Horses catching trains? How were they loaded?

[Black Sheep]

Bit of a discussion over how horses were loaded / unloaded and 'stored' on the railway in the mid-late 60's

 

Were they loaded into horse boxes through the cattle pens?

 

Did stations near Ascot or similar have special provisions?

 

Ta

[runs as required]

Don't know about exact period but there are a few pics of horse boxes being loaded on the web ( I googled railway horse boxes and clicked on images)

try this

and this 

they all seemed to be led in off a platform rather than cattle dock, though cattle trucks are visible  HTH

dh

[Edit: the link didn't 'take' on wife's ipad but I rectified on my laptop]

[JDW]

I have neigh idea, I'm afraid.  I'd guess it was probably a bit on the hoof...

 

Sorry...

[jcm@gwr]

It all depends on whether they were on the 'mane' platform,

or on the bay!

 

Couldn't help myself, sorry, Jeff

[Joseph_Pestell]

Most stations had a loading bay with a full height length of platform. Horses would be loaded into a horse box there and the wagon would be shunted onto its train in due course, with horses often conveyed as part of a passenger train. Reverse process for unloading so I suppose the horse could stay in the horse box for a few hours in the siding if owners not ready to unload.

 

Racecourse stations (and also army stations where cavalry were based) had extra long platforms dedicated for this purpose.

 

I don't think that one would want to leave horses in pens at the side of the track, particularly not  racehorses which are nervous creatures.

 

Whilst on livestock movements, there were wagons (and pens) for cattle and sheep. But I don't recall ever seeing mention of movements of pigs (other than flying ones of course)..

 

Edit: Just re-read OP and it makes specific reference to the 1960s. I suspect that there would have been very little by way of livestock movements, including horses, by then. Racehorses would certainly have been going by road.

[Fat Controller]

The dedicated platforms for horse traffic were often referred to as 'Horse Landings'. Horses, being easier to control than cows, would simply be led by their halters to and from the wagons. They would (almost?) always have a familiar human, in the form of a groom, travelling with them throughout, which would again make manoeuvring them easier. As far as I know, horseboxes conveying horses would be formed into passenger trains; certainly, they were passenger-rated stock. 

[The Stationmaster]

The dedicated platforms for horse traffic were often referred to as 'Horse Landings'. Horses, being easier to control than cows, would simply be led by their halters to and from the wagons. They would (almost?) always have a familiar human, in the form of a groom, travelling with them throughout, which would again make manoeuvring them easier. As far as I know, horseboxes conveying horses would be formed into passenger trains; certainly, they were passenger-rated stock. 

Horses conveyed in horseboxes were passenger rated traffic so they passed by passenger train (in Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock = NPCCS).  I am aware that a regular flow of donkeys were transported in cattle trucks, via cattle docks, in the 1960s but that is the only time I have heard of anything related to a horse being carried that way in peacetime.  At some smaller stations it was not at all unusual for horses to be loaded or unloaded at a passenger platform provided suitable access was available as not all stations had a suitable platform for the purpose.

[jamie92208]

Most horse boxes had a grooms compartment and they were formed at the front of the trian when loaded.   I've no details about the 1960's but there were horse loading docks at many stations.  Sometimes this was a second platform at the back of a bay but with a direct entrance off the station forecourt. (You wouldn't want to walk the nags through the booking office). Somtimes the loading point was the rear face of a platform witha  siding alongside it.  I've got one to model on Green Ayre and it ahd a cover over it to shelter the vans when being loaded.

 

Jamie

[Fat Controller]

Horses conveyed in horseboxes were passenger rated traffic so they passed by passenger train (in Non Passenger Carrying Coaching Stock = NPCCS).  I am aware that a regular flow of donkeys were transported in cattle trucks, via cattle docks, in the 1960s but that is the only time I have heard of anything related to a horse being carried that way in peacetime.  At some smaller stations it was not at all unusual for horses to be loaded or unloaded at a passenger platform provided suitable access was available as not all stations had a suitable platform for the purpose.

Am I correct in remembering that, when horses were conveyed in cattle trucks during WW1, the openings had to be covered with a tarpaulin to avoid the horses being 'spooked' by the sight of fast-moving scenery?

As a slight aside, I can remember my nan telling me about an Indian cavalry regiment arriving at Burry Port and Pembrey station during WW1.The horses were unloaded on the platforms, the Troopers mounting, and then riding off to their billets on what is now the Ashburnham Golf Course. Apparently, it was a spectacular sight.

[byron]

On my first day as a junior Booking and Parcels clerk (career went downhill from then!) at Stone station, a young lady asked about sending a horse by train - the station foreman suggested that she rode the beast to it's destination and catch a train back.

