The Johnster

Not sure that replacing Victoria Bridge would have been an absolute, but it would certainly have been a massive difficulty. Replacing it with a replica would almost certainly have been impossible, but replacement with a box-girder or concrete beam sounds plausible; the railway did something very similar with the Bridgnorth by-pass bridge. If the preservation movement taught us anything, it is that little can not be achieved by determined men and women of common purpose, even with little cash and working in appalling conditions. I would cite the Ffestiniog's Deviation, a serious new-build railway in incredibly difficult terrain with some of the higherst rainfall in the country, as an example. Duke of Gloucester is another. Landslips seem to be becoming an increasingly common issue for the big railway, as Victorian civil engineering earthworks begin to fail with age and axle loads never dreamed of when they were built. The last 20 years of profit-taking and intense use have not helped either. Perhaps the Buddlea roots have destabilised things...

The GW, and subsequently the WR, had separate number series for different types of passenger and NPCC stock. An auto-trailer series and Railcar series certainly survived into BR days and carried the W suffix starting at number 1, and there were numbers 1 in coaching stock, horse box, carriage truck, and Cordon series but I am unsure when they were withdrawn, which could possibly be before 1948. There was an SRM series at one time as well.

Depth front to back is a little uncomfortable in terms of reaching across, I would suggest 30" maximum for this. The problem with these sorts of decisions is that you make them at the beginning of the layout-building process and convince yourself that reaching too far won't happen often and you'll be able to live with it, which does not take account of two problems that will (will, not might) arise later; firstly, that every time you have to reach and stretch to the back of the boards you will regret having made them that wide, and secondly, you are very probably on the same space-time continuum as most of us, which means you are not getting younger, which will make the problems worse over time until you get fed up and skip the layout, Getting these decisions right, now, saves money and effort and will result, I promise, in a more enjoyable railway. To compress Barmouth, I would build it for 5-coach trains on the Coast Line and 3-coach in the Ruabon Bay, and bring the footbridge in to the northern end of the Coast platforms as a scenic break. Then arrange the backscene to suggest that, instead of the long near-straight leading to Llanaber, the prominence of Graig Y Gigfran and the A496 coast road at it's foot are brought forwarad a hundred yards or so closer to the railway, which will now look as if it rounds a plausible left-curve towards Llanaber. This should leave room for the salient features of Barmouth Station. At the other end, bring the short rock tunnel in a bit closer for a shorter concrete beam viaduct on the curve behind the harbour. The real location gives an impression of being crowded and cramped at that end, opening out a bit to the north for the littoral plain, so a good impression can be managed despite the compression and having to omit some buildings; just model the more obvious and distinctive ones. Or, abandone the concrete viaduct/harbour section and make the southern scene-break a 4 or 5 storey hotel in front of the railway leading into the rock tunnel, subdued lighting, and the photo backdrop of Cadair Idris given eye-drawing prominence; it catches the eye well enough in real life.

And of course the CKD concept was never about reducing production costs, which it probably didn’t much anyway in the 1960s when there were fewer components to assemble anyway, it was a way of avoiding purchase tax, the precursor to VAT, and selling models to people who otherwise might not have bought them. Kits were exempt from purchase tax, RTR wasn’t.

Biodiversity on the Camrbian is good as well, though a little different; you lose the 14xx and panniers but gain 75xxx, 82xxx, and 80xxx, 45xx, & 4575. This is one of the reasons I suggested something based on a compressed Barmouth, because the Ruabon locos worked through to that station; also, it had some particularly interesting shunting movements and loco changes. GW/WR;14xx, 58xx, 54xx, 45xx, 4575, 43xx. 2251, Dean Goods, Dukedog, Manor. LMS/LMR; Ivatt 2MT small prairie and Ivatt 2MT. BR; 78xxx, 76xxx, 75xxx, 82xxx, 80xxx, Class 24, possibly Class 20. Dmus (mostly after closure of Ruabon line); 101, 108, 104, 105. All available from good quality RTR sources, along with a very good selection of the coaching stock one would need for the period. I am a little surprised that nobody seems to have had a crack at Barmouth before, at least that I'm aware of, it is perhaps a bit long, with the Cambrian Coast platforms and then the Ruabon bay extending towards the Bridge and the Junction. It is approached from the southern end around a very distinctive concrete beam viaduct at the back of the harbour through a rock tunnel and behind buildings that would make good scenic breaks, but is a bit more open to the north with only a footbridge to serve as a break. If it were to be operated/viewed from the shore side, as would make sense on a roundyround operated from the centre and built around the edges of the loft, then the beach and the sea are a convenient and fairly easy backdrop. from the other side the land rises steeply in a rocky slope with buildings clinging to it, a bit of a challenge but very satisfying if you are into that sort of thing, narrow lanes snaking up the hill. The southern end would need a photo backscene of Cadair Idris, which I believe is available from Gaugemaster.

