has a 50 room accommodation lodge on site which we block book, we think we get a good deal but we always negotiate the best we can get.

 

I am really unsure you can run a show on a commercial basis with 20-25 layouts using only paid staff and make it work. It may have worked at New Cross but gut feeling is that a club show using volunteers would still struggle with a school venue and that many layouts, I would love you to prove me wrong but I think you may well be in for a serious reality check next July.

 

David

[dasatcopthorne]

In answer to do support a model railway club, raised by second Dave, I was a member for two years of Erith Model Railway club a few years ago until moved out of area and yes we are putting something tangible back into the hobby.  I have been in talks with clubs and aspergers groups to get something set up as a separate group and speaking with Lewisham council for funding for a small premises to operate from.  This has nothing to do with the theatre business, it is something bought home to me last year when a number of young adults and their parents enlightened   me on building layouts and running models trains is something such young adults can connect with and enjoy. 

Harry

 

Harry.

 

I have extracted the small bit from you reply that seems to appertain to myself.

 

All good intentions I agree but setting up some kind of workshop for 'clubs and aspergers groups' and asking Lewisham Council for funding hardly constitutes putting money back into Model Railway Clubs nor is it likely to further the hobby.

 

Looking at the other shows you run, I think we just have to accept that you are a Professional Show Organiser looking who has turned his attention to Model Railway Shows as an additional way of making money.

 

Making money is good. It makes the world go round and in most cases gives people employment.

 

However, you will already know that your choice relies heavily on exhibitors (not Traders) giving up their free time to help you with this.

 

I still say, if this is the way you want to make an income, then pay people to work for you. I'm sure if you did pay your employees (exhibitors/layout owners) the basic wage, you would soon find that Model Railway Exhibitions would make a massive loss.

 

Suffice it to say, I will not be attending any of your events, but would not wish to stop others doing so.

 

What you do with regards to your other events is of no consequence here, neither is the fact that you may hold some secrets on reducing costs or selling more tickets.

 

 

Dave

(Not David Bigcheeseplant)

Although he's OK :-)))

[russianlayout]

I have never said I have been to just two exhibitions, last year , I said two are in theatres, not my own btw I attended 14 and on most Sundays, my day off this year I will be attending shows and yes I do network with layouts and traders. Hence how I got 90% of my layouts last year.

 

I am just bemused by both the Davids pressure on why I need to justify myself, something which I shouldn't need to do as I am not setting out to take anything away from other shows, to try an muscle in on an area and run a show in competition or even to do shows at peak times. I even choose times so they do not interfere with other local club shows and also when there is actually nothing else on in the SE area. I got lots of great advice from Southwark MRC, some great spead sheets from Erith MRC and the ever Helpful Colin Snowdon from OO gauge society and constantly featured layout builder in the magazines on things like the importance of exhibitor parking, while others advised on not charging for wheelchair users and the mix of small and large layouts which make up a good show. Most of the layouts who I invited from New Cross said yes apart from two, one as no longer exhibits and the second as they can't get the transport as another layout from same club is taking all the room in the car. I didn't invite all of the previous ones as want fresh layouts and held some of new cross layouts back for another show in the pipeline.

 

I haven't trown David advice away, my issue was not the advice but the manner it was put which is what your doing is going to fail and the negativity shown. Even in the last email it talks about spreadsheets and break even points and yes of course I have done that, and formulated a cost per metre per exibit and done the usual GRS searches on the income and household structure around the venue and done a mean on food prices at all the shows I attend and keep prices 10% below the average catering prices again putting a profit margin and same time knowing I wont get complaints about cost of food from people who attend, and saying things like I am in for a massive reality check next July again is being negative and any advice I can give to other exhibitors in money saving is a not a secret, in fact did I not tell people about the flyer costs and how they can save in this area in this very tread. Railex looks like an amazing show, but it generates its income using a different formula to us. That's why it is wrong to say we are in for a reality check next July as both that big impressive show and our shows don't follow the same income streams.

 

With a £600 food and tea and coffee bill for your volunteers, exhibitors and traders that is a lot of people to feed, estimated about 375 people which is way bigger then to 48 we had to give breakfast, lunch and teas to all day,so again we don't have the same overheads, you take income from ticket sales, programme advertising entry and trade space rental, where we use ticket sales, catering, sponsorship as main income with trade space rental less important to us as a income generator, hence why we don't charge much for it, as we class trade as an attraction as important as the exhibits.

 

 

My interest in running shows isn't just commercial as have a long interest in scenic model building and am building a second fully running train graveyard exhibition layout at present and on other treads on here getting advice when I get stuck.

 

Last year I had 16 exhibitors with 21 layouts and 9 traders, and all knew it was being run by a theatre and so I can't see why suddenly this year no exhibitor will want to attend as it is not a club run exhibition.

