Jump to content


  • Content Count

  • Joined

Community Reputation

58 Neutral

Recent Profile Visitors

131 profile views
  1. A brief supplementary on stabling matters to add to the previous note, and also connecting back to the third post in this series that mentioned a 1958 WT. The analysis is a bit fiddly to work out, bound to be a few errors, so subsequent editing very likely. The 1960 WT 185 was a one-off for the extension of electric services to Amersham and Chesham. I've referred to its Rolling Stock Working pages, and made brief but not exhaustive checks in the main body of the timetable, MF services only. I have converted times to 24+ hours to reduce the risk of me making mistakes. Each working of a coach set and of a locomotive is given a number for the traffic day [03:00 to 27:00 (03:00 next day] and this number allows the workings to be followed through the timetable via its column headers or notes. Loco workings are similar to ‘diagrams’. The 'diagram' for the coaches uses the assigned train number for the day as the identifier. The next day’s workings use the same number pattern, but of course allocated with different real vehicles, and it is quite common for real vehicles to be assigned to different trains during a day, for example to ensure vehicles return to a particular location for maintenance or as a tactic to manage service recovery post-disruption. When stabling a train [set of coaches], the train number/coach working number at the finish is not the same as the number used for the departure next day. Example for Steam Stock 6-coach [SS6], WT 185, MF service: Train 114 Empty from Aylesbury (Town) arrives Wendover 20:47 and shunts to Yard. Departs next morning 06:45 as train 112 Empty to Aylesbury (Town). Loco working examples Overall, the rolling stock working [meaning the starts and finishes, stabling and out-stabling] is quite similar to the 1958 WT: At maximum, nine locos required for MF service out of an overall fleet of sixteen. Eight locos return to Neasden at night, and one loco [working 5] remains at Liverpool Street overnight and becomes working 9, taking over the first train that arrives in the morning. Two locos also remain during the day at Liverpool Street, loco working 3 [arrives at 09:40 with train 113 and departs with train 117 at 15:43] and 9 [arrives with train 117 at 09:55½ and departs with train 115 at 16:19]. Specific details from the timetable on Chesham loco moves Train 118 [loco working 5, plus loco working 6 at rear] depart Neasden (North) 06:00 empty to Chesham p2 arrive 06:59 Train 118 [loco working 6] depart Chesham 07:31 to Baker Street p1 08:27 Train 119 [loco working 5] depart Chesham 08:12 to Liverpool Street arrive 9:20½ Train 112 [Loco working 2] depart Liverpool Street 17:14½ arrive Chesham p2 18:27. Coaches [Steam Stock set] moved to siding. Train 113 [Loco working 6] depart Liverpool Street 17:41 arrive Chesham p2 18:57 Train 113 [Loco working 2 plus loco working 6 at rear], depart Chesham 19:21, in service to Harrow-on-the-Hill, empty to Neasden (North) 20:08. This means that coaches from incoming train 112 at 18:27 will form train 119 at 08:12 next day I guess that related questions will arise for priming and conclusion of layovers: Loco working 2 [alone] departs Neasden (North) 06:31, arrives Rickmansworth 07:00 Loco working 8 [alone] departs Neasden (North) 06:58, arrives Rickmansworth 07:30 Loco working 4 [alone] departs Rickmansworth 18:40, arrives Neasden (North) 19:12 Loco working 3 [alone] departs Rickmansworth 24:37, arrives Neasden (North) 25:03 [conveys staff] Loco working 7 departs Neasden (South) 06:09 at rear of train 116, arrives Baker Street 06:26½ Loco working 9 departs Baker Street 20:25, arrives Neasden (South) 20:25 One tiny diversion from stabling and out-stabling, but with a Chesham context - there is a morning working of interest, an LMR train: Class C 03:55 ex Marylebone Empty Coaches + Newspaper Van 04:53 Chesham arrive [infer Van remains at Chesham] Class B 05:38 Chesham depart in passenger service Calls at stations to Rickmansworth then Northwood and stations to Harrow-on-the-Hill. Arrive Marylebone 06:32
