Elizabeth Line / Crossrail Updates.

[The Stationmaster]

6 hours ago, mdvle said:

London Reconnections has an update on the state of Crossrail based on the 23rd October meeting of the Programmes & Investment Committee

 

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2019/crossrail-progressing-but-slipping/

Interesting but some ideas about revenue which are rather at odds with both what GWR has said will be happening in respect of revenue (using ORCATS for revenue split - but of course that might have changed but there would still be a need for revenue splitting) and the actuality of the situation where revenue for a quoted journey to Windsor would inevitably have to be split because GWR operates the branch.  Similarly his comments about GWR train services are wide of the mark compared with the fact that they are very purposely continuing a two trains per hour off peak service 'for as long as they have the franchise' in order to both cater for intermediate custom and provide connections out of (and into) the Thames Valley branches towards London.   And of course as far as the intermediate stations are concerned taht will inevitably mean a revenue split with Crossrail.

 

It is of course difficult to judge rosters without seeing them so I haven't got a clue about the veracity of that comment and in any case they will obviously have to be diagram led plus being subject to GWR staff's conditions of employment and whatever rostering implications they hold.  From what can be seen it is clear that the 387 diagrams are currently having very much to respond to the peak situation and this involves not only some empty mileage but also some very frequent train services at certain times of day - for example there are 4 Class 2 trains (one is limited stop) leaving Reading for Paddington between16.05 and 16.48 plus an ECS only a few minutes behind the last one and there will only be, over a slightly longer, two (plus 2 x XR trains) from December and no ECS.  But overall it seems that many GWR 397 diagrams are putting in some commendable daily mileage so utilisation can't be too bad.  As far as Driver diagrams are concerned I haven't got a clue but they will obviously be led to some extent by teh set working and therefore suffering the same peak impacts

 

And as for the idea of people changing to Crossrail at Reading eastbound I reckon that if anybody does do it they won't do it twice, and they definitely won't do it the opposite way round.  Quite how it would benefit Crossrail's revenue in any case puzzles me as I doubt GWR will be feeding what amounts to 'intercity' revenue into a local services ORCATS split.  AFAIK it doesn't happen at the moment so it's hardly likely to happen in the future and I got the strong impression from what has been said by them to users' groups  that GWR have been taking a tough (?self-preservation) attitude regarding revenue outside the London boundary coupled with their refusal to allow Oyster card travel beyond West Drayton.

[billbedford]

 

 

 

1

12 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

...GWR have been taking a tough (?self-preservation) attitude regarding revenue outside the London boundary coupled with their refusal to allow Oyster card travel beyond West Drayton

 

GWR refused to allow Oyster cards? Really?

 

Here's a thread from another forum that suggests a completely different, and to my mind more logical, scenario.

 

[caradoc]

Travelling up to town occasionally from Oxford I definitely will not be changing at Reading onto Crossrail. Given that some of the Oxford fast trains call at Slough, that is a possibility, although Ealing Broadway would be a lot better, however I doubt either that GWR has the desire, or the GWML the capacity, to have trains on the Main lines stopping there. So most likely it will still be Paddington, and depending where I am travelling on towards, Crossrail or the Bakerloo Line. At least no more contending with the abysmal Circle etc Line ! (When I first started travelling regularly between Paddington and Liverpool St in 1978 the service was poor, more than 40 years later it is if anything worse).

[Ron Ron Ron]

The Oxford fasts might stop at OOC when that gets built.

Changing platform onto Crossrail there will probably be much quicker than at Paddington and connecting from Crossrail onto other Underground lines could result in quicker total journey times, than taking the slow, multi stop Circle and District lines from Paddington.

