SEVENOAKS MODEL RAIL SHOW

[AndrewC]

Good old Daily Mail comment syndrome. Half read something, jump to conclusions prematurely, grab the wrong end of the stick, then attempt to beat the OP to death with it.

 

On one hand the detractors are saying it won't introduce people to the hobby. Then in the next breath they are saying that unless it attracts modellers the trade stands won't show up. Make up your minds. Do you want something different that isn't preaching to the converted and drawing new people into the hobby that normally wouldn't be targeted by a traditional exhibition, or do you want the same old unwashed anoraks milling about like zombies sifting through the box shifters wares.

 

Then again it could just be plain old jealousy that he's been able to tap into an almost untouched pool of potential customers by doing things in a professional 21st century fashion instead of 1970s style church jumble sale.

 

Before you start on me for being a shill. I have no financial interest in this at all. I'm simply a punter and operator that was very impressed by how good the New Cross exhibition was for a first time effort. So what if it makes a profit. At least its a local business that is integrated with the community, providing local jobs. Its not as if the money is going into some shareholder's investment fund.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

To be fair I can’t really get that much information on the layouts you have booked so far as you can’t enlarge the photos, but what I can say is they don’t seem to be stand out layouts and would not inspire me to visit a show yours or anybody’s else if that was the only information I could see.

 

I am not trying to be unkind and I am sure you have got good intention but you do come across as naïve both on the logistics on a model railway exhibition, layouts, traders and the prototype. What the heck is a graveyard layout!

 

I feel this is bit like Dragons Den where the guy with the business idea and thinks he has a great idea is pulled apart by the dragons yet the guy still thinks he is right even though everyone can see holes in his plan and does not take advice.

 

I know Railex is a different model to your show but it still works on the same principal you add up all your outgoings and take it away from your incomings to get a profit figure.

For example the average expenses paid to a layout for Railex next year £269.33 per layout but add in the accommodation, meals, insurance etc. then it averages around £681 per layouts, or £33.75 per every foot of layout, I know you are just doing one day and your layouts are smaller but the principle is exactly the same.

 

Here are the really fundamental basics of running a show

Book good layouts and publicise them, so far you have five mediocre layouts, you can’t seem to name a single layout that you would like at your show.

Have good traders and publicise them, so far no traders listed, again name the traders you wold like at your show.

Understand exactly who and what the show is aimed at adjust marketing to suit, is it a families show, modellers show, what exactly are your new ideas?

Create and plan a spreadsheet that contains all the information and figures you can put into it so you know you break even figure, you have already stated you have around 25 layouts and are charging £4.95-£6.00 for an adult, how much is the venue hire I would estimate around the £500-700 mark add on paid staff and an a very low average cost of £20 per layout I can’t see the maths working.

 

Going back to Dragons Den “I’m Out”

[The Stationmaster]

David,

 

Just one point - what is a 'good layout'?  I know, as a regular punter, what is a 'good layout' in Railex terms - after all it's one reason why I come every year - but what you have at your show might not necessarily be 'a good layout' for some other types of show.  For example I usually go to teh show the Abingdon club organises in Didcot every year - not only completely differeent from Railex but in many respects different from teh same club's Abingdon show - just as Railex is different from the Risborough show.

 

And that I think is the key thing here, we have someone who is doing it a different way.  And no doubt has a different take on what is a good layout for the sort of show he is organising (I can't comment on the impact at the show itself because his last effort was not in my neck of the woods and his next one won't be either) but if he can do it successfully then there's presumably something in it even if his potential figures don't stack up the way you look at them?

 

If the show makes money or washes its face then it will have brought in the punters and that is what counts, especially if they're new to our hobby.  If it's a financial flop - as your numbers suggest - then it  probably won't happen again and that will be that.

[russianlayout]

David

 

Please, please can you stop trying to belittle my show and  my 'logistics' and also my exhibitors in every post.

