Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[jim.snowdon]

7 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

It would - but pantographs are designed around running in 'clean' air - not the slipstream of another and I would suggest that the effects on current collection / de-wirement potential / wear factors would still be significant .

 

Designing a pantograph to work well in all situations - is akin to designing a F1 car which is equally at home leading the pack as well as crawling all over the rear end of another one. Unfortunately the laws of aerodynamics and physics prevent this....

Any pantograph, by the simple virtue of being put on top of a train and having to cope with the vagaries of the weather is running in anything but "clean" air flows. They exist only in wind tunnels.

 

Jim

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Which all makes me wonder on earth we go on with the combinations of 2- and 4-car units on the Clacton services, or the 3x325 sets which bat up and down the WCML at speeds in the 70s creating more wire disturbance than anything else. Or, for that matter, 2x86s in any one of three combinations. I'm not convinced, although if anyone can produce a clearly explained argument for why these combinations cannot be operated, I'll give them a hearing.

 

Jim

 

Much depends on:-

 

(i) The specific design of the OLE - i.e. how rigid, how well supported, etc it is

 

(ii) The design of the pantograph and how 'friendly' it is to the OLE

 

(iii) The speed of the traction units involved.

 

It should also be noted that generally its usually possible for engineers to come up with solutions to problems - Whether the accountants or political masters decree it to e 'good value for money' is a rather different question, but one that has the potential to prevent said solutions actually being progressed.

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

15 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Any pantograph, by the simple virtue of being put on top of a train and having to cope with the vagaries of the weather is running in anything but "clean" air flows. They exist only in wind tunnels.

 

Jim

 

Well you had better let F1 or the aircraft industry know then!

 

A F1 car in lead position driving round the circuit with strong cross winds will still be travelling in 'clean air' - as will the first military jet taking off from an airstrip. In both cases those following the lead vehicle closely will always be affected regardless of what mother nature may do.

 

We cannot control the weather - but we CAN control the design of objects.

 

Thus the term 'clean air' is well recognised to mean air that has not been affected by man made things before reaching the object being discussed. 

 

 

 

 

The point is that

Edited November 7, 2019 by phil-b259

[Mike Storey]

On 06/11/2019 at 13:40, KeithMacdonald said:

It seems that some crucial TFL projects are being delayed by an unlikely reason - interference from HMRC. They are trying to enforce the IR35 tax rules on contractors who run their own businesses. I'm told it especially applies to IT contractors, and some have quit because of it. But as all the projects involve IT for signalling and communications, it has a knock-on effect.

 

https://www.contractoruk.com/news/0013219tfl_blames_ir35_changes_project_delay.html

 

IR35 was a problem already concentrating minds in 2011. The divergence of NR into self-contained routes may well resolve the issue on national rail, as the contractor can show work for different clients over three financial years (albeit proof is required of same over one FY, but that was not seen as enforceable, due to the existence of "call-off" contracts). TfL need to think about this, or it will result in transfer of contractors to other fields, or to NR. They need more imagination than was originally shown when IR35 (modified) came into being.

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

Which all makes me wonder on earth we go on with the combinations of 2- and 4-car units on the Clacton services...

 

Re the 309 units, from the images on the web it seems that all units had the pantograph at one end of the unit above a driving cab.

 

Thus while it might take a careful bit of unit marshalling,  coupling a 2 car unit to the end if a 4 car unit would only be a problem if both the cabs with pantographs ended up next to each other.  When marshalled in any other combination you would get at least 80m between pantographs

 

However having the pantograph at the end of the unit does then make things tricky with coupling together two 4 car units - if they are not the same way round you can get back to back pantographs in the middle of the formation.

 

Of course it might be that the GEML OLE was fine with two pantographs up in close proximity - but that doesn't man its true of everywhere in the country.

