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Slater's GWR dia. C10 clerestory coach


Mikkel

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I’m building a Slaters kit for a  GWR bogie clerestory third to diagram C10. The coach is intended for a motley Edwardian stopping train consisting of a variety of carriage styles, as was common on the GWR in the 1900s. But first it will be used in a re-enactment of the 1911 railway strike, and is therefore in the 1908-1912 all brown livery (as yet un-lined). 

 

 

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This post summarizes the build.  It's a long post but I'm told the kits are due back on the market so perhaps this can help give others an impression of what's involved and avoid my mistakes!

 

 

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What you get. Lots of bits. Wheels weren’t included.

 

 

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The plastic components are crisp and detailed. I did spend some time cleaning away flash. The larger bits of flash are minimal and not a problem, but there are thin strips of flash along the upper edges of the windows which require care.

 

 

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I used Limonene (two coats) to bond the sides, which worked well enough. The Magnetic Clamps are from Smart Models.

 

 

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The partitions were then fitted, followed by the roof. I opened out the notches in the roof for the partitions, so that the roof could be taken on and off during the build.

 

 

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The seats are quickly made and fit nicely in the compartments - not always the case with kit seats!

 

 

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The clerestory structure was quickly built up. The ends and clerestory parts are “handed” with different details at each end.

 

 

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The underframe, solebars and headstocks were then fitted. Etched brass snuck in via the "racking plate" , which was glued in place.

 

 

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I then turned to the bogies. 

 

 

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They fold up nicely.

 

 

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One mistake was to put off strengthening the  stepboard supports with solder. They are very fragile and will soon break off otherwise. The photo shows the ones I managed to rescue, the rest were replaced with wire  later on.

 

 

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The inside frame and rocking mechanism was then made.

 

 

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The principle of the kits - at least those produced until now - is that the wheels run in the inside frame using "inside bearings". Brass wire hold the wheels in place and allow sprung movement. This design has drawn critical comments from people who struggled to get good running. I understand that it will be changed when the kits are re-released.

 

 

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In any case, I lacked the correct axles so decided to go for an alternative approach, using Alan Gibson pinpoint axles in ordinary bearings. Thanks to @Darwinian for the idea.

 

 

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For this approach to work, the pinpoint bearings must fit perfectly into the recessed aperture around the hole in the bogie sides - seen here - and must be of the right depth. Otherwise the sides will splay. 

 

 

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Using the right bearings was therefore critical. I tried various types including 2mm Top Hat bearings but these would not accommodate the axles within the bogie frames. Eventually I used these waisted bearings plundered from old Coopercraft kits, as seen above. 

 

 

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The ends of the bearings did need some filing so that the axleboxes would fit over them. Filing the inside of the axleboxes also helped.

 

 

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With this simplified approach the inner frame was not strictly required, but I decided to fit it anyway to add strength and hold the rocking mechanism.

 

 

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 Are you still awake? Captions welcome.

 

 

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The bogie interiors were gradually becoming inaccessible so I primed them and painted the Mansell wheels. The latter are brownish red as a loose indication of varnished redwood (see good discussion on Western Thunder).

 

 

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A silly mistake cost me dearly. I forgot to fit brake shoes until the wheels were firmly in place. Retrofitting the 16 shoes was a hellish task. As a result the various brake pull yokes didn’t fit properly, so much of that is just indicated with brass wire.

 

 

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Once back on track, the cross stays and scroll irons were fitted. There are useful close-ups and drawings of Dean bogies in Russell's GWR Coaches Part 1 p. 93-95.

 

 

 

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The scroll irons were then cut to allow the bogie to rotate. Not exactly neat cuts, they were filed later. I do need a proper flush cutter.

 

 

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In order for the bogies to rotate, the frames have to be modified at each end.

 

 

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I hope I got the position of the gas cylinders right. I peered into the murky darkness of prototype photos and Didcot's C10, which suggests it's more or less OK.

 

 

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Next the underframe details were fitted.

