sub39h Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Hi guys, I recently purchased one of Hornby's Mk2E FOs with the intention of turning it into Mk2D FK. At first I was going to find a cheap FK for the interior, but it got me thinking about non air-con Mk2s and whether any of them were FOs so I could do an interior swap. I understand only the Mk2Cs had FOs. I wanted to know if any of the Mk2Cs made it into BR Sector liveries, and if so which coach running numbers made it into which liveries. If there is a long list, i'd ideally be after any in Regional Railways or NSE liveries. Executive livery would be good too, but I understand the non air-con Exec coach was a very very rare beast indeed. Thanks in advance Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 Have a feeling some BSOs may have made it into Inter-City, and some TSO(T) micro-buffets made it to NSE What was the Regional Railways "Club" train? I know the later Mk2 sets in NW England and N Wales were mostly ex-NSE Mk2as, but there was an earlier set which they replaced. Wasn't the Wessex Trains set used on summer Saturday Bristol-Weymouths Mk2cs? Coaches were a mix of maroon and all-over blue Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim H Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 First picture on this page, captioned as a 2b, but ooks more like a 2c to me: http://www.semgonline.com/coach/brmk2_1.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 The Mk2C FOs were converted to 64xx SOs during 82-84, except for 3166 which went to NIR. After renumbering the lasted until 1991, but by then 5 had gone to IR and seven to departmental work. The summer 1989 P5 book shows all six remaining SOs as blue/grey. Longworth has five listed as preserved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted February 2, 2015 Author Share Posted February 2, 2015 Thank you both! The fact they were converted explains why I couldn't find any photos. So as they were "SOs" and not "TSOs" does that mean they retained their FO style seating? Were there any exterior changes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 They certainly retained their FO seating, probably just having the antimacassars removed. I don't think they ever had their seats covers changed from orange. The only exterior change I know of was that they originally had vents inwards of the doors at one end (one above a toilet window and one in the equivalent position on the other side) like the air-con stock has. These appear to have been removed and the gaps plated over when BR decided they were not going to retrofit air-con into the Mk2c stock, probably some time in the mid to late 1970s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 That's brilliant Flood, thank you. Final question then, so where did these remaining 64xx series SOs work? Also does anyone happen to have a photo of a Southern Pride Mk2 next to a Bachmann one please? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 That's brilliant Flood, thank you. Final question then, so where did these remaining 64xx series SOs work? Also does anyone happen to have a photo of a Southern Pride Mk2 next to a Bachmann one please? What dates are we talking? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 First picture on this page, captioned as a 2b, but ooks more like a 2c to me: http://www.semgonline.com/coach/brmk2_1.html How can you tell? What dates are we talking? Between 1988 and 1992ish (though another member has mentioned above they were withdrawn by then). I'm not going for strict prototypical accuracy, but I want some basis in reality. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 The declassified FO was a fantastic beast. They did keep their orange cloth but the headrests were quite hard because they had pillows removed, not just anti-macassars. The pillows were adjustable up and down on two elasticated straps. The vehicles were common performers in the mid eighties on secondary WCML expresses, and very nice they were too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 There are some downgraded 2c firsts in this train: 47485_1009-Barrow-Nottm_Chinley_5-7-84 by robertcwp, on Flickr Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Barrow - Nottingham! Now there's a working! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 The 1988 Platform 5 combined has them based at Oxley and Provincial sector along with the 19xxx declassified Mk2a, 2b and 2c FK stock. According to the October 1987 Rail Enthusiast the SK stock was used on the Birmingham - Norwich trains booked 3 SK, BG, 2 SK with the SO stock being used as Summer Saturday strengtheners to Great Yarmouth. It does state that by the August/September mixed rakes of SK/SO stock became the norm so they probably ended their days on these services. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted February 4, 2015 Author Share Posted February 4, 2015 Thanks very much Flood! "Provincial sector"? Does that mean some made it in Regional Railways livery? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 No. Blue and grey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 Some of the Mk 2c BFKs were used (along with 2d BFKs) by what became InterCity Cross Country on the Glasgow/Edinburgh portion workings which split at Carstairs - and a few of these received Executive livery: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p46631637/e71d40d6 http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p46631637/eff58785 Blue/grey 2c BFK at Edinburgh Waverley on Carstairs portion: http://80srail.zenfolio.com/p46631637/e693c4e5 These continued to be used by Cross Country until around 1990-91, when stock cascades initiated by the completion of the ECML electrification allowed withdrawal of the remaining non-airconditioned Mk 2's (mainly Mk 2c) used by the InterCity sector. A number of Mk 2c TSOs (all as far as I know in blue/grey) were also used by InterCity until this time. Both the BFKs and TSOs were used in mixed formations with aircons - mainly Mk 2d and 2e - and usually a Mk 1 RB®. Most of the aircons were progressively repainted into Executive and later INTERCITY, so mixed livery formations including the Mk2c stock were common. The Mk2c 64xx open seconds were rare beasts indeed to me based in Edinburgh, but I recall seeing two of them in a 4-coach Sunday portion working from Manchester in around 1989 - no idea what the rest of the formation was all these years later! I expect they had been pinched from their usual Provincial sector duties because it was a weekend. My vague memory is that the open seconds had been retrimmed with standard blue check Mk 2 second class moquette, but it was a long time ago and I may well be wrong. At least one of these is preserved, awaiting restoration, at the Mid-Norfolk Railway - I wonder whether there are any pictures online of its interior? One of the Mk 2c FO interiors is pictured on 28 days later, when the vehicle was located in derelict condition at Sinderby, Leeming Bar. The interior is filthy but the trim doesn't look familiar as either BR first or second class - is this one of the vehicles which was sold to CIE or NIR? 6th picture down on this page: http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php/33232-Train-Graveyard-North-Yorkshire-28-09-08?highlight=train Cheers Tom. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 That's great, thanks so much everyone! Can anyone recommend a good book which details the Mk2? I've seen reference to a book by Michael Harris. Is it worth investing in? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted February 5, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2015 Very good book, details development of the Mk 2 idea, sections on each type with plan drawings of each vehicle, conversions, sector use, refurbishment, detailed listings. Lots of pics too and the text goes into a lot of the whys and wherefores over the years in the context of BR at the time Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sub39h Posted February 5, 2015 Author Share Posted February 5, 2015 Brilliant, defo on the reading list then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 One of the Mk 2c FO interiors is pictured on 28 days later, when the vehicle was located in derelict condition at Sinderby, Leeming Bar. The interior is filthy but the trim doesn't look familiar as either BR first or second class - is this one of the vehicles which was sold to CIE or NIR? 6th picture down on this page: http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/showthread.php/33232-Train-Graveyard-North-Yorkshire-28-09-08?highlight=train Cheers Tom. They look like InterCity "Highrise" pink and grey, which was used on the Mk2F and Mk3 first class refurbished stock, in which case I'm amazed that a Mk2c ever got upholstered in it. As the seats aren't Inter City 70 style (no wings to the headrest) I'm guessing it probably is Irish Rail (C.I.E. as was) moquette. Very good book, details development of the Mk 2 idea, sections on each type with plan drawings of each vehicle, conversions, sector use, refurbishment, detailed listings. Lots of pics too and the text goes into a lot of the whys and wherefores over the years in the context of BR at the time How my copy stays in one piece I will never know, I look through it at least once every week. I don't model after 1988 so all the info on the DBSO stock after this date came from "BR Mark 2 Coaches: The Design that launched Inter City" by Michael Harris and "BR Mark 1 and Mark 2 Coaching Stock" by Hugh Longworth. As Keefer states the Harris book is a history of the design. The Longworth book is a list of vehicle numbers separated into build types stating basic differences, with pages from the BR diagram book, reallocation dates, renumbering dates and withdrawal dates for each vehicle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
slilley Posted February 5, 2015 Share Posted February 5, 2015 I would say that the 2b on the smegonline website is a 2c given the hatch on the roof. The 2cs were built with the potential for equipping with air-con at a later date, hence the provision of the hatch a la 2d Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 I travelled from Milton Keynes to Edinburgh (via Carstairs) in a 2C in intercity livery. IIRC it had not long been painted, but the inside was old, dirty and threadbare. I couldn't tell you the date but I suspect 87-89 as a guess. The rest of the train, save for buffet and brakevan, were all air con MK2's (d iirc) and still in blue grey, as was the 86. As the rest were all air con units I assume this older carriage was an engineering replacement for a missing 2d/e/f. So they definately did make it to i/c livery. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flood Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 The only Mk2c stock that were painted into InterCity (executive) livery were BFK coaches: 17117, 17122, 17126, 17129, 17130, 17134, 17135 and 17138. These were painted between 1985 and early 1987 and stayed in this livery until withdrawal in the early 1990s. Mk2C BSO 9465 is listed as either InterCity or Swallow livery in the 1992 Platform 5 combined but was still blue and grey in 1989. As I have no detailed information after 1990 I cannot confirm whether this is a typo or whether the coach was repainted (for possible use in Charter rakes?). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derekstuart Posted February 9, 2015 Share Posted February 9, 2015 OK. You were obviously there on the platform at MK and saw this train come in clearly wearing its blue and grey livery and me standing there with my guide dog... This thing had a big red stripe down the side and opening windows and had the lower ceiling for the (never fitted) air conditioning. But I'm not going to argue about it. As far as I remember the rest of the train was all (or at least mostly) blue and grey air con stock- D iirc. But perhaps I imagined the whole trip and your book has the answer to life, the universe and everything. I really won't lose sleep either way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bomag Posted February 10, 2015 Share Posted February 10, 2015 OK. You were obviously there on the platform at MK and saw this train come in clearly wearing its blue and grey livery and me standing there with my guide dog... This thing had a big red stripe down the side and opening windows and had the lower ceiling for the (never fitted) air conditioning. But I'm not going to argue about it. As far as I remember the rest of the train was all (or at least mostly) blue and grey air con stock- D iirc. But perhaps I imagined the whole trip and your book has the answer to life, the universe and everything. I really won't lose sleep either way. Derek You don't mention which version you saw. As far as ICE, Flood is probably correct; in terms of ICS the Summer 1989 P5 book has 5595 listed as 'I' which may, or may not be a typo. Given it had gone by 1991 there is going to be limited photos. While not disputing your statement, you don't mention what type of coach it was. Also given that in the period you mention Mk2ds were fairly rare on the south end of the WCML it does sound like a odd working, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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