 

What a career full of memories the railway gave.

 

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

I have in front of me a photo of the up 'military sidings' to the west of Okehampton station, taken before or during WW1.  Against the longest dock road, there is a train with a couple of non-corridor bogie coaches, two horse boxes, at least nine cattle wagons and possibly a six wheeled van at the east end.  The dock it self is full of army personnel, horses, four gun carriages and stores wagons.  There are a few civilians as well. This area was adjacent to the overbridge that led south over the railway on to Dartmoor at the army training areas. By the direction the horses on the gun carriages are facing, I think they have unloaded and are about to head off onto the moor.

 

I recall reading somewhere, that officers' horse were conveyed in the horse boxes and the rank and file men had their horse conveyed in the cattle wagons, but I cannot remember the reference at the moment.

I believe that in many cases, certainly in the early days of the Great War, officers rode their own horses which were often also used for hunting - hence they got a good quality trip on the train.  Draught horses received somewhat more mundane treatment and in view of the number to be moved there would never have been enough horseboxes available hence - so I also understand it - the use of cattle wagons.  For example the movement of the BEF to Southampton, its embarkation port for France. involved the arrival by train of 481 officers' horses and 21,042 'riding and draught' horses between 10 and 17 August (inclusive) while by the end of that month a further 7,000 horses had also passed through the port after arriving by train).

 

Oddly the Schlieffen Plan is well remembered, and perhaps notorious, for its involvement of railway timetabling but in many respects the rail movement of the BEF to Southampton was even more efficient but rarely gets a mention.

[Poggy1165]

I think the discussion about military horses has been on here before. Certainly, as far as possible, officers' 'chargers' were allocated horseboxes, while horses for 'other ranks' went in cattle trucks - but (last time this was brought up) my belief that tarpaulins were used to keep the horses calm was questioned - apparently it wasn't always done, which I found (and find) surprising. Some unfortunate horses didn't even get cattle trucks - they were craned into opens with additional rails (like coke raves) added - the GWR certainly had some opens of this kind, as they appear in the famous big thick book of GW wagons. I can only say - poor horses!

[Horsetan]

On my first day as a junior Booking and Parcels clerk (career went downhill from then!) at Stone station, a young lady asked about sending a horse by train - the station foreman suggested that she rode the beast to it's destination and catch a train back.....

 

 

There is a photo from the Severn Valley Railway in preservation days, showing a horse and its owner/rider travelling in the baggage section of a Mk.1 brake.....

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On older station plans it is often possible to work out the likely route from road to platform by which a riding horse would be loaded or off-loaded. This comes in many forms dependent on the location, but an arrangement where the 'station hotel' has a stable yard with a convenient route to a 'wharf' or 'bank' on a bay platform road or parallel siding is not uncommon. Sometimes there's an end on platform arrangement on the same road or siding and this may be obligingly labelled 'carriage' wharf, bank, road, siding etc.. So you could have your pony and trap on the train too, in more ways than one.

 

... Just re-read OP and it makes specific reference to the 1960s. I suspect that there would have been very little by way of livestock movements, including horses, by then....

If there had been, then Triang would surely have been 'in there' with working horse and cattle loading and unloading wagons to go with the TPO, log dumper, giraffe decapitator and helicopter launcher.

[jonhall]

I put all the amimal transport photots from the NRM site in a single thread here

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66421-livestock-photos-from-the-nrm/

 

jon

[Graham Hughes]

 

Whilst on livestock movements, there were wagons (and pens) for cattle and sheep. But I don't recall ever seeing mention of movements of pigs (other than flying ones of course)..

In the fascinating 1951 British Transport Film Farmer Moving South the farmer has a pig with a litter of new piglets. The station master orders up a horse box to put them in as the weather was too cold for them to have travelled in cattle wagons, which, it seems to be inferred was the normal manner of transporting pigs. That said I am sure I have read references to the carriage rates for transporting a piglet in a sack in the guards van.

 

 

Edit: Just re-read OP and it makes specific reference to the 1960s. I suspect that there would have been very little by way of livestock movements, including horses, by then. Racehorses would certainly have been going by road.

Even earlier than that as this link  shows. While primarily about road transport it does have some interesting information on how racehorses were moved by rail. 

 

This paragraph from a web page about Dulllingham station gives an interesting account of racehorse travel by rail

Dullingham Station’s claim to fame was in 1895, when a two-year old racehorse, ‘Persimmon’ owned by Queen Victoria’s son, the Prince of Wales almost missed attending the Derby on 3rd June 1986.