 

 

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I shortened the queen posts, as I felt the truss rods ended up too low if fitted as intended. Prototype photos like this one (and the C10 at Didcot) shows them higher up and fairly discrete. Unless truss rods changed over the years?

 

 

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I didn't fancy "trapping" the bogies with the brake pull rods, so just fitted this single rod held by (unprototypical) vertical mounts. The bogie can be slid out underneath it. Bit of a bodge but at least something is there for those rare glimpses.

 

 

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The main buffer components. There’s an option of springing them, though I didn’t use it. The instructions state that the buffers "consisted of a curved oval steel plate bolted onto a round buffer head". 

 

 

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The outer plate needs to be lightly curved and then fitted to the buffer heads. I didn't make a good job of this, it looks a bit odd. If I do another one I'll see if ready-made buffers can be obtained instead.

 

 

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Next the stepboard hangers went on. This required patience as the hangers, solebars and stepboards all need modification for the parts to fit, as also indicated in the instructions.

 

 

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The material used for the stepboards somehow managed to be both bendy and brittle at the time, though note that this is a secondhand kit of some age. My adjustable multi-purpose jig a.k.a. “The Piano” saved the day.

 

 

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The lower stepboards were then fitted. I later found that the bogie stepboards had to be shortened approx. 1,5 mm to clear the central stepboard. The hangers for the latter also need modification or they will stick out oddly.

 

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It’s striking what a difference stepboards make to the appearance of a coach.

 

 

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From there on it was plain sailing. The roof was detailed using the as lamp tops in the kit, and 0.3mm (0.010") brass wire.

 

 

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Steps fitted at one end, and putty to fill out the corner joins. In 1911 the GWR experimented with Bluetack on buffers in response to complaints about rough riding. The idea was abandoned when a Slip coach destined for Weymouth was found still attached at Penzance.

 

 

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After priming, the interior was painted. I decided to leave the 48 picture frames untouched. Chris: I did try painting them as you suggested but soon realized that it should have been done while the partitions were still on the sprue.

 

 

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The coach sides were brush-painted with my normal method of multiple coats (5 in this case) of much thinned Vallejo acrylics, using a broad flat brush. In the photo a fresh coat is being applied.

 

 

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The coach was painted all-brown as per the 1908-1912 livery. The photos I have show light to dark grey rooves (probably the usual darkening) with no brown beneath the rainstrips.

 

 

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Commode- and door handles were then added, followed by lettering and insignia. The 1908 livery had the garter in the center, and crests either side with "GWR" above. The position of the crests at the outer ends makes for an unbalanced look and takes some getting used to.

 

 

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But that's how it appears in this crop of a 1911 photo of a scene I'll be modelling.  Perhaps this extreme position of the crests was in fact a particular feature of the little explored 1908-1912 livery - brakes excepted? Photos of bogie coaches in the all brown livery are rare, but there is a Toplight in Russell 's GWR coaches which also has the crests just before the last passenger door at each end. The photo in Slinn's Great Western Way has the crests further in, but on inspection that coach has guard doors at each end, and so there would not have been room to put the crests further out on that particular coach (crests were kept clear of doors). Of course in 1912 the GWR did move the crests further in, with just a single "GWR" placed above the garter.

 

 

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The 1908 livery saw the introduction of black ends. The hand rails are 0.3 mm wire from Wizard Models, which I found easier to shape than the wire in the kit. Vaccuum pipes and couplings to follow.

 

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So far I have never lined my Edwardian coaches, a pragmatic decision  in order to get things built and running. In this case it does add to the austere appearance though. Perhaps it's time to try out an Easi-Liner pen.

 

Anyway, that's the current state of play. My original plan was to use this livery for a photo shoot of selected 1911 scenes and then repaint it in pre-1906 livery with cream panels. However I must admit that the sombre look is growing on me. Something to ponder.

 

 

Edited by Mikkel

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Sensational work, Mikkel. It looks stunning.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

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The bottom pic, even in its unlined state, will be just what gwr.org.uk needs to fill that long-missing coach livery gap!