  2. In response to this morning's post I confirm the practice of loco at rear of train, and it's featured in several photographs in publications and internet places. It's an important technique to use when train paths are at a premium. The additional loco extends the train length a little and still carries a crew, but as a separate loco movement it would occupy more or the railway and add to the signalling and control workload, so overall a positive effect on capacity. The Met would be pretty busy generally, heading to and from Neasden, but also Chesham is a long single line, and the junction area at Chalfont remains capacity-critical today. It's a practice that was in use back in Metropolitan times in various ways to suit situations, and similar practices were sometimes - but not always - used for coaches and vehicles based at Neasden which were added to or removed from trains at suitable locations to suit demand. Sometimes these moves show up in WTs, sometimes not. When time permits, I'll look up the WT for the electrification North of Rickmansworth - might be some interest in the movements that were scheduled, though danger of heading off-topic for the originator of the question!
  3. I'd need to do more research in timetables and photographs of the time. Quick checking of the closest fit WT [1958] shows nine locos required for am peak weekday service out of an overall fleet of sixteen. Eight locos returned to Neasden at night, and one loco remained at Liverpool Street overnight to pick up the first returning train in the morning. At Neasden, the electric locos would not have been in the steam loco part of the depot [not electrified], and didn't have a separate shed. I have no hard evidence in mind but suggest that locos arriving at Neasden that didn't require any more than nightly test may well have been left on a yard stabling road or shed road at Neasden with their incoming train. However, highly likely that the loco would need to be uncoupled and positioned with its train for the next day, depending on direction of departure. Conventionally, the Depot Foreman would allocate trains in the yard for the next day's workings and there would be a fairly consistent plan for this. Ideally, Incoming trains [all but one of the evening/night finishers coming into Neasden North from Wembley] would be directed to the stabling place that suited their next [day] activities but if there was work to be done on the train, a different berth was arranged and the train redirected as it entered. If a locomotive needed examination or inspection, or more, after stabling its train the loco would be uncoupled and moved to the appropriate shed road for the work to be done. By the 1960s there would be a small number of locomotives in excess of service requirements and spare locos would probably be placed on a suitable road, either in the yard not far from the depot office, or maybe in the Exam or Cleaning Shed. Broadly the aim was for a convenient place for depot staff to retrieve and move as required. Some of the locos in the fleet would be on Lifting roads for planned major work/equipment change or, up to about 1959, at Acton for Heavy Overhaul
  4. Thanks for including in the fun the ACV vehicles, with their several London area and London Underground connections. For a future selection, how about the Adkins-Lewis Neverstop Railway vehicles? - several vehicles later repurposed as Ashover Light Railway coaches.
  5. A couple of postings this evening have reminded me I'm a few years overdue to note a 1957 film called 'The Smallest Show on Earth'. I don't think I'm duplicating any previous report on here. I found this film reference while researching detail for an Uxbridge Vine Street layout and an Uxbridge tram diorama. Other railway locations feature, including Kilburn and places around the Potteries. https://www.reelstreets.com/films/smallest-show-on-earth-the/
  6. Congratulations for tackling Metropolitan stock and its complexities, and well done for comprehensive coverage of the Bogie Stock family including steam-hauled vehicles, the two Motor Coach variants for M Stock and N Stock, and especially the First Class vehicle which hasn't featured in the kits and 3D work in modern times. It's a moderately tricky stock, and published material to date doesn't cover all the information needed for high-fidelity modelling, especially in the larger scales - I'm in the midst of research to address some of this. I'll look forward to future products and will assist with detail if I can.