 

Persimmon’s trainer, Richard Marsh, had arranged for the horse to travel to Epsom by train on Derby Day. It was intended that a stable lad would walk the horse through the country lanes to Dullingham Station, a country halt some five miles on the London side of Newmarket. (The walking of horses to races was not an uncommon occurrence in those days).

 

For some unknown reason Persimmon took an instant dislike to the box cars that came alongside the railway platform at the station and he absolutely refused to enter his box. Again and again the lad patiently walked him in a circle and attempted another approach but again Persimmon stopped short of the train, braced himself and threatened to rear up.

 

Richard Marsh, dressed for Derby Day in bowler hat and smart tweed suit, became increasingly agitated. Two racehorse special trains from Newmarket pulled into the station and were loaded and pulled out again – without Persimmon. The third and last horse-special of the day drew up. Still Persimmon refused. In desperation, Richard Marsh doffed his bowler and enlisted the help of a muscular porter. The two men tried to join hands behind Persimmon and push while the stable lad pulled from the front. The burly porter narrowly escaped being trampled and withdrew in fright. A large crowd of on-lookers had gathered and Richard Marsh shouted “This horse has got to go to Epsom today. Any man who helps get him into box will get a sovereign”. Ten men stepped forward and bodily lifted Persimmon through the doorway of his box, much to the horse’s surprise.

 

Persimmon arrived safely in Epsom and went on to win The Derby by a neck.

 

[runs as required]

I put all the amimal transport photots from the NRM site in a single thread here

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66421-livestock-photos-from-the-nrm/

jon

Thank you for that link.

A most interesting thread, not least for the horses being loaded at Harlow Town (873; 928); it makes me feel extremely old. I did some of that platform detailing - and the standard ticket office front - in the CCE's office. My first job!

Spot on for the OP's time frame.

dh

 

[edit: pcture references added]

[Clive Mortimore]

If loading of horses in railway vehicles is like trying to my wife's 'orse, Lola, into a horse box then the use of Anglo-Saxon words one would not use in front of the vicar seems to help.

[PatB]

If horse traffic was mostly gone by the 1960s it seems to have made BRs development of a horsebox as part of the Mk1 coaching stock series a bit of a waste of effort.

 

As for horses being spooked by fast moving scenery,  when I moved to Australia I was surprised to note that horse floats here tend to be designed so that the occupants can see ahead through a large windscreen or by sticking up above the walls of open top designs. They appear to enjoy the sensation of travelling quickly with no effort on their part .

[Graham Hughes]

If horse traffic was mostly gone by the 1960s it seems to have made BRs development of a horsebox as part of the Mk1 coaching stock series a bit of a waste of effort.

 

It was, pretty much. They introduced them in the late fifties and they were all gone by the end of 1971 as horse transport by rail had died off. 

[Trog]

I read somewhere that one of the things worked into the Schlieffen plan was how long it would take to get the British Army into position in France. The Germans worked this out from how long it would take them to make the arrangements, and then factored in the relative size of the two armies transport planning departments. Sadly for the Germans the British Army did not work the same way as the Germans, and instead of working it all out themselves they just sent a runner down to Waterloo to ask for 300,000 odd tickets to France please (Singles only), and left the railway to sort it out overnight. The German Army then got a nasty shock when the BEF turned up a week early, which put them off balance. So when they heard of a rumour circulating in London that large numbers of Russian troops (with snow on their boots) had been seen on trains to the channel ports. Instead of dismissing it as too far fetched, having already been caught by the unexpected once, they paused in their advance just in case. Which gave the allied armies time to organise a defence in front of them.

[corneliuslundie]

In "Railways of Wales" (National Museum of Wales, 1986) there is a photo of horses being loaded into cattle wagons from the platform after the local horse fair in 1905. I imagine that things were much the same as long as horse fairs continued as there were relatively few horse boxes compared with the number of cattle wagons. But they were not pedigree beasts owned by rich landowners.

 

Jonathan

[Lochinvar]

Do we know why loaded horse boxes were marshalled at the front?  (1950s era photos. confirm this as the norm.,so there was presumably a good operational reason for it.).

 

DR

[Clive Mortimore]

Do we know why loaded horse boxes were marshalled at the front?  (1950s era photos. confirm this as the norm.,so there was presumably a good operational reason for it.).

 

DR

Could it be a simple railway operation of easy attachment and detachment at the departure and destination stations?

[JDW]

Maybe because on a long train, there is the risk of couplings snatching and injuring the horse if the box were at the rear?  At the front, there are fewer couplings so less chance of a harsh jolt when setting off?  And as Clive says, it would be easier to attach/detach with the train engine that way too.