 

Logistics wise, thank you for telling me how you do it  and pointing out again things I already do but in your opinion should be doing ??  and because I don't do it the exact way you do it, it will fail.  I don't see you as one of the Dragons in Dragons Den, and me the businessman being pulled apart.  I prefer the dynamic more like your the old established British Airways, doing things as they have always been done, not going for the cheapest costings, wasting money where you don't need to and not accepting change.   You are aware Easyjet are now Europe's largest airline and they were poo'd poo'd by the established carriers with their one plane at first.  Their tactic was to belittle the new carrier as not very good, rubbish planes, and they will be out of business in a year.

 

Thank you also for your introduction to accounting for business, you really don't get it do you.  Your telling me what I must do and then back it up with crazy over the top costings which are laughable.  Great you pay those amounts, if that for you is a good deal and your happy for your clubs profits to be wasted, then please carry on.  

 

Your costings of £681 per layout, wow what how can  accommodation bring this up to this price which at the travel net rep rate would be £32.60 per double room per night and £26.20 a single room for that locality, of course as an experienced event organiser, you already know about net room rates and the worst place to get a deal on a hotel room is at a conference centre your already hiring.  

 

My costings per layout £52.30.   Most expensive costings  per layout and the logistics of getting it here, food, insurance etc was £92 and cheapest was £14.20.   I have a lower break even point as, I am working to a different formula to you, but you still won't let it drop that it's your way or the wrongway. 

 

Please also, one of the worst things you can do is belittle layouts at another show.  If you saw our New cross offerings, each had a full description on the site and so will these, the paper work is out to the layouts and I have another 11 to add and once we get all the descriptions up, again it will hopefully make people want to come as they did last year. 

 

Again, thank you for telling me I need to know who to market to, Yes I do know the market I am going for and yes we are marketing to both modellers (again thanks for keeping this post at the top of the forum) and non modellers alike, and then sub dividing non modellers to families and men and couples and retired.  So then marketing to those areas.   My last event in Sevenoaks was a month ago which sold 1323 tickets at £15 a ticket over two days doing a live production, so I know how to market to the area and surrounds.

 

What are my new idea's I thought I addressed that.  Make traders part of the attraction so dont charge them much or even free as modellers like trade especially as less model shops around now.   To take layouts not just on their wow factor but to take those wow factor layouts where the exhibitor is able to engage with the public and don't see them as a nuisance for a day of playing trains.  To make the catering as affordable as possible by taking away outside catering and having more control over pricing.  To provide entertainment not directly connected with layouts but also a nice visitor experience (New Cross had a beer festival and also the UK's only female Morris dance team).    To actively encourage new blood into the hobby, ie in Sevenoaks, the school is going to be doing projects on railways and we are running a painting competition and giving a talk and bringing some layouts in early to show the children (yes, I know it is a good commercial marketing ploy as well, so no need anyone to point that out)   and Tourist Kent has already decided it is a big enough attraction to give us a page on their website.

 

I said I wanted to come to Railex and see a well run professional show, now changed my mind as how can I go to a  event where the exhibition manager states that our exhibition layouts are not the standard he accepts, despite many of ours being featured in magazines.  So you don't like anything that the Model Club exhibits at Ally Pally in that case, as we had one of their gorgeous exhibition layouts at New Cross last year and as you said, nothing we show meets your layout 'want to see' criteria.  

 

 

btw a train graveyard is a scrap yard for trains

 

Harry

[David Bigcheeseplant]

What makes a good layout, well that’s a thread in itself, to my mind it is something well modelled following closely to prototype practices, it should run well and presented in an attractive way. Many quite nicely modelled are let down by being too low and not well lit.

Maybe I should have said well-known layouts, to the general public this means nothing but to the modeller having a layout that people rate on here or on other forums and magazines gets the visitors in, personally some well know or good layouts don’t do it for me and have been to Railex but it is important to have them at all shows, the reason they are well known and popular are listed above.

It seems obvious that Harry has no idea of these layouts may be. In fact the total lack of posts other than related to his own show speaks volumes, have we seen any of his modelling on here no. Have we seen any useful input to other threads no. I really can’t see someone who has little knowledge of both prototype and models to be running a model railway show, I am sure you are genuine nice guy but I think you are going the wrong way about it.

