K14
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Blog Comments posted by K14
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11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:Derived from the action of a domestic cat, leaving small holes in one's clothes and skin?
Birds of prey:
https://www.etymonline.com/word/pounce
pounce (v.)
1680s, originally "to seize with the pounces," from Middle English pownse (n.) "hawk's claw" (see pounce (n.1)). The earlier verb sense was "perforate, make holes in" (late 14c.). Meaning "to jump or fall upon suddenly" is from 1812. Figurative sense of "lay hold of eagerly" is from 1840. Related: Pounced; pouncing. A doublet of punch (v.).
pounce (n.1)
"claw of a bird of prey," late 15c., pownse, probably from Old French ponchon "lance, javelin; spine, quill" (Modern French poinçon; see punch (v.)). So called for being the "claws that punch" holes in things. In falconry, the heel claw is a talon, and others are pounces. Hence, "a stab, thrust" (c. 1400). In Middle English also the name of a tool for punching holes or embossing metal (late 14c.), from pounce (v.) in the special sense of "ornament by perforation." Clothing ornamented with cut-out figures was pounced.
pounce (n.2)
"an act of jumping or falling upon," 1825, from pounce (v.)-
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7 hours ago, Miss Prism said:Great to have that selection of pics for comparison on the same page, Mikkel. Thanks.
My personal view is that 92 and 93 are probably the preservationists' best yet crimson lake, and that the colour for the Main Line & City stock as first preserved was wrong for crimson lake, but a rather excellent version of 1908 brown.
92 & 93 are in 'Llangollen Red' as supplied by Williamson's. Having seen an original sample of Lake, I reckon the Llan got it about right.
Where it fell down originally IMO was by applying only one topcoat over Williamson's recommended undercoat which is a rather nice red colour but shifts dramatically depending on the lighting conditions.
When I repainted 93, it got two coats of Llan Red over a neutral grey undercoat. The original sample had evidence that Swindon used a pink undercoat (probably white lead + lake).
Pete S.
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27 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:
I remember when Didcot wheeled out the first restoration of their Main Line & City stock. I took a couple of (old chemical film) pics, which are long since lost I think. I remember going up very close to the side of the coach and asking myself "What colour is this?" I couldn't answer my own question. All I saw was the deep dark opulent lake rather than the colour.
Maybe Pete Speller @K14can enlighten us.
Can't really help there, that was before my time - mid '80s?
That said I've a vague recollection that a 'job lot' of 5-gallon drums of a very deep purply-red/brown paint was either donated or otherwise obtained & was deemed to be near enough so got used.
@Western Star might know more.
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13 hours ago, Mikkel said:
Looking at the front page of Bill Stewart's book, I'm wondering if he was involved with the BR totem.
Doubtful - I'd have thought that was down to the College Of Heralds, who are literally The Law when it comes to such things. The 1949 totem was a commercial design though.
Besides... there were plenty of examples of a Lion rampant rouge up & down the country that have no railway connection at all.
This one from the Brewery Artists website of the pub sign at Upton Snodsbury looks a bit similaresque.
P.
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On 17/04/2022 at 07:54, Mikkel said:
K14 posted some details on pouncing here in this comment, though sadly now without the illustrations: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/1351-signs-posters-and-adverts/?do=findComment&comment=71867
Now sorted (hopefully).
On 15/04/2022 at 21:06, magmouse said:Yes - the sense I have is that signwriting - at least the kind on PO wagons - was based on simple geometries that could be set out with ruler and chalk, and perhaps a piece of string to do the curves (which would all therefore be arcs of a circle. Some things can't be done easily that way - an ampersand, for example - but those could be set out by eye and a few rules of thumb to get the proportions right.
Is there any archival material that covers this, evidencing the methods used?
Nick.
"Signwork - A Craftsman's Manual" by Bill Stewart was the accepted course book for the City & Guilds Signwriting course that I took back in the 90s, & covers... well, pretty much everything:—
There are similar guides in the Internet Archive site, here's one from 1910:— https://archive.org/details/expertsignpainte00kell/mode/2up
A selection:— https://archive.org/search.php?query=Sign painting
Pete S.