 

 

I also like to respond to trying to set up a charity to help bring together railway modelling to a section of the community isn't likely to forward the hobby. I am very confused as one moment I am being told that getting families and non railway modellers to an event means it will fail as traders need modellers, and now what we do well in getting the wider community to a show, isn't classed as forwarding the hobby. You may not know this but one of the big things about the last show and our exhibitors commented on it was that it was great so much new blood came along and wanted to see the show and also the high number of people from other ethnic backgrounds.

 

Maybe I am misjudging something but most exhibitors want to be at show as they are proud of their layout and want it seen and I know the three shows I have been asked to bring my Russian diorama to, I would have jumped at the chance if I wasn't working on those dates. What I am finding is they are seeking a well run and attended show, railex defo falls into that category and hopefully so do mine. I have never had an exhibitor say no not coming as your not paying me at least NMW, I have exhibitors who have two rates, one for charities and one for none, so maybe the storm your both created in real times doesn't actually exist. In fact because of this tread, enquiries from traders and layouts has increased, and if me running a commercial show has forced you to publically state you are not attending as a visitor, then I respect that. I just hope most people choose to attend shows based on the exhibits and attractions and ease of getting to the show and customer experience which is the areas I am going for and bringing the hobby to a wider audience.

 

Harry

Ps love to go to Railex but dog show that weekend, unless get wife to take over. Hope you don,t ban me from railex for engaging in this banter

[russianlayout]

Sorry Penrith why it a scam?

 

Explain what part of my show or the fact that it is run as a commercial event and have run such an event before a scam? Please tell me where I am forcing people to part with money and not giving anything in return is apparent.

[PenrithBeacon]

Sorry Penrith why it a scam?

Explain what part of my show or the fact that it is run as a commercial event and have run such an event before a scam? Please tell me where I am forcing people to part with money and not giving anything in return is apparent.

Because you were not open and honest in the OP about the commercial nature of this exhibition. Because it is not at all clear whether you will be paying exhibitor's for their time and effort and you are not being open and honest about who will be receiving the profits from this exhibition.

[russianlayout]

all I can see on your website is five layouts that are really not my cup of tea,

Thanks , I will tell those exhibitors not to bother trying to do Railex next year then lol

 

You defo sure as the Japenese one was the most photographed and talked about and war and peace and the seaside one had lots of praise on the sheer modelling skills of their owners.

[russianlayout]

Because you were not open and honest in the OP about the commercial nature of this exhibition. Because it is not at all clear whether you will be paying exhibitor's for their time and effort and you are not being open and honest about who will be receiving the profits from this exhibition.

Our website clearly states we are a theatre, I have been actually very honest and mentioned numerous times we are commercial. In fact I have answered every question put to me and not ducked from any on this tread.. I honestly didn't know I had to mention if we were paying exhibitors wages as never been ask that before, but at same time never mentioned that all the people doing the cash desk, car park, stewards, catering people, marketing, and setting up are all being paid, which they are. Nor did I state that we cover expenses again not something everyone puts up in a first email promoting their shows. So please can you answer my question as you called my show a scam, where am I trying to get money from people on here under false pretences and not give anything back in return. Just looking at a advert in RW for A commercial show, can't find on that either anywhere where it says this show is commercial, says who the organisers are and so does it clearly on our website and that is on the first post.

[The Stationmaster]

I have read this thread - at last - with a mixture of amazement and something else which I won't even spell out

 

Let's try to get something straight - our hobby is a broad church, in fact in my view the broader the better.  Exhibitions are equally broad ranging from the specialist and very modeller oriented events such as the excellent Railex. from such things as the Warners 'spectaculars' aimed at another part of the hobby and its followers, via various other larger club based/organised exhibitions each with its own ideas of how to do the job, down to the smaller club shows and those organised by schools or church groups or whatever. 

 

They appeal to all sorts of different levels of interest in our hobby and indeed to different geographical distributions of punters visitors but I suspect virtually all of them are aimed at making some sort of profit, I truly doubt that anyone runs a show purposely to make a loss (but you never know?).  But the one thing they all have in common is that they either service and meet the needs of those already in the hobby - at its various levels and areas of interest and/or they introduce new people to the hobby.  In view of the hobby's reportedly changing demographic any show which introduces new blood and might attract newcomers is 'putting something back into the hobby' - it might not be money going into a club's coffers but it is new blood, and that is even more important than money in my view.

 

So let's welcome those who are trying something a bit different if it brings in new blood or runs its show in a different way because I reckon the hobby heeds them far more than they need the hobby (as long as there are no serious calendar clashes of course - but then we don't need newcomers to create those, do we?).

[edcayton]

Flippin' eck!

 

Ed