pre BR first generation DMU railcar development (not steam)

[keefer]

a list of AW stuff at derbysulzers.com: http://www.derbysulzers.com/awglobal.html (contains the aforementioned 'powerhouses' and railcars)

 

and more specifically, their UK stuff: http://www.derbysulzers.com/aw.html (mainly shunters and D/E railcars, along with their 1-Co-1 loco, which they say was the  UK's first mainline diesel loco)

 

If anyone's interested, I have scanned some pages from an old (1937 I think) book called 'Locomotives'. Can't remember the author (and I'm not sure if I even still have it), but it is a big, heavy red bound book and it is Volume 2.

The pages I scanned are (and referenced to the first page linked to above):

 The 1-Co-1 'Universal' loco (order DT8, 1933) 

Sao Paulo 450hp D/E train (order DT19, 1934)

95 or 140hp D/E streamlined railbus (must be order DT16, 1933, but book mentions 'A.B.E(patented) electrical transmission')

[Echo]

Right......

 

I excavated the CDR book from the cave, and that reminded me of the important missing-link between the CDR and Walkers: the ex-CVR steam, converted to diesel using a Gardener engine, loco called "Phoenix".

 

So, a Walkers salesman did come to Ireland, but he flogged the CVR a steam loco, thereby setting in train the events that led to the articulated railcars.

 

Full story from the pen of Ted Wade, here http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/Road/atkinsonsteam.html

 

And, the C&VBT shed railcar definitely had a 20hp Fordson (i.e. Tractor) engine - marked clearly as such on the company drawing.

 

Kevin

 

(Will get to the Armstrong Whitworth stuff tomorrow!)

The Atkinson Walker steam loco was recommended by Robert Killin, an outside consultant and an employee of the LMS. Reading Patterson's book on the CVR one wonders if he didn't just read a trade advert or pick up a flyer on these locos, rather than go into the idea in any depth or speak to a salesman.

 

The AW railcar was a tendered order. Tenders were invited from several other firms too.

[Nearholmer]

How about this for imitation being the sincerest form of flattery?

 

Belgian Railways class 608 of 1939, more information and a photo of the preserved one here http://traintamarre.tassignon.be/inventaire_H0/com.php?categorie=AR&type=Type%20608

 

Kevin

 

PS: it reminds me of a cartoon character, but if can't quite put my finger on which one. Is it Minnie Mouse, or another one? It ought to be Snowy, being Belgian ......

[runs as required]

Great Find!

Tintin?

J'accuse M Hercule Poirot in the lounge with Miss Marple at St Mary Mead - avec the lead piping.

The clue is in les "moustaches jaunes" .

....and where it says

"avait un carénage inspiré des autorails anglais du Great Western Railway" this translates in Google as "fairing"

 

Poor Belgians they didn't have much time to enjoy it before September 1939.

dh

[adanapress]

Was'nt there something rather odd built for the Southern Railway's    Brighton/High Dyke Branch???  I've seen a photo somewhere ...

[Nearholmer]

Well, there was a Sentinel steam car that looked rather like a torpedo made from old bean tins and pop-rivets. But we wouldn't be allowed to talk about that in this thread. IIRC it was pensioned-off to the Westerham Branch, then sold to a reservoir construction contractor, but I might have got that wrong.

 

The little Daimler four-wheel railcars were tried on the branch, but got giddy due to the climb, and were sent to Kemp Town as a punishment, then passed on to the electrical department to use as OHLE maintenance trucks, IIRC.

 

K

[russ p]

Don't ask me why but that Belgian railcar reminds me of Richard Nixon!

[runs as required]

OK, I remembered flicking past this Southern railcar sometime ago and it was a Drewry (factory at Herne Hill).

Drwery No 5 http://www.wcpr.org.uk/Railcars.html

It is a nice story with an Irish link to it told here  http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/rolling-stock/stephens-other-railmotors  under Large Drewry 

REL Maunsell, (Inchicore trained) was good friends with Colonel Stephens link here http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/rolling-stock/stephens-other-railmotors

In 1927 the Southern Railway purchased a 50 hp petrol railcar from Drewry to test its operating cost and reliability on lightly used branch lines. It was tested between Andover and Romsey and on other branch lines in Southern England but found to be too small for most purposes despite being re-engined.

It was not very robust and got demoted onto Romney Marsh (Appledore - New Romney- Dungeness).

It was sold to the Weston, Clevedon and Portishead Railway in 1934 who retained its SR No. 5 and olive green livery. It was broken up at Swindon in 1940 when that railway was sold to the Great Western; its body ended up as a sports pavilion at a girls school..

Betjeman always enjoyed retailing the joke that if you'd stayed too long in the pub and missed the GWR train to Weston, you could always go to the WC&P.

 

There's a picture of Drewry No.5 as a nicely painted Falcon Brass Kit on our own RMweb here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/1563-large-drewry-railcar/

 

dh

[PhilJ W]

Baguley was a prolific builder of railcars having built several hundred over a period of fifty years or so. Many were built for the British armed forces during the 20's and 30's with a variety of body styles ranging from a garden shed on wheels to a rather stylish body for the Royal Navy that resembled a contemporary road motor coach. Many of these lasted into the 1960's and maybe even beyond but few if any seem to have been preserved. Those that did last a long time were fitted with diesel engines to begin with or re-engined later in life.

