That looks very good indeed Kit. I see what you mean about the edges of the film, but if you can get that improved it seems a viable way to go. You say you don't have a steady hand but you could have fooled me, it looks printed.

It's also a very nice wagon in itself, I don't think you've shown it before. What is its origins please?

Hi Kit - just to say I am following this with interest, as I want to do some bespoke PO wagons. I have nearly finished a very old Slaters 7mm kit for an 'Ocean' wagon, which I got second hand. The printed lettering had gone rather yellow, so I have hand-painted over it. Although if the light catches it in a certain way you can see the brush marks, I still prefer the solidity of the painted look to the printed lettering, even if the yellowing had not been an issue.

Please share your findings with the (hopefully) thinner transfer film. Did you use Microsol or similar to try to help with the issues of the edges showing? I also wonder if you could hide the edges more by making the piece of transfer film bigger, so it goes all the way to the strapping at the sides, and to the top of the wagon side and to a plank line at the bottom.

Here's the Ocean - I hope you don't mind me posting it here.

Thanks Kit - yes, the strapping is a challenge when the lettering goes over it. My Dad was a great PO wagon enthusiast, and built and painted a large number of models, initially in 4mm and later in 7mm scale. He quite often used rub-down lettering as a starting point, and painted over it to adjust the letter shapes and ensure a dense white. With scratch-built wagons, he would sometimes do the lettering before adding the strapping, then touch up by eye afterwards - a technique that could also work with waterslide transfers. Or with a kit, perhaps cut away the film where the strapping is, and fill in with paint by eye.

With the microsol, it can certainly help the transfer sit over rivets and into plank lines, but it isn't a silver bullet. As with any transfer, having a gloss surface and going over with a matt varnish after to get the final finish is best (though it goes against all my instincts!).

What make is the white acrylic ink you use for the lettering? I might try that? I used Vallejo acrylic paint on the Ocean wagon, which is OK but it dries quite fast and you have to be careful it doesn't get too thick and blobby on the brush.

I like your weathering, by the way - nicely subtle.

Nick.

Thanks for the info about the ink - I'll give it a try.

When my Dad was doing his lettering, he used the wide variety of Letraset then available (in the pre-computer days when they were an essential tool in graphic design). I don't think the range or quality is available now, though a quick web search shows you can still get rub-down letters.

Nick.

23 hours ago, kitpw said:

The dry brush sand colour on the metalwork - promptly "reduced" with an old soft toothbrush - enhances the moulding depth/height and I added a touch of Vallejo gunmetal grey to the almost black underframe colour which seems to make it look more like painted iron/steel than painted plastic.

Thanks for that tip, the effect is very convincing. I hadn't heard of the soft toothbrush tip before.

16 hours ago, magmouse said:

Thanks for the info about the ink - I'll give it a try.

 

When my Dad was doing his lettering, he used the wide variety of Letraset then available (in the pre-computer days when they were an essential tool in graphic design). I don't think the range or quality is available now, though a quick web search shows you can still get rub-down letters.

 

Nick.

I have used the current Letraset sheets on occasion, though not on wagons. Works OK, though the fonts that I could source didn't quite suit period wagons.

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

Works OK, though the fonts that I could source didn't quite suit period wagons.

'Proper' typefaces have all sorts of subtleties of design for aesthetic effect and readability. Traditional sign-writing doesn't have those nuances, so often it is a matter of small adjustments to make the rub-down lettering typeface less sophisticated in design terms. Sign-writing generally uses simple geometries, so you need to get rid of subtle curves, strokes that vary a little in width, and so on. The shape of letters with rounded sides (O, D, C, G, Q) and the way the legs of K and R are drawn are important to get the right character. My Dad always reckoned the letter S was the hardest to get right, and sometimes avoided doing PO liveries with too many Ss in!

Nick.

20 minutes ago, kitpw said:

Letraset and computer equivalents are closely related to print typography, not hand painted lettering.

Our posts crossed, but yes, exactly that. Another interesting byway that railway modelling takes you down!

A key difference between most block-style fonts and signwritten letters is that the former generally have narrower horizontals than verticals whereas the latter have equal width - the E in OCEAN above would be my Exhibit A, if it were not an E...

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

A key difference between most block-style fonts and signwritten letters is that the former generally have narrower horizontals than verticals whereas the latter have equal width - the E in OCEAN above would be my Exhibit A, if it were not an E...

Yes - the sense I have is that signwriting - at least the kind on PO wagons - was based on simple geometries that could be set out with ruler and chalk, and perhaps a piece of string to do the curves (which would all therefore be arcs of a circle. Some things can't be done easily that way - an ampersand, for example - but those could be set out by eye and a few rules of thumb to get the proportions right.

Is there any archival material that covers this, evidencing the methods used?

Nick.

5 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Is there any archival material that covers this, evidencing the methods used?