Yes, I agree with Combe Martin's point, but was commenting mostly on Alexl's statement that a Dapol Middleton Colliery would be fine for his purposes because of his affinity with that colliery. His choice of course, but it seemed only right to me that it should be an informed choice, and that he is aware of the shortcomings of this model and it's Hornby equivalents.

I understand and sympathise, having lost several locos to Mainlines' split-axle obsession, but don't write of split current pick-up altogether! It is in many ways a very good idea, a product of the best of scratchbuilding practice in the 70s and 80s, when, with a combination of 3-point compensation, open frame chassis with split pick-up and Portescap motor/geaboxes some very highly detailed and superbly running locos were built. The move in RTR exemplified by the new RTR kids on the block, Airfix and Mainline, and to some extent Lima, was to produce models with good underframe detail and visible daylight beneath boilers, dispensing with the earlier boiler skirts. The new locos looked good, but failed to deliver good running because of the combination of feeble transversely mounted pancake motors that had to run at very high rpm to produce enough power (and even then were so underpowered that traction tyres had to be used) and then be geared down with plastic spur gears which introduced too much mechanical friction into the drives for good slow running. Mainline, rather bravely I thought, went for split chassis pickup in combination with this, but in order to keep the pricing at a competitive level did not specify components, especially the soft plastic central stub axles and the metal wheel stub axles, for reliabliity; wheelsets went out of quarter easily and were insanely difficult to get back in quarter reliably. Then, to top it off, the chassis half-blocks were prone to mazak rot. Poor design with poor materials. The result was that the models developed a poisonous reputation, reflected in the low prices they command on the Bay of e. Anyone aware of their performance knows that the model may run when they get it, but it will almost certainly expire terminally in a fairly short time. The cloud hanging over them has effectively prevented further development of the split chassis idea by British RTR companies; Sales Dept. advise very strongly against it, and the current use of powerful (and cheap as chips) Chinese can motors driving through worm and idler gear reduction, along with well-designed pickup wipers that impose minimal drag on the wheels, provides good power and controllable slow running. I have a 2h eBay early Bachmann 43xx chassis underneath a later Hornby large prairie body (derived from the old Airfix) which performs very well indeed, holding it's own against the current Hornby in this respect. This is a sort of combination hybrid mechanism from the early days of Bachmanns' inheritance of the 43xx from Mainline, and has Mainline-type chassis blocks and split current collection but a modern can motor and worm/idler drive. It performs duties that are light for a large prairie on my BLT, and has been running for over 2 years in frequent use, and I drive it gently so as not to provoke quartering issues; so far so good. There is no reason that a properly designed and built split chassis built to current standards of high-spec materials could not work well and reliably, and were I building a kit or scratch project I would certainly consider it, as pickups and me have a turbulent and unhappy history when it comes to adjusting them to provide minimum drag for good slow running. Design requirements would be; brass or nickel-silver open frames with electrically dead spacers enabling 3-point compensation suspension, rigid and resilient plastic for the stub axles and a firm and reliable attachment to the outer, live, quarter-axles for reliable quartering, modern can motor with worm/idler drive, easy access to axles for removal and cleaning to ensure good pickup performance through bearings, not direct to the frame like the Mainline chassis block/live axle interface. My entire modelling history of some 60 years can be regarded as a constant struggle to achieve good pickup performance and reliable, controllable, slow running, with success partial but incomplete to my required standards. This was achieved by kit and scratchbuilders in the 70s with Portescaps, split pickup, and 3-point compensation, and while current RTR running quality is a massive improvement over the 60s and an even more massive one over the retrograde attempts of the 70s and 80s, it needs 3-point compensation to achieve completely reliable, controllable, slow running, for which perfect pickup is necessary. If this were to be done (and I'm sure that improvements in plastic materials will enable it to be done cost-effectively eventually), it might then be worth dispensing with the wiper pickups (for split collection as a means of improving pickup reliability, and their braking effect. I live in hope...