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Very nice job of it Mikkel (when I managed to open the post, going via the "view new content" page).  Well done on the roof gas pipework - makes such a difference and isn't the easiest of things to get right.  The're handsome coaches in any livery but I'm inclined to agree that sombre brown doesn't do them any harm and, as a distinctive livery, definitely has a first decade (nearly at 1911) of the C20th charm of its own.

Kit PW

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Well done, it looks superb.

 

I must admit, that if I have a kit and it tells me the parts need modifying, (cos we have not designed it properly), I would be more than slightly irritated, so it is good to know that if I do tackle these what I will need to do.  It looks like the interiors will have to be painted first.

 

What about glazing?  I had a go at 'Glue and Glaze' last week and found the results as unsatisfying as using PVA, not for sticking I hasten to add, but for making the actual glass.

 

I think I have heard of those liners before, I shall have to see if, when I get round to it, my felt tips actually work, if not I shall take another look and follow your progress with them.

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Very nice build and a great paint job. The compartment detail is good on these coaches. 

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Lovely build and descriptors Mikkel, thank you for sharing. I have been thinking about that all brown livery for a while for a rescue I have lurking could be just the push I need. Looking forward to your lining and 'photo shoot'.

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Lovely, thank you. And thanks for the link to the easi-liner. As you know I'm struggling with my LNWR horsebox lining out and that looks like just the ticket...

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I can only echo what others have already said.  It's always useful to know what goes together easily and where the problems arise - and how to overcome them.  Perhaps, one day, I shall replace my old Tri-angs with some of these 🙂

 

Mike

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Quite an involved job, and you’ve ended up with a very good looking model.

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

17 hours ago, drduncan said:

Very nice.

D

 

Thanks Duncan. I do like clerestory coaches. I think you were going to print some yourself at one point? Looking forward to see those.

 

 

17 hours ago, Brinkly said:

Sensational work, Mikkel. It looks stunning.

 

All the best,

 

Nick.

 

Thank you Nick. At first I kept glancing at my Triang-bashed C10 and wondering why I hadn't just done another one like that, but the Slater's kit do make it worthwhile once they're done I think.

 

 

16 hours ago, mullie said:

A great post, looks stunning.

 

Martyn

 

Thanks Martyn. The Railway Magazine didn't think so! In June 1905 the magazine observed some GWR coaches painted experimentally in all-brown, and wrote:

 

"In the RAILWAY MAGAZINE for August, 1903, page 168, we called attention to the fact that the Great Western Railway was experimenting with deeper shades of the standard colours chosen nearly seventy years ago by Brunel, whose fine artistic taste was never questioned by his most determined enemies. The experiment has developed in a much more pronounced form, and passenger rolling stock is now dinning wholly painted brown and only relieved by gold lining. 


Doubtless this new development is but a tentative measure called forth by economic considerations, and we therefore refrain from expressing an opinion on the glaring ugliness of the vehicles that are running in the new livery, because we feel sure that the directors of the Great Western Railway will recognise that economy can be purchased too dearly, and that the saving of a few thousands a year in paint can be lost a hundred times over in directions directly traceable to the colour of the rolling stock.

 

Apart from mere opinion, however, the following facts must carry weight. The Great Central, Furness and Caledonian are railways which have, during recent years, abandoned sombre shades of paint, and adopted pleasing colour schemes for the exteriors of their passenger coaches. A portion of the large increase in passenger traffic on these progressive lines can fairly be traced to the improved appearance of the exteriors of the coaches. Why, even the Metropolitan, in making a bid for increased traffic, is abandoning its teak colour for white! 

 

The value of an inviting exterior is recognised by every trader, or why are shop fronts to-day so much more imposing than was the practice even ten years ago? The answer is: To attract the attention (and custom) of the man in the street. It is the custom of the man in the street that railways desire, and "to win the eye is to win all!"


Westward, the London and South-Western Railway is the Great Western Railway's chief competitor, and the colour adopted by the former line is far preferable to the all brown shades now under trial on the Great Western Railway. Northward, the Great Western Railway meets the London and North-Western Railway, but how will the new colours compare with the pleasing shades that have helped to make the London and North-Western Railway famous? 