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On 21/03/2021 at 06:54, Mikkel said:
BTW I was interested to see this stenciling method for smaller lettering. I wonder if something similar was also used in some cases back then:
https://quornwagonandwagon.co.uk/2018/04/02/final-touches-and-signwriting/
AKA 'Pouncing', although strictly speaking a proper pounce is made from a piece of oiled card which is then perforated with a needle to give a dotted outline. The card is then patted with a muslin bag filled with French Chalk which goes through the holes.
When I was doing it, I just printed the design onto 80 gsm paper & chalked the back to transfer it rather as Mr Baker has done at Quorn.
As to historical examples... There are plenty of examples showing a guide lines - top only if you're using the plank edge as a bottom guide - but very few showing anything else. I did turf up these though:—
March 1938: This looks as though the G W and 12T have been pounced, & maybe the number too (that 8 is very nice & both the 5s are suspiciously similar):—
August 1948: Not sure about this one - the 'dotted box' is something I've not seen elsewhere & the general wonkiness suggests freehand:—
June 1958: Plenty of chalk lines here, & a suspicion of sketching out on the number - sort of a halfway house between pouncing/tracing & freehand:—
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Hand painted. If you pore over the photos in the OPC books you'll find less consistency than you'd think - especially on the 'Tons.Tare'
See Russell "Wagons & Loads" figs 123 & 124. P.14 Grampus No. 14351 showing both sides on the same date & plenty of variations between them.
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5 hours ago, wenlock said:I'm sure the children in the "rural idyll" of Sherton Abbas wouldn't dream of throwing things at my insulators, but just to be on the safe side I'll tone them down a bit:-)
Dave
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/224530-telegraph-pole-signs
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/224530-telegraph-pole-signs
Pete S.
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7800 was built with full-taper buffers & 7807 retained its originals until at least 1952:—
I suspect a trend...
Pete S.
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20 minutes ago, wenlock said:
Rather conveniently I’ve decided that there is indeed a watercourse nearby:-)
Reality concurs
There is/was the Mill Stream running just to the south of the shed.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=50.6657&lon=-2.5889&layers=168&b=1
Presumably that's where the supply was taken from - I'd guess via a simple pumping engine in the tower base similar to the set-up that used to exist at Williton.
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Got a response from the Senior Curator at M Shed...
319 was overpainted with whitewash on top of Red Lead (!), so all that had to be removed to reveal what we see today. He makes no comment about the whitewash (so I presume that fell off fairly easily), but the Red Lead was carefully abraded away with...
Vim!
Never thought of using that one in my archaeological diggings - 40 grit in a belt sander, yes, Vim, not so much. I see the logic - it'd act as a *very* controllable abrasive paste allowing the bare minimum to be removed.
I think this explains the paleness of the cream too. It hasn't darkened/yellowed/warmed up as a result of the varnish, as the original varnish has been Vimmed away, along with any ingrained traffic film which is why it looks so clean.
Big thanks to Andy King at M Shed for the background on this.
P.
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The Bristol Museum page for 319 is here:— http://museums.bristol.gov.uk/details.php?irn=138493
I've e-mailed them with an enquiry as to what has been done to it since its recovery, as it looks as though the panels were overpainted with a solid colour (white?) which has been removed to reveal all.
How this was done is, obviously, quite important.
BG 250 has a much richer cream on the surface, but that I put down to the fact that it was painted with hot tar when it became a foresters' refuge & discoloured as a result; deeper layers (of which I think there are two) are noticeably lighter, but show clear 'banding' at each layer of varnish . The bottom-most layer is quite possibly B&E Lake as it corresponds to McDermot's description of it becoming "to all appearance black when soiled with wear.”*
P.
*History of the GWR Vol 2 Ch 16, p. 301
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I do wonder which/how many carriages received the experimental all-chocolate livery in 1903. I know a D29 (or possibly a D40) was amongst them, so possibly a rake of corridor clerestories. But were none corridor clerestories included as well?
Dana
Add 70' M.8 No.822 to the list. Two excellent photos in Russell's Coaches appendix Vol 2 (Figs 428 & 429) mis-captioned as 'Crimson Lake'.:—
Note the numbers in the eaves (without any fancy shading thereon), and also the pre 1911* Garter on the centre door. Also of interest is the mouldings are picked out in black & there is a light (Gold? White?) line on the upper panels.
* The post 1911 Garter has 4 white 'flashes' at the diagonal centres & these usually show up even on under-lit photos. Lake lettering & numbering has very fancy shading, again with a white component that stands out.
Pete S.