Descalated?

In 8x2 feet, you could probably extend Gumstump & Snowshoe to include an exchange yard at the lower level to supply traffic from the rest of the world, and maybe another factory/quarry/mine/harbour for more shunting. Something else at the higher level as well perhaps. Or reverse the concept so that the gradient is downhill to a lower level at the front. I designed something like this for my own possible use years ago, a BLT with a connection to a lower level representing a previous horse-drawn tramroad that had been upgraded as an industrial branch but never incorporated into the main line network; lightly laid track, small engines, hired in 16xx perhaps. It was inspired by the Melingriffith Railway to the north of Cardiff, and an imaginary connection to it from Coryton station. Just thinking aloud. Gumstump's steep gradients and short zigzag headshunts mean that traffic has to be taken up or down two wagons at a time, which means more shunting, and more shunting means more quiet playtime for dad...

I was wondering this as well, Mon Capitain. Not interested personally, wrong gauge wrong period wrong area and any reasonable price is going to be out of my league, but I imagine it will not be difficult to find a buyer, and I'd find it a perfect shunting layout for home use if I was one of it's owners. One hopes it has a future; the thought of it being skipped is not acceptable!

That escalated quickly…

This goes to what I consider to be the heart of the matter. In your case you want a Middleton Colliery liveried wagon because of your affinity with the place, fair enough, but don’t you want a good one? Dapol’s 7-plank minerals are hopeless models (as are Hornby’s). Both use incorrect generic scale 10’ wheelbase chassis instead of the correct 9’, and stretch the body side panels and doors proportionally to suit, so there is nothing that you can do to work them up into better models. If you put scale chassis under them, the bodies overhang the buffer beams by 2mm at each end, and attempts cut the side panels to correct size are thwarted by the diagonal strapping, while the skewed proportions of the doors mean that the doorframe will be in the wrong place. Then, when you come to the chassis, you find 1980s tooling to the standard you’d expect; moulded handbrake levers and overscale detail. I’ll refrain from commenting on the moulded brakes, which are closer to the correct position than separate items on more detailed and recent models because of the 00 gauge anomaly, but I prefer my brake blocks to align with the wheels rather than visibly clawing at fresh air. In short, these wagons and 16ton all-steel minerals from the same makers are inferior in scale and detail to 21st century equivalents from Bachmann, Oxford, or Accurascale, and, in the case of the 16tonners, to plastic kit models available from Airfix, later Dapol and now Dapol Kitmaster, that have been around since 1962 when a 10-year-old Johnster had no trouble successfully building them. So, given that 21st century 7-plankers and 16tonners, and pretty much everything else, are intrinsically better scaled and detailed even before you look underneath, and Oxford’s are pretty competitively priced, I can’t understand why anyone would object to these better models on the grounds that they can’t see much of the detail underneath the wagon. It isn’t going to be any cheaper if the detail is left off, and brake rodding is pretty visible without turning the wagon over anyway. Buffer/drawbar spring detail and underfloor planking do not adversely affect the running. I am no rivet-counter, as anyone who has seen my modelling will testify, but I try my best to get things right. If I want a model of a prototype badly enough and the only one available is an old tooling that doesn’t meet current standards, I’ll buy it and use it until something better comes along. But I draw the line at serious scale distortions to accommodate incorrect generic chassis, as well as locos from the 60s without brakes and flangeless centre drivers. We’ve moved on, and I’ve moved on, and while I have no problem with ‘retro’ layouts that use older stock for it’s own sake, they’re not for me. There are limits to how far I can suspend disbelief, and until the early years of this century there were a good number of RTR models that exceeded them, and even now some ancient dogs lingering in catalogues.