I don’t think my posts have been put in an aggressive way, as most will know I try and get a point over in pleasant way although maybe I have been a bit blunt sometimes when it seems I am banging my head against brick wall.

I have no issue at all on if someone wants to stage a new show even in my neck of the world, I just can’t see this show working on what I have seen and heard so far, I am not going to lose sleep over it and as I said before I would like to be proved wrong but with little experience or knowledge of how these things work I think Harry could well lose money.

[hobbyhorse]

Wow, lots of criticism about you efforts Harry.

It's very refreshing to understand that you want the trader to be part of the experience.

Traders generally are treated as cash cows which isn't good for the smaller cottage industry type traders, which are the back bone of the hobby.

I do understand this as I am a small trader, who only attends two shows a year because of the stand costs and other expenses.

 

Wish you well.

 

Simon

[edcayton]

David, can I respectfully suggest that you quit while you are ahead?

 

Ed

[queensquare]

Well I must say David is doing better than me in that I can't even get thumbnails of the layouts booked for the Sevenoaks show, let alone a list of the layouts.

I don't want to get dragged into the debate about how a show should or shouldn't be run suffice to say that as someone who exhibits at shows up and down the country, including all the big ones, Railex in Aylesbury is, for my money, comfortably the best show of the year. The only one that comes close in my opinion is York, and certainly the likes of Warley or Ally Pally aren't in the same league. The latter two, along with a number of the other big shows, make a big deal of numbers of layouts attending but many, quite honestly are fillers and aren't very good. Whilst they do book some superb layouts it doesn't necessarily follow that just because a layout has been to one of these shows it's any good. If a layout has been invited to Railex on its CV you know it's good.

 

Jerry

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I don’t know what was at your last show so can make no comment on what the layouts were like, all I can see is five pictures of layouts on your web page that I thought were not my cup of tea, and didn’t inspire me, others may think different.

 

Most if not all my comments relate to all shows not just yours, within my points I have congratulated you on the numbers at your last show and also wished you success for Sevenoaks although raised my doubts as you well know.

 

Harry guess we just need to agree to differ as you seem to know everything.

[multiprinter]

David, can I respectfully suggest that you quit while you are ahead?

 

Ed

 

Is he ahead?  He's gone a long way down in my estimation.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I do not know Harry personally but there have been no posts on here either other threads that Harry has posted on his exhibition, so we have no idea what he likes either prototypes or models.

I have asked a couple of times to name what layouts and trade Harry would like at his show but with no response, so I presumed he didn’t know. It would not be that hard to mention for example Eileen’s Emporium, DC Kits DE Video, Roxey Mouldings for example who frequent many shows, and I guess most exhibition visitors and modellers would know about too, it not an exam, but you intend to run a model railway show surely you need to know the basics of who is out there and what they sell, especially after stating that the traders are really important.

So I will ask again even if they only attended a two day show there was no issue with budget and logistic what layouts would you like at your show? What layouts have inspired you? How an earth can you do run a show if you have no idea what is out there! I may have got Harry wrong and he may be a mind of modelling and prototype information but as yet it does not come across.

[Brian D]

Is he ahead?  He's gone a long way down in my estimation.

Tend to agree.  The comments about the layouts attending "the other" exhibition must mortify the owners of said layouts and would warrant an apology to said owners IMHO.

[BoD]

I'm not sure why Harry should have to justify any of his choices or decisions to us. Or why he should be tested on his knowledge of traders and layouts.

 

The proof of the pudding etc. and it would appear that Harry has already run one successful exhibition. Ok, Harry's approach appears to go against some's perceived wisdom but so what.

 

Good luck Harry.

[C.A.T.Ford]

David B.C.P.

                   Thank you for your estimate of my layout based on a website Photograph on a third party website. To my knowledge you have never seen my layout and I find your assessment to be a gross insult based on the principal that it has been featured in magazines and attended more than 20 exhibitions. I demand you apologise to me for your judgemental attitude based on such small evidence.