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...With regard to the coach livery, some time ago I attached a photo of the BG coach at the Bristol Transport Museum. I gather that, very regrettably, this is now in store but as I recollect, when withdrawn it was made into a house (hovel may be a more appropriate word) and panelling was applied over the coach side. As a result, when discovered, the side was in exactly the condition it was when withdrawn. The original photo, before the file size was reduced, shows that the coach numbers were in the typeface as described by K14, but yellow with a reddish brown, perhaps slightly lighter, shading, and located in a panel over the door window. Incidentally, although difficult to differentiate between yellow and gilt the numbers on the Bristol coach (319-D) are distinctly more yellow than the gold "First" lettering. The "First" etc. lettering style looks to have never changed until WW2 when a more modern typeface was introduced. The upper panels were white rather than cream but then it's well known that this was a result of the varnish aging. The upper panels had very thin black lining, it wouldn't be noticeable in 4mm, whilst the lower panels were lined in black with a thin white line either side. Bolection mouldings were unpainted mahogany.
Incidentally, what did the "D" after the coach number denote?
There's a hi-res photo of 319 on Flickr:—
https://www.flickr.com/photos/miocene/4849536836/sizes/l
This shows the upper-body lining to be brown (or possibly Indian Red) & not black. Unfortunately the door numbering is washed out by the flash, but 250 at Didcot has similar lettering in addition to the more conventional numbers in the eaves panels. I can only assume thet they're individual door numbers - 319 has C & D, 250 has R (fragment), T & W, & I also recorded A and c. The incidence of letters from the far end of the alphabet rather suggests that trains were permanently coupled as sets and painted as such.
Herewith scans of the tracings I took of 250's remnants:—
With regards to door lettering, there are differences over the years:—
The difference 'twixt apparent yellow & gold might be explained by the use of transfers versus hand-applied gold leaf. I've seen transfers where a gilt effect was achieved by overprinting translucent yellow onto a silver foil - when the light catches it it's definitely gold, but in other lights it's decidedly yellow.
Pete S. -
Interesting to see the statement in Moore's that:—
"...the numbers which appear along the upper portion are in yellow, shaded with brown."
The mortal remains of BG No. 250 at Didcot broadly confirm this, although I'd describe the brown as being decidedly red - a dark terracotta - & the face of the numbers is definitely gilt. Bolstered by photographic evidence the numbers are decidedly 'chunkier' than those used later.
My attempt at a reconstructed set based on 250:—
Pete S.
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That’s brilliant thanks, Job for tomorrow while the restaurant third side is drying
The uploader mangled the plan a bit, hopefully this crop will be a bit clearer:—
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There is a door with droplight at both ends of the corridor as well as the pair amidships for loading the kitchen & pantry. On the non-corridor side the L/H end door is blanked off as there's a fair amount of cupboardage on the other side of it.
Gas Tanks - The originals are long gone as it was converted to Propane in BR days.
This might help though:—
Pete S.-
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P, thanks your entry. Sorry about my previous attempt to reply.
It's a great shame that the coach side has been put into store. When I first saw it I thought it was remarkable but in a general transport museum with so many people these days interested in cars I guess they thought the space was better turned over to the Bristol Motor Company. It would be better if the remains of the coach were loaned to someone like the GWS at Didcot where it would be better appreciated.
I'd love it to be at Didcot but we've nowhere to display it, so it's better off where it is at the moment. We do have the mortal remains of BG No. 250 that I've 'excavated' some livery details from - it's viewable in the Carriage shed, but I'd hesitate to describe it as being on display.
On the subject of roofs & colours, this might be of interest:—
Taken at Swindon early 1900s. For some reason the Dean van has been hauled outside, interrupting the painters mid-tosh. The contrast between the white & the be-crudded colour is remarkable.
White might seem to be a 'daft' colour to pick, but I suspect that's more down to cost & ease of use. The bedding compound for a roof canvas was a mix of white lead, putty & linseed oil that was spread liberally over the boards & the canvas stretched over whilst it was still wet. More coats of this jollop were applied on top to seal everything in. White lead will darken in a polluted atmosphere, and the linseed would mean that it'd take weeks to fully dry, so soot, cinders & semi-carbonised cylinder oil from the loco will stick to it like **** to the proverbial blanket. Even with modern paints it happens - have a look at photos of SRM 93 - canvas covering but painted with modern bitumastic & that crud won't wash off!
Pete.