  7. Thanks to all for responding with help and suggestions. To Wagonman, from the advice on operational use it now feels most likely that the 1/24th scale T47 model is another ‘autobiographical’ essay, given the builder’s connections to Clutton and that general area of the country. It could, of course, be simply an attractive prototype for his plentiful modelling skllls. To Miss P, many thanks for pointing out the GWR web pages, new detail for me. Combining this with the Nearholmer notes gives me more logic than speculation to suggest that the 4-wheel coaches run by the Metropolitan were of the GWR 4-wheel ‘City’ design. Clinging on to the livery theme in this thread, I guess that the coaches running on Met services 1919 to 1921ish would have had Crimson Lake livery. From here, just to close the note and refer back to the Nearholmer note I’ll comment on the Metropolitan side of the story – apologies to the GWR community. The Met. was in a difficult place at the end of the First War, heavy demand, inadequate stock to keep up with maintenance let alone enhance services. A large rolling stock procurement and reconstruction programme was initiated in 1919. Already in 1918 the Officers’ Committee had resolved to approach the Great Western and the Midland for temporary use of stock and I guess that the eventual outcome was the hiring of available and suitable GW 4-wheel stock, to bridge the time gap while new stock and capacity emerged from 1921. To make sense of the Met’s stock position going through the 1920s and into the 1930s, I’ve needed to go beyond the Snowdon book and its source material in the Ken Benest articles in Underground News in the 1960s, so Working Timetables have been very helpful. Despite electrification, there was not enough capacity in the electric stock fleet to meet peak demand for seated accommodation. From 1919 to 1921 there were 1-3 loco-hauled trains running at peak times only, Monday to Friday and Saturdays, workings including City to Willesden, Neasden, Wembley and Harrow, and occasionally reaching Uxbridge. Notes in timetables indicate one or two of these trains as Great Western stock, in 10-coach formations. I speculate that the other loco hauled trains were formed of Metropolitan Bogie Stock. The Metropolitan’s ‘Bogie Stock’ fleet [referred to as 'Ashbury' in the technical and enthusiast press] was partly converted to Multiple Unit formations in the 1900s, and remaining vehicles were formed in steam stock trains among the ‘Main Line Stock’ [Dreadnoughts] that arrived in 1910 and 1912, as well as providing a pool of vehicles for the many ‘additional coaches’ scheduled to join particular trains. This mix of use is supported by photographs. The remaining Bogie Stock vehicles were released from ‘Steam Stock’ work when the 1919-ordered Main Line Stock’ arrived, and from loco-hauled work by better availability of Saloon Stock. From 1921 the remaining Bogie Stock vehicles were converted to run in W Stock trains plus three spare vehicles.
  8. Thank you, I'd not considered that angle which seems really good to me. I had envisaged simply that the builder had access to books on GWR stock. The model has a build date of 1971. If the approach was consistent with the builder's other work in the 1960s and 1970s, he would use a mix of technical information [not necessarily drawings], photographs and memory to achieve a result of good appearance and fidelity, particularly livery. The livery connection was the reason for posting the images on this thread. The builder's general motivation seems to be to create individual replicas of vehicles he'd seen or were 'iconic' in railways he was interested in. My theories on the builder's motivation in this case had been either: (I) more likely - Birth and early years in Clutton, and remained attached to the area, so had seen GW trains; or (ii) less likely - builder lived in London from early 1920s, and had great interest in the Metropolitan Railway - and the Metropolitan used one or two trains of GW 4-wheel stock to strengthen its services, from 1919 to the early 1920s. Alas, I've not seen evidence of exactly the 4w vehicles used in this role.
  9. I'm grateful to learn the coach has a real prototype. I'm intrigued by 'doubt it ever ran into Paddington'.? I'm wondering where (and when) because I'm puzzled why the model was made. The builder's early years (born 1908ish) were in GW territory but he began work life in London. Almost all his 1/2" models were of another railway, with reasonable fidelity but not 'finescale-perfect'. He'd seen each of his prototypes at close quarters, although there were many years between 'seeing' and building the majority of the models. I have a couple of theories that might pivot on where he may have encountered such a vehicle.
  10. Just an aside, not on the question but on the general emerging theme and may be of interest. The model in the images is 1/24th and was made by someone likely to have seen the real thing. It looks good yet is quite basic and may not represent a real vehicle.