 

Apart from the monetary question, the directors of the Great Western Railway cannot afford to neglect public sentiment, which has always associated good taste and artistic fitness with the progress of our longest railway, we therefore have little doubt that the experiment will not be persisted in. Perhaps readers of the RAILWAY MAGAZINE will favour us with their views on the subject."

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

16 hours ago, Miss Prism said:

The bottom pic, even in its unlined state, will be just what gwr.org.uk needs to fill that long-missing coach livery gap!

 

By all means. If I decide to line it I'll send another photo. I haven't got the numbers on yet BTW, they should be in the outermost waist panels at both ends.

 

 

16 hours ago, kitpw said:

Very nice job of it Mikkel (when I managed to open the post, going via the "view new content" page).  Well done on the roof gas pipework - makes such a difference and isn't the easiest of things to get right.  The're handsome coaches in any livery but I'm inclined to agree that sombre brown doesn't do them any harm and, as a distinctive livery, definitely has a first decade (nearly at 1911) of the C20th charm of its own.

Kit PW

 

Thanks Kit, and sorry about all the "test post" alerts, there's a bug in the system but I think I've solved it for next time.

 

The roof pipework does make a difference. There's a good drawing of it in the kit instructions as you may remember (well in my 4mm version at least). The only problem is that it will now show off the missing pipework on all my other coaches 😆 

 

 

16 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Well done, it looks superb.

 

I must admit, that if I have a kit and it tells me the parts need modifying, (cos we have not designed it properly), I would be more than slightly irritated, so it is good to know that if I do tackle these what I will need to do.  It looks like the interiors will have to be painted first.

 

What about glazing?  I had a go at 'Glue and Glaze' last week and found the results as unsatisfying as using PVA, not for sticking I hasten to add, but for making the actual glass.

 

I think I have heard of those liners before, I shall have to see if, when I get round to it, my felt tips actually work, if not I shall take another look and follow your progress with them.

 

Many thanks Chris. The glazing for the 1911 railway strike version will be all smashed up, as sadly there was a tragedy at the time. So I need to distress some perspex. Later I will just mount clean pespex behind the windows.

 

It will be interesting to see your results with felt tips. They will have the advantage of good control, as you can tilt them any which way you want. I don't know whether the Easi-Liner can do that.

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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15 hours ago, Charlie586 said:

Very nice build and a great paint job. The compartment detail is good on these coaches. 

 

Thanks Charlie. I'm thinking some of your 6-wheeler sides will join this coach in a stopping train. I like the mix-and-match style GWR trains of the period, as discussed here:

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Bluemonkey presents.... said:

Lovely build and descriptors Mikkel, thank you for sharing. I have been thinking about that all brown livery for a while for a rescue I have lurking could be just the push I need. Looking forward to your lining and 'photo shoot'.

 

Hi Matt, many thanks. The rescue sounds intriguing. While painting this coach it occurred to me that the all-brown was actually more revealing in some ways, because there aren't any lovely cream panels to distract the eye 😀

 

 

14 hours ago, Lacathedrale said:

Lovely, thank you. And thanks for the link to the easi-liner. As you know I'm struggling with my LNWR horsebox lining out and that looks like just the ticket...

 

I haven't tried the Easi-liner yet, but will have a go. One thing I wonder about is how it will deal with lining in small waist-panels. Anyway there is some discussion of the tool in this thread: 

 

 

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Someone remind me, when did the changeover from single-pipe lighting to double-pipe lighting start?

 

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12 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

I can only echo what others have already said.  It's always useful to know what goes together easily and where the problems arise - and how to overcome them.  Perhaps, one day, I shall replace my old Tri-angs with some of these 🙂

 

Mike

 

Thank you Mike. With your experimental spirit I bet you'll end up printing them instead 😀

 

I personally think the Triang stock works well on its own, it's only when compared directly with the dedicated kits that you being to see the issues. My plan is to keep them separate, e.g. in different trains.

 

 

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

Quite an involved job, and you’ve ended up with a very good looking model.