 

Cat

[russianlayout]

David, I did answer your question on type of layouts and trades I want, in fact I answered it a number of times.  Trades as per original post, I seek at least one trader (who we now have) who sells glues, hambol paints, tools and brushes as these are often hard to find at show and paints cant be posted easily any more. I also stated I wanted to keep the cost to traders low, to get some of the smaller one person outfits on board who offer something unique and interesting.  With regard to layouts, as I said, i am looking for exhibitors who can engage with the public and have interesting exhibits, going to limit O gauge due to the space to just one, so mostly 00/HO, N and looks like we have a second Z now also.  What I like is scenics and love layouts that tell a story, have character and catch a peace of history, just like a painting would.  

 

I so wanted 'Aldwych', Colin Snowdons 'Manston Airport' and 'The Great Train Robbery' last year, and will try again this year, as all of them tell a story, and are best describe as a 3D picture. 

 

My Russian Diorama tells a story, yes it has a working loco and track, but it was built as a copy of a real post soviet village in winter with wooden datcha's, no fine white snow just sludge and mud and street level gas pipes. 

 

I also never said I knew everything about running shows, I am learning all the time and working out from good and bad advice the best way to try and make my shows interesting, have a good professional approach in the contact and interaction of traders and exhibitors and to make sure everyone has a nice visit.   New Cross last year, took us by surprise, we projected a footfall of 400 and lucky were close enough to our storage and theatre to cope with the extra supplies needed. As I said made some major mistakes in getting to many large scale layouts in and created some bottlenecks for the visitors, and  put the exhibitors tea urn upstairs in a private area away from the crowds, which meant a up stairs walk to get teas and again next time will reposition this.  Also had a complaint that the entry at £6 was too high compared to the other local shows, which I questioned which other local inner London shows were they referring to.  Also didn't like the idea that the exhibitor secure parking was 400 meters away and this needs to be looked at again for the this years New Cross show. I also learnt that bacon rolls sell 2/1 then hot dogs and ham and cheese is more popular than Tuna or egg sandwiches, and very few exhibitors opted for the salad option for lunch preferring the sandwiches route.

 

For Sevenoaks, tickets on sale for a week now and yes a slow start with only 8 family tickets sold and 13 individual tickets but we still have 7 months to go and New Cross was only marketed 5 months in advance and only one local mailshot sent so far.  With traders confirmed we are at 8% of break even and add secondary income streams would bring our break even down from the 183 tickets needed, but David as you know, secondary income is projected based on historical data or market trends so can't include it in the break even amount.  

 

We have a secondary gross income spend of £1.22 per adult and 48p per child based on a 60% take up, which I know is conservative but again means that more likely to do better then worse then that projection. 

 

You say I wont take advice, yes I do, what I wont take is being told that my way is bound to fail and being informed you are the self appointed guru on running a model railway show and compare yourself to a Dragons Den business expert.  Then follow it up with some really scary costings which are so out of sink with what you should be paying and telling me that you and your group of advisors have years of experience and so I should take note, is to me laughable.  

 

You justified spending £600 on teas and coffees for the exhibitors and traders with a urn, that means that over two days 7500 cups of tea or coffee were drunk by your traders and exhibitors?   The cost per head for a tea is 8p including a catering cup, so unless you have 350 exhibitors each drinking one tea every hour over the two days, that is a lot of tea ie 10 cups each a day, hope the conference centre has lots of loos.   

 

You and your team of advisors tell me that you negotiate the best rates on accommodation and then say you block book the conference accommodation, which again is a massive no no in event management as they won't give you the best rep rates as they know you need them as much as they need you.   You know the local rep rates and I confirmed the rates in case you didn't have them to hand. 

 

You obviously have your eye on the ball for getting top layouts and traders and others have said the same on this posting, and that is a massive strength from years of experience in model railways and I would love to be at that level, but have a few more years to go but working towards it. Your logistical skills in running such a complex two day show are again outstanding and looks like your a great man manager and a do'er.