[TomJ]

This is quite some thread drift. Now discussing the theoretical actions of the pantograph of trains that only exist in the imagination 

[Paul.Uni]

On 05/11/2019 at 12:43, Paul.Uni said:

Changes to TfL buses due to the Elizabeth Line https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/buses/elizabeth-line/user_uploads/west-london-elizabeth-line-bus-changes-response-to-issues-raised.pdf

 

I'm not sure when exactly these changes will happen but I believe that the changes to the 140 & 427 routes, plus new services 278, N140 & X140 will start in December to coincide with TfL Rail taking over the Reading services

The changes to the 140 and new services 278, X140 & N140 start on Saturday 7th December

 

[KeithMacdonald]

11 minutes ago, TomJ said:

This is quite some thread drift. Now discussing the theoretical actions of the pantograph of trains that only exist in the imagination 

 

I'm glad you've said that - it had crossed my mind too, but I wasn't brave enough to mention it.

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Suzie]

2-car 309621-627 had a pantograph over the cab on the power car, but the 4-car units 309601-608 and 309611-618 (griddle) had the pantograph on a centre power car. They originally tended to run as 10-car units with a 4-car griddle unit in the middle. There was not much scope for units to get turned so I guess the pans would not get closer than about two and a half cars apart in practice. The 2-car units did get extended to 4-car later but retained the pantograph over the cab. These units were main line express and ran at up to 100mph in multiple on Great Eastern, and later on West Coast.

[Fenman]

News reports that the slim chance Crossrail will open in 2020 has now been quashed, and it won't open until sometime in 2021. With new cost over-runs added on top.

 

Blimey.

 

Paul

[Dunsignalling]

The wording in the bulletin I heard was that "(Crossrail) will now not open before 2021".

 

That implies (unless I am taking the report too literally) that it is not certain to open during 2021. 

 

John

[KeithMacdonald]

4 minutes ago, Dunsignalling said:

The wording in the bulletin I heard was that "(Crossrail) will now not open before 2021".

 

That implies (unless I am taking the report too literally) that it is not certain to open during 2021. 

 

John

 

Perhaps you are not taking it literally enough. Do you have an unusual understanding of what "before" means?

For example: "The years before 2021 are : 2020, 2019, 2018..."

Edited November 8, 2019 by KeithMacdonald

[Zomboid]

Will it ever open?

[Dunsignalling]

29 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Perhaps you are not taking it literally enough. Do you have an unusual understanding of what "before" means?

For example: "The years before 2021 are : 2020, 2019, 2018..."

I think I understand what before means.  So, having not opened in 2019, Crossrail is now not going to open in 2020, Hence, not before 2021.

 

Thus, whilst it might open at some point in 2021, it could be delayed further. It's starting to look as if HMG might want to engineer the cancellation of HS2 so as to divert even more money down the moneypit that Crossrail is beginning to resemble......

 

John

Edited November 8, 2019 by Dunsignalling

[The Stationmaster]

17 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

From observation, the trailing pantograph, even when it is ten cars back, is running in the wake of the first and the contact wire does not stabilise until well after the train is out of sight. Conversely, if the two inner Pantographs on a 2x5-car 8xx train were used, the second one would be effectively running in the slipstream of the first, rather than in the more disturbed wake further back. 

 

Jim

That was a problem with 18 vehicle Class 373s on lines like the ECML with headspan overhead.  Given that sort of overhead is not exactly 'stiiff' vertical movement of the contact wire up to 6inches above and below datum when a 373  passed at 125mph during testing is a short route to dewirement.  Henc e restriction of Class 373 speeds on the ECML and the need to modify the UK pans to cope with what you note in another post as 'dirty air'.

[Dunsignalling]

18 minutes ago, Zomboid said:

Will it ever open?

It would make a brilliant cycleway.

[The Stationmaster]

From the Crossrail horse's mouth, dated 08 November 2019 (by which I do not imply it will be using horse drawn trains and I thought I'd better add the year of publication just in case) -

 

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/construction/our-plan-to-complete-the-elizabeth-line/

 

Note that, to settle the argument above about 'not before' etc, it states that ' The Elizabeth Line will open as soon as practically possible in 2021'

 

It would seem that NR's comments a few months back about Paddington not being as advanced as previously implied by. Crossrail were correct.

Edited November 8, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[woodenhead]

1 hour ago, Zomboid said:

Will it ever open?

It would take a brave politician to cancel it now.