No but the plane is…

In the sense that her intelligence is infinitessimal.

Agility, stamia; athleticism, and your wits kept about you. I used to assemble a train at Swansea High St. Goods, 19.35 Swansea Goods-Lawrence Hill, Hymek job, vans and wagons gravity fed from Hafod whizzing around the corner of the NCL building in failing light and GW-period yard lighting. It was, frankly, terrifying, and I was only dealing with one road; the shunters had to change points as well! Shunting is dangerous at the best of times, but add conditions like these and the ante is definitely upped. Nerves of steel we 'ad, boyo, nerves of steel, wills of iron, hearts of ice, and knobs of butter. For the sandwiches of course...

Shwt is one of the best I've seen, and captures the semi-dereliction of places at the end of their working lives in the late 60s magnificently; it'll be missed. The pile of bricks that used to be the station building is phenomenally well modelled and highly expressive of the period. I like to light my trains from the side, something not always done on show layouts where the overhead retina-burners blind you with white GW roofs. I prefer subdued cool lighting to suggest an overcast or rainy day (I model the South Wales Valleys), but even if you model high summer as many do, if your layout is set in the UK the highest the currant bun gets even at midsummer day astronomical noon even at Penzance (don't think there was much railway south of this in Britain, Helston by a couple of yards perhaps) will still cast direct sunlight on the sides of trains and buildings. This may cause problems for operators at the back of show layouts, but the answer to this was devised by yours truly at a show in the 80s, when the spots were getting in our eyes. I purchased half a dozen kiddies' clear coloured plastic visors, from the Dean Forest Rly. stand IIRC, and handed them out. After a few comments about overgrown kids with train sets, we developed the response that these visors were not kids' toys at all, but highly sophisticated designer AGDs, as worn by hardened newspaper editors. 'What's an AGD?'; it's an Anti Glare Device, so there! Some punters looked abashed and impressed, and several other exhibitors copied us... It's a seriously good idea, reduces eye strain and doesn't affect your view of the models, The Johnster commends it to you. Even on an overcast day, daylight is much stronger than even quite powerful indoor lighting, and bright sunlight obviously much more so. But we mostly use our layouts indoors under lamps designed for reading or working, stronger than the main lighting but nowhere near daylight on all but the gloomiest days (yes, even in Manchester or Blaenau Ffestiniog). Much of the endless debating on sites like this about the actual colour of certain liveries takes place without taking this into account; if we want to view our models properly we have to replicate daylight, and most people would find that very uncomfortable in a domestic environment, and unacceptable to other members of the household. I am aware that my own layout lighting, led anglepoises that deliver three levels and three tones, is nowhere near bright enough but one compromises, perhaps by painting models and laying scenery that is a bit too bright (then weathering it; this is really sensible hobby, isn't it?). It is a subject not well researched within the hobby, but I suspect the manufacturers are aware of it when applying liveries and colours. Shwt, Rob's ovine offerings, and Alastair's Middleton top are inspirational, but I doubt anyone will object if I single out two exceptionally lit layouts; Arun Quay, which gets drizzly misty dreich & drear/poor visibility over the Sussex coastal marshes spot on, and Beijao, Chinese industrial yellowed-out polluted bleakness with it's backdrop of brutalitarianist concrete buildings and bright neon signs; I've never been to northern China, but this is exactly how I imagine it, nailed it, I almost want to wipe the grit out of my eyes after one of those lorries bowls past... Both of these are probably a bit washed out for most peoples' taste. Rod Stewart's late afternoon cityscape is not to my taste, but very effective nonetheless; my problem is that this cast of lighting does not usually last for more than about half an hour. I can reproduce something like it at Cwmdimbath, but I believe Rod has deliberately chosen complimentary hues for his many buildings to enhance the effect, but I'd want the sun to go down and twilight to supercede it after about half an hour.