[The Stationmaster]

Bill Bedford posted -

 

 

There is a thread elsewhere which has already said that Oyster Cards will not be valid beyond west Drayton towards Slough & Reading and I have been quoting what senior GWR staff have been saying to local rail users group meetings - that they have been unable to reach any sort of agreement with TfL regarding the use of Oyster Cards beyond West Drayton and they will not be permitted.  instead revenue will be divided using ORCATS for that purpose.  Alas your link appears to be dead for some reason.

 

And here are. Crossrail's own words on the subject - confirming that Oyster Card coverage will not extend beyond West Drayton -

 

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/tfl-rail-to-operate-services-to-reading-from-15-december

 

To be honest I cannot see how using an Oyster Card beyond West Drayton would work as there would then be nothing, except on-train examination to prevent an Oyster Card user getting on any train between say, Reading. and London ortindeed using it from the London area onto any of the Thames Valley branches where even tho' they can't tap out the cap on the Oyster fare would be lower than the fare they should have paid.

Edited October 30, 2019 by The Stationmaster

[woodenhead]

The issue is Oyster and the fact it has run out of zones because of the way it was designed, I don't think they every expected it to become what it has.

 

There are stations on the ECML that use services that could be covered by Oyster but fall outside of the current zoning so now use Contactless.

 

It is the same with the GWML - so they are using contactless instead to tap and go - so it is the same as Oyster in that respect but different as it isn't Oyster.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if Oyster may shortly be abandoned now that technology on contactless debit and credit cards has reached saturation.

[Ron Ron Ron]

3 hours ago, woodenhead said:

...It wouldn't surprise me if Oyster may shortly be abandoned now that technology on contactless debit and credit cards has reached saturation.

I’ve seen it suggested elsewhere (probably on some London forum, or some such) that Oyster may eventually be abandoned in favour of regular touch and go contactless.

[chrisf]

The Crossrail news release states that trains between Reading and Paddington will not serve Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.  It is not clear how these stations will be served after 15th December.  I'm guessing that what used to be Heathrow Connect will fulfil that function.  I raise this purely for the sentimental reason that most of my early spotting was done at Acton.

 

Chris

[jim.snowdon]

2 hours ago, chrisf said:

The Crossrail news release states that trains between Reading and Paddington will not serve Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.  It is not clear how these stations will be served after 15th December.  I'm guessing that what used to be Heathrow Connect will fulfil that function.  I raise this purely for the sentimental reason that most of my early spotting was done at Acton.

 

Chris

They get served by the Heathrow branch Crossrail services, as at present. As far as I understand it, Heathrow Connect as a brand name has already disappeared, the class 360 units having been rebranded as TfL Rail some time ago.

 

Jim

[RJS1977]

Trains between Reading and Paddington haven't called at those stations in at least the 20+ years I've lived in Reading.

[St. Simon]

22 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Trains between Reading and Paddington haven't called at those stations in at least the 20+ years I've lived in Reading.

 

Early morning stoppers (and presumably later night stoppers) as well as some on weekends stop at Acton Mainline.

 

Simon

[Paul.Uni]

4 hours ago, chrisf said:

The Crossrail news release states that trains between Reading and Paddington will not serve Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.  It is not clear how these stations will be served after 15th December.  I'm guessing that what used to be Heathrow Connect will fulfil that function.  I raise this purely for the sentimental reason that most of my early spotting was done at Acton.

 

Chris

TfL Rail Paddington - Heathrow/Reading timetable http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-rail-paddington-heathrow-reading-timetable-15-dec-2019-to-16-may-2020.pdf.pdf

Edited October 30, 2019 by Paul.Uni

[The Stationmaster]

13 hours ago, Paul.Uni said:

TfL Rail Paddington - Heathrow/Reading timetable http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-rail-paddington-heathrow-reading-timetable-15-dec-2019-to-16-may-2020.pdf.pdf

They really ought to have made it clear that the service shown will not apply between 24 and 31 December when a special timetable will be in operation and there will be no TfL trains on various sections of the route between Paddington and Reading with amended services on other sections.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 minute ago, The Stationmaster said:

They really ought to have made it clear that the service shown will not apply between 24 and 31 December when a special timetable will be in operation and there will be no TfL trains on various sections of the route between Paddington and Reading with amended services on other sections.