 

Many thanks, yes they do take time. As I've now learnt, they are probably best approached as "mixed media" kits, rather than "this is a plastic kit so it will go together quickly".

 

It was mentioned in the workbench that the bogies will be updated when they are re-released. Perhaps that will help make them more approachable.

 

 

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

15 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

Someone remind me, when did the changeover from single-pipe lighting to double-pipe lighting start?

 

 

Uh-oh, that sounds omnious. A search reveals a 2013 discussion here, I must have a closer look: 

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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Mikkel,
What colour brown is the coach?
Is it the brown as used in the choc and Cream or another shade please?

Khris

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11 hours ago, Mikkel said:

I bet you'll end up printing them instead

You may be correct but I'll have to escape from my pre-1850 mind-set first 🙂

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

On 30/05/2022 at 12:38, kandc_au said:

Mikkel,
What colour brown is the coach?
Is it the brown as used in the choc and Cream or another shade please?

Khris

 

Hi Khris, I just mixed up my usual GWR brown from Vallejo 984 flat brown and 950 black (used 822 previously but the formula for that one seems to have changed). 

 

Whether the prototype brown was different from the two-tone scheme is unclear. Some suggest that it was a deeper/richer shade. Harris in "GW coaches" calls it Chocolate Lake and sounds like he is using  an official GWR description, but IIRC I haven't seen anyone else use that term.

 

The visual effect of one all-over colour is quite different from a two-tone scheme, so it would be easy to think that the browns were different even if they weren't. An official GWR record of a change would be the only really reliable evidence, I think. Or a paint sample from an old coach.

 

 

Edited by Mikkel
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I have mentioned before on here and elsewhere that many are of the opinion that there was never a brown period. Rather the change in 1908 was to lake which weathered to brown quickly until the GWR got to grips with red paint. As acknowledged in GWW, there is no contemporary record of a change in 1912

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Mikkel

Posted (edited)

Interesting. So a bit like the rooves then, which started out white.

 

I love an unresolved issue like this! 

 

Some reflections:

 

1. The lack of a record of a livery change is not unknown in other circumstances, remember the red to grey wagon livery debate. So that is not necessarily a deciding factor, in my view.

 

2. The no-brown theory would make the  contemporary observations of the Railway Magazine wrong. I've often cautioned against relying too much on the latter, but they do insist on repeatedly describing the colour as brown in their further  pursuit of the issue from 1908 onwards - see my compilation of quotes in the second pdf here: 

 

 

Since the staff of the Railway Magazine are so provoked by the issue, it seems odd that they would not have noticed the intended redder lake colour on freshly painted coaches over a four-year period?

 

3. We know that the lettering and insignia *did* change- not just in 1908, but also again after that when e.g. the "GWR" was moved to the center above the garter. A close study of coach building dates and their ex-works liveries could help here, but meanwhile see Penhros' useful illustrations and visualisation here: 

http://www.gwrcoaches.org.uk/

 

 

Edited to clarify.

 

Edited by Mikkel
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The only way to try to resolve this would be to go through the minutes of the various GWR committee meetings that should reside in the National archives. Of course you are looking for a minute that may not exist if the change never happened. 
 

So I have resolved to paint my stock crimson lake (1912) and nothing in full brown.  The single line livery is also quite a challenge to line because there is no black on the raised moulding against which to clean up a wonky line.  The choice of paint is crucial as anything too thin will spread making a thicker line than intended; not to mention the colour. I have acquired some PP Gorse Yellow gloss with which to experiment. 

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With your 1912 layout setting I can see the dilemma and the logic of your decision.

 

I've just read the following thread again, where you mention that the varnishing might have made a difference:

 

 

At the time you mentioned a discussion on another forum. The gwr e-list maybe?

 

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1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

 

At the time you mentioned a discussion on another forum. The gwr e-list maybe?

 


Yes that’s correct though I think it’s moved servers since. 
 

it may not have been just the varnish but the undercoat too. If the GWR used the same undercoat as they did for the brown in the brown and cream livery then this would have soon shown through if they skimped on the topcoat and this wore off. 

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