  11. In response to the suburban villa picture, my family lived in the Stanley Buildings just off Pancras Road, between StP and KX, from about 1920 to 1953, so very familiar with the local territory. I was told about this house but don't recall seeing it first hand. I was told it was built as a Show House by one of the major housing development/building firms. Dates are a bit hazy, and it might have dated from Empire Exhibition times up to the 1930s when housing development surged.
  12. I'm a bit behind with most things in life, and so too with this thread. It's good inspiration and it's a persistent reminder that I need to get ahead far enough with sorting out my life so I can carry on with some cut-and-shut work for myself, not on coaches but with model trams - someday. Real reason for this overdue note is first to say thanks for including the excellent picture of the Canning Town train in the posts on 9/10 October - that area has some family connections for me. The mention of Jazz trains in the posts after this, I know, is connected commonly to the colour of the class markings added to the coaches and to the coloured stopping boards carried, but I have a serious alternative reason to suggest. A large part of my career has been working with railway operators and very close to schedulers. Consider a railway that has a single terminus or main line which fans out to two or more branches. If the timetable has the trains running out to one terminus, then out to the next branch and back, and so on, then repeating the cycle through alternate routes, the creators of timetables have a traditional technical term for the service pattern - 'Jazzing'. In some circumstances, this can become a very efficient service as an alternative to self-contained services on each branch. Having looked up contemporary information on the original intensive services out of Liverpool Street, I think there's a good match between the terminology and the GER service pattern at the time. The scheduling jargon may have found its way out through operations and into the wider community of railway interest - or there could be other reasons, of course.
  13. "... three Metropolitan carriages, a full first, full third and a brake third ..." Composite 509 is beautifully restored as a First Class Coach ... Main thing is that it's good to have these around, still, and in good hands. Picture from VCT twitter. "... the weathering is quite distinctive on these carriages ..." Real Underground dirt below solebar can have a little dirty mud splash but for roof, body/windows and the running gear, the main component of dirt is a 'weathering powder' in the form of Tunnel Dust, very fine and dark, near black, all pervasive, and 'sticky', though fairly dry. A note on Underground vehicle roof colour - back in history it wasn't unusual for vehicles to come out from overhaul with grey or 'red oxide' roof colour [old hands tell me the latter tended to be a mix of the Paint Shop's remnants from the previous week, with a lot of Railway Red, of course]. After a few months any of the roof paint coatings would be dulled by weather and exposure to tunnel dust, all becoming a typical dark colour as time passed. .
  14. Recently viewed a film on construction of the Victoria Line in the 1960s - took me back. Right at the very end, at about 1:39:36, there's a view from the lighting tower over Northumberland Park depot and to the right of shot there's a fleeting glimpse of what I think is a parcels train - single diesel car hauling two vans:
  15. Delighted to see the King's Cross film, many thanks for making it visible for all. I'm sympathetic to the railway content of course, but the film [rather like modelling] is able to communicate the whole scene and the spirit of the area. My father had lived close by up to the early 50s, in the Buildings between KX and St Pancras that are just visible in the distance at about 2:36. A small remnant of those Buildings still stands among the modern developments along with the truncated German Gymnasium building just North of the Great Northern Hotel. I was brought up with visits and stories of the area and can just remember the array of buildings in front of the station before Victoria Line construction swept them away. It's nice to see it all recorded on film, especially the people, vehicles and presence of trolleybus overhead. There's one excellent, unusual, rare view at 1:22 of a small house close to the corner of Pancras Road, which I believe was built as a show house in the 1920s. I shall watch a few more times - definitely more detail to be discovered.
  • Create New...

Important Information

We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.