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The train from Cardiff gets into Didcot at 11.15, so I should be happily wandering around by 11.30 ish :-)
Alas I have an unavoidable appointment in Saaf London at 14:30, so will probably be away by/around then. Any other day & I'd have been happy to do a pre-emptive RMWeb tour.
Pete.
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A piece of genuine GWR coal would be a lovely find, I'll keep my eyes out!:-)
The Ash Road under the coaling stage - when coaling from tubs some invariably misses & gets smashed as it hits the concrete. No good for locos as it'll get sucked straight off the shovel & up the chimney.
What time are you planning on getting there on Weds?
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Re the 'M Shed' coach - here's a link to the Bristol Museum page for it:— http://museums.bristol.gov.uk/details.php?irn=138493 — pity it's listed as 'in store' & not on public display
They also have another one:— http://museums.bristol.gov.uk/details.php?irn=139196
P.
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I'll add my support for the blue as well - at least one of the serif'd running in boards at Didcot showed traces of blue paint where subsequent layers had chipped off. I'd describe it as French Blue, but it had undoubtedly faded. This style of board was entirely cast - they're rather substantial things & prone to breaking (we have one for Aldermaston that's in two bits & they're b*ggers to weld) the letters are not only raised on the front but recessed at the back, almost as though they were embossed.
The only enamelled blue boards I've seen concur with Northroader's description.
Link to photo:— http://www.redbubble.com/people/sassygirl/works/2153164-gwr-station-signs-didcot-railway-centreAs to a typeface for the latter, the Franklin Gothic family is in the ball park, especially the heavier versions. I suspect that with a bit of skulduggery in Inkscape they could be tweaked about to get a closer match.
The bike shed has been de-cluttered, so you should be able to get some decent shots of the running-in boards displayed there.
FWIW all the running-in boards at Didcot are either originals or, for the timber-framed ones, made with cast iron letters recovered over the years from various sites.Pete S.
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Sadly, it ain't so. 11152 was subject to a pretty comprehensive repair at Didcot in the late 80s, so was 'bare metalled'.
Work done included:-
Cutting off 12-18" of the roof at the eaves & welding/riveting new 1/4" plate,
Chopping approx 2 feet off the bottom of the ends & scrapping most of the bodyside panels then welding/riveting in new plate (actually 16 swg coach tin as that was all that was available - tap it & it goes 'boing'),
New doors, and,
Replacing the floor with 3" of concrete so it could be used for oily greasy things like crane bits.
The underframe was thoroughly needle-gunned too.
Paint spec back then was (IIRC):
1 coat 'Manders' Red Oxide
1-2 coats grey undercoat
2 topcoats (Blue)
Signwriting - 'Salvage Save For Victory' & bogus number 47305
Chassis - 1 coat extra thick B.R. spec 'Chassis' black.
In the late 90s it was repainted into FS Grey with 25" GW, & repainted again c.2013 still in FSG but with the smaller 'G.W.R' branding.
As to the wheels... the odds of 11152 retaining its original wheelsets/boxes/brasses/springs are so tiny they're probably quantum. That said, one of my early tasks at Didcot was to re-instate the brake rigging on Tevan 79933 & repaint the underframe while I was at it. One of the wheelsets has a tyre date of (I think) 1917 & cleaning up in the roots of the spokes with an angle grinder revealed that the Factory method of painting wheels was a coat (or two) of Red Lead followed by a generous application of hot tar. The inner sections of underframe seemed to have been toshed over with Red Lead & then ignored for 70 years.
Likely candidates for survival? Not many I fear. Doubtless there are other contenders out there, but most will have had any original paint restored out of existence a long while ago. Look for examples with getting on for 1/4" of paint on them & you *might* get lucky.
Fruit 47886/2356 (1892) is a maybe as I'm not certain if the underframe has ever been stripped right back. Even if it hasn't, it'll have to keep until it next gets scheduled for attention (whenever that might be). I suspect that the Mites 32337/8 may harbour information, but there are a lot of Chatham Dockyard mods on them, so I'm not holding my breath.
Pete S.
C&W Dept.,
GWS Didcot.-
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GWR 4-plank wagon
in Netherport - GWR 1908 7mm (mostly wagons for now!)
A blog by magmouse in RMweb Blogs
Posted
Definitely WILLIAMS PATENT. I reckon there's a rivet at each end which throws the eye off.