Taken to see Bambi, a much hyped-up treat, in 1956 when I was four. Cinema was a wonder palace, expectation building exponentially. Sat down, expectation turning into full-on excitement now. The lights went down, oh, be still my beating heart. The curtains opened; I could hardly contain myself. There were some adverts (Pearl & Dean); this was pre-ITV in Cardiff and I'd never seen anything like them before! There was an expectant hush. The film started, the culmination of everything my life had been building up to at that time. ...And, within minutes, SOME TW*T SHOT BAMBI'S MUM!!! HIS MUM, ffs!!! I had to be carried out of the Cinema screaming in distress, mentally scarred for life, I can recall the incident in horrible clarity even now 68 year later. How could anyone ever think that this slaughterfest was suitable for young children; the most terrifiying part was that you only saw the gun, not the hunter, a shadow killer; fear of the unknown is the worst fear. It was another eight years before I could be persuaded back into the cinema again, for Swiss Family Robinson, but I rapidly graduated to to Clint and the Dollars series, where corpse-counting was par for the course; death didn't worry me by that time. Mind, nobody's mum got shot...

Which is fine until the large dog wants it back...🙁

Started cutting the bogie footboards out of coffee stirrers (tx, 'spoons Tim), and will probably have them on the bogies by tomoz night. I've had a bit of wobble with the bogies, because of a post in another topic (same thread as this) with worked-up Triang clerestories on Hornby 10' Dean bogies. I'd have been a bit more certain of myself had I taken proper notice of this coach's bogies in the first place, but I have now assured myself that the Glyncorrwgs had 8'6" Dean bogies. One of them didn't have footboards, on at least one side, though. AFAICT, there were three coaches, and the 'top' and 'bottom' ones had the end compartments fitted out for the guard to ride in, though I am not aware of the train ever having been propelled in the downhill direction. Normal practice (in as far as anything about the Glyncorrwg branch can be desribed as 'normal') was for the loco to haul the train down from Glyncorrwg ecs in the usual way to Cwmmer Corrwg, run around and haul it back up to Glyncorrwg with passengers, then run around again and propel the coaches up the rest of the branch because there was no facility for running round up there. The return journey had the loco hauling the coaches from North Pit to Cwmmer Corrwg, running around and hauling them ecs back to Glycorrwg where they were stabled until next time while the loco handled the coal traffic. I can understand why nobody has made an exhibition model of this fascinating operation hidden in the mountain fastnesses; nobody would ever believe it... Photo on p.341 of Hodges/Davies shows the 'bottom' coach at Glyncorrwg on the bay headshunt with damage to the third compartment door and windows, dated 5/9/57, and on p.349 a two-coach train leaving South Pit Halt downhill on the same day; I have no idea if the 'bottom' coach was ever repaired, but the damage is fairly severe, door off it's hinges and the pillar between the door and window reveal broken; despite this, Hodges/Davies do not comment on the situation. Something rigid and solid like a crane jib has attacked the coach at about door handle level from the side; it doesn't look like converging road shunting sideswipe damage. As the numbers are indicernable beneath the filth my conversion will serve as 'top' or 'bottom' coach facing either direction for working at Cwmdimbath, as I have no qualms about propelling downhill, and the middle coach without the footboards and (TTBOMK) no cab will not be modelled. The coaches were actually rostered to Port Talbot, not Tondu. Withdrawn in 1958 replaced by a 3-coach Mainline & City set which lasted until 1962. The brake ends of these were similarly modified, but with a central droplight window let in. I'm rather hoping Dapol will produce these, but if not I'll do my own from a Dapol. Not correct for Tondu, but the Cwmdimbath line never actually existed except as a tramroad, and I feel justified in these rule 1 nods to the Glyncorrwg operation.

And schizophrenic?