 

However, you have spent every post pushing me for answers to questions which frankly I don't have to answer but chose to do so, so again as you started with a open public question on my way of running a commercial show which you think should include payment of wages to exhibitors which I answered, can I now at last return with a open direct question  and ask does the club and the members of that club you represent have any input or say in your costings to put on a show and accept the possible loss of profits to the club through your way of doing things, because your post on this tread despite all the spread sheets, floor plans and cost per meter and things which must be done is actually what someone with no experience in large scale events would be paying.  

 

sorry but you started it

 

Harry

[queensquare]

I don't want to get shot down in flames in the way David has but despite numerous lengthy replies I still have no idea what layouts or traders are booked for the show. I can't find a list either here or on the website. Am I missing something?

 

Jerry

[2mm Andy]

I don't want to get shot down in flames in the way David has but despite numerous lengthy replies I still have no idea what layouts or traders are booked for the show. I can't find a list either here or on the website. Am I missing something?

 

Jerry

 

There is a list of layouts booked so far (5) here;

 

http://www.modelrailwayexhibition.com/sevenoaks.html

 

No trader details yet, but I'm sure Harry will add these closer to the exhibition date.

 

Andy

[PhilJ W]

There used to be a group posing as a model railway club even calling themselves something like 'The Ponders End model railway group' IIRC. It turned out that they were just rip off merchants and I know of a couple of modellers who attended their shows and never received any expenses. However Harry has been up front all along in that his is a commercial enterprise and all the exhibitors and traders at the Southwark show were aware of that fact. Another fact that some people choose to ignore is that any exhibition is a commercial enterprise whether it is run by a private individual, a magazine publisher, a charity or a model railway club, the intention is to make a profit. In the club of which I am a member our shows have mostly made a modest profit, this has gone towards the running costs of the club but there is nothing to stop another club if they so decided to blow any profits from their own exhibition on a jolly boys outing.

[black and decker boy]

 

I said I wanted to come to Railex and see a well run professional show, now changed my mind as how can I go to a  event where the exhibition manager states that our exhibition layouts are not the standard he accepts, despite many of ours being featured in magazines.

 

Harry

Sadly being featured in magazines is no reflection of how good a layout is, the magazines do not scrutinise the layouts but merely the writing of the article itself as they need a huge turnover to be able to publish every month.

 

There are many layouts that look great in photos are a utter garbage in the flesh and just as many for which the opposite is true. Many of my favourite show layouts haven't been in magazines and equally many of my favourite layouts from magazines are House bound and font do shows.

 

I think the philosophy and hence costing and logistics between a Major finescale modelling show like Railex and a small regional hobby / public show are poles apart. Railex needs layouts from across the nation to maintain its reputation and draw for discerning modellers across a wide geographic area. It's cost base is therefore much higher.

 

A regional hobby / public show, for example Rochdale, to which I help, must cut its cloth and hunt the bargains, the friends and squeeze everything to achieve a margin. Rochdale last year had no overnight and very low travel expenses. Each has its own target market and its subtley different business model to follow but that's not to say that each cannot learn from the other and to some degree each feeds from the other. The hobby would be much poorer without the finescale premium shows but equally, we all need the regional shows to support our club or give us our creative break with a new layout debut or to push the show boundaries with multi-media modelling, beer festivals or transport extravaganza.

 

Variety is the spice of life after all.

[David Bigcheeseplant]

David B.C.P.

                   Thank you for your estimate of my layout based on a website Photograph on a third party website. To my knowledge you have never seen my layout and I find your assessment to be a gross insult based on the principal that it has been featured in magazines and attended more than 20 exhibitions. I demand you apologise to me for your judgemental attitude based on such small evidence.

 

Cat

Not my cup of tea and did not inspire me are hardly insults or grounds for an apology even though you may have attended 20 exhibitions and has been in magazines does not necessary make a layout good, it may well be, but I am entitled to comment on what I see and that comment still stands.