There was a photo posted not long ago of the paint shop in one of the LNER wagon works c. mid-20s, with the letters NE being painted on a line of wagons. That looked to be all experience and a steady hand. But no curves in NE!

6 minutes ago, magmouse said:

Some things can't be done easily that way - an ampersand, for example

Browsing through the PO wagon books, one sees some decidedly wonky ampersands!

Thanks for pointing me towards Slinn's Great Western Way - on p119, there is an excerpt from a circular issued by the CME's office on 17 August 1921 regarding the change of lettering from 25" to 16". It refers to a "set of zinc templates" that have been supplied - presumably to be used in the setting out of the paper outline you referred to?

I wonder though if there method might be different for private owner wagons, especially those were only a small number were being painted in a particular livery at a time. Making templates wouldn't be worth the time, so the letters might be set out one paper directly. 

Nick.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

There was a photo posted not long ago of the paint shop in one of the LNER wagon works c. mid-20s, with the letters NE being painted on a line of wagons. That looked to be all experience and a steady hand. But no curves in NE!

I suppose if that's what you do all day, every day, then you'd get quite good at doing it by eye, with the plank lines and other structural features of the wagon as a guide. And as you say, N and E are some of the easiest letters to set out. No need for the GWR's zinc templates...

There exist, and are reproduced in some of the PO wagon books, drawings prepared in the drawing offices of the wagon building firms, showing the intended layout of lettering. My hunch is that these were supplied to the signwriter, who then set to without much in the way of marking out.

23 hours ago, kitpw said:

my page 119 deals with permanent way and signals - 3rd impression of 1985

I have the 2009 revised and extended edition. The quote I referred to is in the section on wagon liveries, when it gets to the 1921 to 1937 period and the change from 25" lettering to 16". Possibly it isn't in the earlier edition, or just lands on a different page number.

Nick.

On 15/04/2022 at 22:14, Compound2632 said:

There was a photo posted not long ago of the paint shop in one of the LNER wagon works c. mid-20s, with the letters NE being painted on a line of wagons.

I remember that, may even have posted it from Getty, but cannot for the life of me find it again.

Failing that, a couple of shots from Doncaster works which may be of interest:

Caption: Workers using stencils, Doncaster works, South Yorkshire, c 1916. The stencils are used to write GNR (Great Northern Railway) on the sides of the carriages and wagons. Doncaster works, known as the 'Plant Works' opened in 1853, making and repairing locomotives and rolling stock for the Great Northern Railway. At this time the works employed around 3500 workers. Source: Getty Images, embedding permitted.

Caption:  Women workers at Doncaster works, South Yorkshire, c 1916. Women workers painting railway wagons at Doncaster carriage and wagon works. There were severe labour shortages on the railways in the First World War. Women moved from traditional jobs, such as cleaning and catering and employed in previously 'male' roles. Source: Getty Images, embedding permitted.

Note hand-painting of cast plate by the lady on the left.

On 15/04/2022 at 22:58, kitpw said:

The method most used, I believe, is 'pricking out' - an outline of the lettershape is drawn on paper and the paper taped to the wagon side (or signboard or whatever). The shape is then pricked out with a sharp point: a fine dust (chalk, flour) is then pounced over the lot, producing spots on the wagon side giving the outline.  The rest was down to the skill of the painter to follow the spots to get the shape required.  I don't have Slinn's 'Great Western Way' to hand right now but I think this method is described somewhere in the book and from a brief search on the internet, it's still in use today by traditional signwriters.  I suspect that railway companies must have had letter pattern books for signwriters to trace off the required lettershapes, for instance, for running in name boards and other painted signage, but my researches haven't yet come up with anything about that.  The other thing to look at, I guess, is pattern making at the foundry: there must have been some pretty accurate guidance on lettershapes for cast name plates etc and I would expect to find a drawing office manual detailing how the setting out was to be done - I can't think that such a book hasn't found its way into an archive somewhere.  More research to be done, I think!

 

K14 posted some details on pouncing here in this comment, though sadly now without the illustrations: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/blogs/entry/1351-signs-posters-and-adverts/?do=findComment&comment=71867

31 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

Women workers at Doncaster works, South Yorkshire, c 1916. Women workers painting railway wagons at Doncaster carriage and wagon works.

... but painting doors is still a man's job.

The woman on the right is clearly painting in the outline of an N, presumably the outline having been painted using a stencil - not chalked using a stencil.

However, whilst we're seeing stencils used in railway company paint shops (Gs would be especially tricky to paint freehand to a consistent shape), I remain doubtful of their use by the wagon building trade, where the quantities in any one livery would be far fewer and the width of lettering needing to be adapted to each case. That would require a very large stock of stencils.

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

The woman on the right is clearly painting in the outline of an N

Whilst her co-worker seems to be painting a fresh new coat of paint on the same wagon! Or perhaps varnishing it in preparation for the G ?

I'm sure they know what they're doing, but an "Ooops!" caption is very tempting 🙂