One of my favourite places is Aberystwyth, a town full of friendly nutters and an individualistic attitude to things, plus anywhere with steam trains and a cliff railway can’t be all bad. The area is predominantly Welsh-speaking and the town has a marvellous approach to bilingual signage; for example, from about 20 years ago, dividing the beach into areas where dogs were or were not allowed, <Dogs/Dim Dogs>. Wenglish at it’s best, do dogs have to pass an intelligence test to use part of the beach, or are they to be divided on the basis of how well illuminated they are? ‘WE DEMAND THE TRUTH. NOW!!!’. ‘YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH!’. Another lovely bit of tranlation, pure Aber, is ‘Stryd Fawr’. Anywhere else in Wales this translates as ‘High Street’, but not here; ‘Great Darkgate Street’, a bit Dungeons & Dragons, Welsh dragons of course. ‘Stryd Porth Ddu Fawr’, perhaps? Check out Malcolm Pryce’s Aber-set pseudo-noir ‘Louie Knight’ detective books for the vibe; well written, with druid mafia, rugby club enforcers, mad scientists, gelato addiction, Red Gwenno, Patagonian war vets living rough in the dunes at Ynyslas (‘Ew wusn’t there, mun’), illegal knitting sessions in dark basements, much more realistic than the real town, or perhaps not that much; the darkness is there all right, not far below the surface… Place is weird. An’ I luvs a bit of weird, I duz.

Valid point, alastairb. I find myself much the same, at which rate a ‘Cwmdimbath Day’ takes 3 or 4 sessions, not far off a week in real time, to complete but I do not find that to be a problem. But, according to situation and my mood, there are different modes of operating, and of modelling. I can have a ‘sit down and drive the trains session as described, or a sort of operating-with clock-stopped breaks in which modelling, maintenance, tidying up, &c is done, or watching tv and making a movement or performing a modelling task while the ads are on, comvenient in a two-room flat where the layout os on the bedroom next to the loving room but Idoubt it would work with stairs, loft ladders, or garden paths intervening. It is surprising what can be achieved in ad breaks; my current project, the Glyncorrwg clerestory (see ‘A clerestory for Cwmdimbath’ in ‘modifying & detailing RTR/Modelling Skills & Knowledge), has been carried on in much this way, and, unless you are in a hurry to complete the job which is never good modelling practice anyway, it is surprising how the work, or the timetable, progresses!

Preservation beyond Leek presumably carried out under the policy of Manifold Destiny... Sorry, it's that sort of silly Saturday avo. Out on the patio with the firepit later.

An interesting concept, SM42. It sort of ties in with the Ironbridge industrial heritage stuff, and the main line connection would have presumably been at the power station, which would be a connection to the Horsehay people. Not likely to have ever happened, of course, given that the track was already gone north of Bridgnorth Tunnel and still in good condition all the way down to Kiddy when the preservationists moved in; in fact it was still in use as far as the colliery and there were still passenger services to Bewdley via Kidderminster in those days. Ironbridge gorge is attractive scenically and of course the bridge itself is a major attraction. The current SVR is a well-run and competent organisation that would be well capable of restoring the Bridgnorth-Ironbridge section, but it would not have been as capable of doing that in the early days. Under Gerald Nabarro (it has not always been best served by it's chairmen) it seems to not have been quite as well-run, and did not have the resources anyway. Incidents like the Sterns washout would have sunk it.

It does seem to have slipped back a bit, doesn't it. CNY is well over and any delays caused by Houthis in the Red Sea and disturbance to the container supply because of the extra 5 days passage round the Cape should be factored out fairly soon. Predicting the arrival of the N is a bit of a lottery, though, as we do not know what stage of production they have reached; assembly and packing would suggest sooner rather than later, but the sea voyage is 6 weeks via the Cape, the ship may call at other ports before it comes to it's UK berth, which could be another week or so, and they then have to be sorted and distributed in the UK. And we don't even know if the project has reached the assembly plant in China yet! I'm keen to see this coach in my sweaty little paws, but as the 94xx saga taught me, there is little point in worrying about it. It'll get here when it gets here, and when it gets here it'll be here, the philosophical approach, interspersed by occasional howling at the moon in blind rage and scream therapy, seems to work for me... The delay has at least allowed me to defer my 'work up a Keyser A31 to represent an approximate A10 to run with the N as happened at Tondu 1953-7' project and concentrate on cut'n'shutting a couple of old Triang clerestories to make a Glyncorrwg miners' coach, a project well in hand that will probably be complete by the time we have news of the N and I will need to start on the A31/A10 conversion.