 

That sounds like valid feedback - I hope you've told them?

[The Stationmaster]

53 minutes ago, KeithMacdonald said:

 

That sounds like valid feedback - I hope you've told them?

I have in fact tried to use their website to comment on the above timetable - but, for whatever reason, it won't accept any comments without an Oyster Card number (and remember Oyster Cards are not valid beyond West Drayton on these trains.  So I went to Transport Focus/The rail Ombudsman whose online form rejects any mention of TfL and 'phone contact with a very helpful lady there got me no further.

 

So from December we are in the peculiar position of having an operator to whom you can't pass comments or complain running trains in an area where until now Transport Focus/The Rail Ombudsman are the appropriate people to go to if the operator cannot resolve a problem raised with them.  In other words Crossrail outside the Oyster Card area effectively has no means of comment or complaint nor is there any independent oversight in the event of unresolved complaints.  That might well suit TfL but it is not exactly a bold step forward in relations with passengers!

[KeithMacdonald]

4 minutes ago, The Stationmaster said:

 That might well suit TfL but it is not exactly a bold step forward in relations with passengers!

 

Perhaps Hanlon’s Razor applies?

 

Quote

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

 

Like, when defining the business ownership and system boundaries - "oh, we didn't think of that!" - and customer feedback is often an afterthought instead of a foresightful requirement up front.

 

[The Stationmaster]

On 31/10/2019 at 12:32, KeithMacdonald said:

 

Perhaps Hanlon’s Razor applies?

 

 

Like, when defining the business ownership and system boundaries - "oh, we didn't think of that!" - and customer feedback is often an afterthought instead of a foresightful requirement up front.

 

It certainly came as news to the lady I spoke to at the Rail Ombudsman's office.  Not surprisingly she had no idea that TfL were taking over services from GWR and said she would be advising her management of what appeared to be an anomaly in the future. 

[Pacific231G]

On 30/10/2019 at 19:29, jim.snowdon said:

They get served by the Heathrow branch Crossrail services, as at present. As far as I understand it, Heathrow Connect as a brand name has already disappeared, the class 360 units having been rebranded as TfL Rail some time ago.

 

Jim

This has already made a complete nonsense of the Greenford Branch which has a half hourly service that used torun to Paddington but now terminates at W. Ealing. If the train serving W.Ealing from Paddington is a few minutes late then you're faced with an almost half-hour wait to get to any station on the branch (or a rapid study of the E bus routes in the area). In the opposite direction it's slightly better but there's usually a 10-15 minute wait at W. Ealing for the Ealing Broadway and Paddington train. I used to find the branch quite useful but now never try to use it to get to S, Greenford and only ocassionally to get from there. I don't know if the same is likely to happen on the other Thames Valley branches but I don't expect the Greenford branch to even exist as a passenger line by 2030.

[jim.snowdon]

10 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

This has already made a complete nonsense of the Greenford Branch which has a half hourly service that used torun to Paddington but now terminates at W. Ealing.

Traditionally, the Greenford service used to terminate at Ealing Broadway, an arrangement that I believe went way back into GWR days. It only started running to Paddington as a consequence of the reversing siding at Ealing being removed. Now, it has been cut back to West Ealing simply to free up paths for Crossrail. As a wholly self contained service with the line almost entirely to itself, it should not have been too difficult to coordinate it with the Heathrow Connect/Crossrail services. Better still would be for the line to be electrified and operated as part of what are now becoming TfL's services.

 

Jim

[RJS1977]

Although I don't think it would be too difficult to squeeze in an extra line or two to the north of the relief lines to enable either Central or District Line trains to continue up the Greenford Branch.