Maybe if you can point me in the direction of somewhere I can look at your layout in a better light please do in fact I have no idea what layout is yours anyway.

 

David

[David Bigcheeseplant]

We had the Great Train Robbery at Railex last year and this layout did not require accommodation as the operators travelled in each day even so the total expenses including insurance and meals was low for us at £87.44, If it had to travel to your show then they would require accommodation and higher fuel charge so do the high prices you say we pay for expenses are realistic.

You justified spending £600 on teas and coffees for the exhibitors and traders with a urn, that means that over two days 7500 cups of tea or coffee were drunk by your traders and exhibitors? The cost per head for a tea is 8p including a catering cup, so unless you have 350 exhibitors each drinking one tea every hour over the two days, that is a lot of tea ie 10 cups each a day, hope the conference centre has lots of loos.

We have around 300 people in the hall without the public these include traders, layouts and club members we start setting up at midday on the Friday so with three days and with only 2-3 cups a day you soon get to quite a few cups and around 50 pence per cup.

You and your team of advisors tell me that you negotiate the best rates on accommodation and then say you block book the conference accommodation, which again is a massive no no in event management as they won't give you the best rep rates as they know you need them as much as they need you. You know the local rep rates and I confirmed the rates in case you didn't have them to hand.

There is a Travel lodge and Premier Inn in Aylesbury both if we were to block book and get a discount would still be more expensive that the deal the stadium give us, also the Premier Inn is around three miles away, and the Travel Lodge has parking in a multistory car park which we would need to pay for and has a height restriction so people coming with a van would be unable to get in. The arrangement we have at the stadium is great for us as exhibitors can park in their own secure car park all weekend if they are staying on site and have breakfast in the stadium café which is one minute walk across the car park, those who have stayed with us have always said they like the arrangement.

Railex is run by a team no way could it be done by one person the spreadsheet and finances are run by our treasurer who is an ex bank manager and secretary who are not only really outstanding at doing it (as I do not want that job or to be fair would not be that good at doing it.) To be fair I send them over the completed booking forms which they feed into the spreadsheet and send the sped sheet back to me where I can pull of information I require to be fair it is a very complex spreadsheet with 21 pages that has very involved calculation so anything you add or alter with recalculate something somewhere else, I mostly just look at the front summery sheet and where the break-even point is. So in answer to your question the Railex team all have access to the details on the finances as well as other club members should they want to know, in fact our accounts are audited one a year.

The costs we pay are what typical for other events ask any exhibition manager and I am sure they will quote you similar prices that we pay, in fact the Manchester club commented how we managed to run our show as economical as we do as there costs are way higher.
In ten shows we have always been successful but this would not happen by the input made my all our club members.

[Guest]

What an embarrassment of a thread this has turned out to be. Any exhibition aspirations I may have had have now completely evaporated if this is the attitude of some people involved with exhibitions. I shall continue railway modelling in the privacy of my own home in the safe and sure knowledge that I won't run the risk of ever bumping into *some* of you. Pathetic. GROW UP.

 

Oh, and just a reminder that the "Disagree" button is the little cross within the black circle. Feel free to click away, it's been used often enough in this thread...

[PenrithBeacon]

I think the criticism of 'David Big Cheese Plant' is completely outrageous. David is one of the most, if not the most, respected figures in British railway modelling and he is simply attempting to offer advice and constructive criticism.

Regards

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have changed my pic to show I really am a Pu ssy cat!

[leopardml2341]

I think the criticism of 'David Big Cheese Plant' is completely outrageous. David is one of the most, if not the most, respected figures in British railway modelling and he is simply attempting to offer advice and constructive criticism.

Regards

The big problem is that the written word is purely 'text' with no body language, intonation and inflection.

 

So much so that although 'one' might have in their own mind the underlying meaning of a comment, it is by no means certain that the reader will interpret it in the same way. We are after all individuals.

 

My thoughts on the subject are that it is impossible to assess what is the real intent without the benefit of 'understanding' which is often inadequately conveyed by written text alone.