 

Of course though you can cancel other projects......

 

I wonder if HS2 will be the sacrificial cow to the cost overrun plus the funding for Cross Rail 2 that BoJo was a proposer of.

 

No point building a line beyond Watford, they don't vote for us, neither do those liberals in the southwest.

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

That was a problem with 18 vehicle Class 373s on lines like the ECML with headspan overhead.  Given that sort of overhead is not exactly 'stiiff' vertical movement of the contact wire up to 6inches above and below datum when a 373  passed at 125mph during testing is a short route to dewirement.  Henc e restriction of Class 373 speeds on the ECML and the need to modify the UK pans to cope with what you note in another post as 'dirty air'.

That illustrates the problem with high speeds and headspans, and why they are generally not liked for such applications. The problem is the lack of mechanical independence between adjoining lines, so when two opposing trains pass, one runs into the wire disturbance of the other at a closing speed considerably higher than normal. Both trains' pantographs have to cope with some very short pitch variations in wire height, demanding consequently high accelerations of the pantograph head. It is not the same as one pantograph following another in the same direction.

 

Jim

[royaloak]

5 hours ago, Fenman said:

News reports that the slim chance Crossrail will open in 2020 has now been quashed, and it won't open until sometime in 2021. With new cost over-runs added on top.

 

Blimey.

 

Paul

I wonder what their wage bill will be for all the drivers sat around doing nothing except the occasional ECS move to keep their competency in date and the trains from seizing up?

[lmsforever]

Could the trains be used elsewhere until this line actually opened at least then revenue would be earned plus some rolling stock shortages will be helped.I wait for further delays on this project maybe it is overengineered?

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, royaloak said:

I wonder what their wage bill will be for all the drivers sat around doing nothing except the occasional ECS move to keep their competency in date and the trains from seizing up?

I think that is part of the reason why they want to start running to Reading in December - they have both sets and drivers sitting around in various places (sets in store at Worksop as well apparently) eating up money for no return.  I'm not at all sure how much they'll make out of actually running but it will at least defray some of their standing costs albeit while incurring additional costs for electricity and mileage related maintenance cost.  

 

They seem currently to be running a very limited number of daily trips to Reading but judging by the number of people I saw getting out of a 345 cab at Reading a few weeks back they are no doubt doing some route learning on their own trains.  From what I've seen at Twyford they don't yet appear to be making any stops at intermediate stations so they've got a bit of learning to do in that respect and only a few weeks left in which to do it (maybe related to commissioning of cameras etc at stations although visually the Twyford installation is now complete?

[royaloak]

14 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

They seem currently to be running a very limited number of daily trips to Reading but judging by the number of people I saw getting out of a 345 cab at Reading a few weeks back they are no doubt doing some route learning on their own trains. 

I think they were playing the 'get as close as you can to the station and then throw the brake in when you get to the last point you think the train will stop in the platform' game when I saw one yesterday, oh it stopped short. Its a good game but not recommended when in passenger service.

 

Any revenue they can generate will offset some of the huge costs they are currently incurring.

[The Stationmaster]

9 minutes ago, royaloak said:

I think they were playing the 'get as close as you can to the station and then throw the brake in when you get to the last point you think the train will stop in the platform' game when I saw one yesterday, oh it stopped short. Its a good game but not recommended when in passenger service.

 

 

Oh dear - not exactly the way to do it, especially when they try to stop at some of the stations which still have short platforms.  Maybe they are trying a new way of sorting out their braking marks - on the basis of if at first you don't succeed have another go    I saw one in Platform 15 at Reading yesterday which had presumably come from the sidings and it was - how shall I put it - rather close to the signal at the east end waiting the road. (if it had been trying to clear the B end of the platform it had very definitely succeeded judging by where the rear end was standing.). However they definitely appear to get it right running into Reading from the east.

[royaloak]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

Oh dear - not exactly the way to do it, 

Its more a question of showing the drivers exactly how good the brakes are, invariably everyone stops short because they dont expect the train to stop so quickly, we did the same with the IETs, obviously when running ECS, doing it in passenger service would be um rather silly.