 

[Pacific231G]

27 minutes ago, jim.snowdon said:

Traditionally, the Greenford service used to terminate at Ealing Broadway, an arrangement that I believe went way back into GWR days. It only started running to Paddington as a consequence of the reversing siding at Ealing being removed. Now, it has been cut back to West Ealing simply to free up paths for Crossrail. As a wholly self contained service with the line almost entirely to itself, it should not have been too difficult to coordinate it with the Heathrow Connect/Crossrail services. Better still would be for the line to be electrified and operated as part of what are now becoming TfL's services.

 

Jim

Hi Jim

I can actually remember the bubble car at Ealing Broadway (though I had no reason to use the Greenford Branch then).

I know why the Greenford branch was truncated but suspect that this was done on a schedule based on the original opening date for Crossrail not on its much delayed opening after which I assume there will be more trains on the GWML. As it stands, the lack of connection is frustrating and, given the snail's pace of W. Ealing's redevelopment,  the advertised connection time from the down main platform to the Greenford platform requires a sprint, even more so if you don't know to travel near the tail of the train from Paddington.

 

The branch train doesn't have the line almost entirely to itself (though at one time it did) Even without the ECS workings that ended when the connection at Old Oak Common was severed, passenger services still only make up about three quarters  of the line's paths  with the remainder being about eighteen goods or LE workings that, if held up by the branch train waiting at W. Ealing to make a connection, could presumably have a knock-on effect on the Chiltern Line . I'm afraid I can't see the branch ever justifying the investment required for electrification as freight is handled by DB and GBRF 66000s  and passenger train loadings are small throughout most of the day.   

[RJS1977]

There's also the daily Chiltern service from High Wycombe to West Ealing.

[Zomboid]

The Greenford branch would do well by being taken over by TfL, and appearing on the Overground maps.

 

Isn't West Ealing going to see a more frequent service once crossrail starts operating properly anyway? The interchange at Greenford with the central line ought to be pretty good already.

[jim.snowdon]

9 hours ago, Pacific231G said:

Hi Jim

I can actually remember the bubble car at Ealing Broadway (though I had no reason to use the Greenford Branch then).

I know why the Greenford branch was truncated but suspect that this was done on a schedule based on the original opening date for Crossrail not on its much delayed opening after which I assume there will be more trains on the GWML. As it stands, the lack of connection is frustrating and, given the snail's pace of W. Ealing's redevelopment,  the advertised connection time from the down main platform to the Greenford platform requires a sprint, even more so if you don't know to travel near the tail of the train from Paddington.

 

The branch train doesn't have the line almost entirely to itself (though at one time it did) Even without the ECS workings that ended when the connection at Old Oak Common was severed, passenger services still only make up about three quarters  of the line's paths  with the remainder being about eighteen goods or LE workings that, if held up by the branch train waiting at W. Ealing to make a connection, could presumably have a knock-on effect on the Chiltern Line . I'm afraid I can't see the branch ever justifying the investment required for electrification as freight is handled by DB and GBRF 66000s  and passenger train loadings are small throughout most of the day.   

Once the branch train is platformed at either Greenford or West Ealing, it is shut in behind signals, so holding it to make connections should have no effect on any workings between the GW and Chiltern lines. 

As regards electrification, on its own, you are right, it would never make a business case. But, in an enlightened world, as applied in Europe when the railways decided to electrify their networks, and quite possibly even in BR days, it would simply have been wired as part of the network, not treated in isolation. The problem is that in the UK, where there isn't proper joined up thinking about transport strategy, it will be destined to remain an isolated oddity. Ditto. the other three remaining Thames Valley branches.

 

Jim

[Zomboid]

They managed to electrify the Paisley Canal line. A similar approach on a bunch of other routes would probably make them viable.

(There are electrification substations at the junctions for all the GWML branches - West Ealing, Slough, Maidenhead and Twyford, which won't hurt. Some even have the necessary switchgear already installed for the branches)