[Etched Pixels]

It's certainly pre-grouping. The GWR trialled a four wheel BTH petrol electric in 1911 that looks all too like a short pacer, while the Great Central trialled a bogie unit. The LB&SCR also trialled a petrol-mechanical railmotor (1905) which was later used as an engineering vehicle. I believe the GNR Dick Kerr ones were 1903 ?

 

Outside of the UK it goes back to the late 1890's maybe before.

 

Period coverage of the GWR railmotor is at:

 

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/29th-february-1912/13/a-new-gwr-petrol-electric-railcar#

 

which in some ways was more technologically advanced than the later diesel mechanical units.

 

Another early BR unit people always forget was the prototype for the 1st generation BR units that was built out of some converted LMS coaching stock. It's on my (overlong) list of models that would be a fun conversion project.

 

http://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/Miscellaneous/railcars/

 

has photos of the LBSCR ones (and some other fun ones like the KESR unit)

[Nearholmer]

The GNR and LBSCR cars, and their continental ancestors, have been discussed here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104321-umber-is-the-new-black/ (a great deal else has been discussed in this thread too, so you need to persist to find them!).

 

Here is the chassis etc from a GNR one, with no clothes on.

 

K

 

PS: actually, I don't think that really can be described as the chassis, or "truck" as the American caption calls it. It is really the engine, transmission and wheel-sets, dropped-out from the vehicle frame, which was a good, chunky, plate job, supporting the vehicle body and the axle-boxes. I think the long, dark bars connecting the axles together in this illustration were probably a cradle that was removed once the axles were fitted to their boxes and the frame.

[lmsforever]

What about the Ford t units used on the Colnel Stephenss lines.?

[John M]

OK, I remembered flicking past this Southern railcar sometime ago and it was a Drewry (factory at Herne Hill).

drewry no5.jpg

Drwery No 5 http://www.wcpr.org.uk/Railcars.html

It is a nice story with an Irish link to it told here  http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/rolling-stock/stephens-other-railmotors  under Large Drewry 

REL Maunsell, (Inchicore trained) was good friends with Colonel Stephens link here http://www.hfstephens-museum.org.uk/rolling-stock/stephens-other-railmotors

In 1927 the Southern Railway purchased a 50 hp petrol railcar from Drewry to test its operating cost and reliability on lightly used branch lines. It was tested between Andover and Romsey and on other branch lines in Southern England but found to be too small for most purposes despite being re-engined.

It was not very robust and got demoted onto Romney Marsh (Appledore - New Romney- Dungeness).

It was sold to the Weston, Clevedon and Portishead Railway in 1934 who retained its SR No. 5 and olive green livery. It was broken up at Swindon in 1940 when that railway was sold to the Great Western; its body ended up as a sports pavilion at a girls school..

Betjeman always enjoyed retailing the joke that if you'd stayed too long in the pub and missed the GWR train to Weston, you could always go to the WC&P.

 

There's a picture of Drewry No.5 as a nicely painted Falcon Brass Kit on our own RMweb here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/gallery/image/1563-large-drewry-railcar/

 

dh

 

Drewry supplied passenger & inspection railcars to the Great Southern Railways during the 1920s its possible Maunsell may have recommended Drewry as there seems to have been good relations between Inchacore and Eastleigh with Maunsell and Holcroft advising on the re-building of the 400 Class 4-6-0s into 2 cylinder locomotives.

 

The passenger railcars 2 broad and 2 narrow gauge were similar in appearance to the small WCPR unit do not appear to have been successful, the inspection cars lasted in service in to the 1970s.

 

One of the broad gauge cars was given a streamlined front end and converted into the prototype for the Drumm battery train http://industrialheritageireland.info/TikiWiki/tiki-index.php?page=The+Story+of+the+Drumm+Battery+Train.

 

The Dublin and Blessington Tramway was a pioneer in internal combustion traction including a pair of petrol-electric tramcars in 1915, introducing Model T based railcars and finally a large 1-B-1 Drewry car in the 1920s. The large Drewry car passed to the County Donegal following the closure of the Blessington line in 1932, was converted to a railcar trailer and is preserved at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum at Cultra.

[Nearholmer]

JM

 

Can you say more about the D&B petrol-electric tramcars?

 

There were a very few such in the UK, with the drives supplied by Tilling-Stevens of petrol-electric bus fame, so it would be interesting to know if the Dublin ones were from the same supplier.

 

Kevin

[runs as required]

The GNR and LBSCR cars, and their continental ancestors, have been discussed here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/104321-umber-is-the-new-black/ (a great deal else has been discussed in this thread too, so you need to persist to find them!).

 

Here is the chassis etc from a GNR one, with no clothes on.

K

PS: actually, I don't think that really can be described as the chassis, or "truck" as the American caption calls it. It is really the engine, transmission and wheel-sets, dropped-out from the vehicle frame, which was a good, chunky, plate job, supporting the vehicle body and the axle-boxes. I think the long, dark bars connecting the axles together in this illustration were probably a cradle that was removed once the axles were fitted to their boxes and the frame.

Finding this railcar stuff through that lengthy thread of Brighton love-in miscellanea certainly took me a midnight hour or two.

But it is really interesting when you get there

so here is a short cut to page 8  - commencing with post # 183 by Kevin Nearholmer - to post #198

It includes contributions from Nick Holliday posts #189 about the GNR 1903 twin engined Daimler (pictured above) that Bulleid tested on the Hertford branch and post #197 with interesting pics of Brighton railcars.

Bulleid seems a bit of a wuss - I reckon strapped to the back of that GNR ferocious projectille (with no clothes on and yelling de haut en bas), his slingshot could have been good for 200mph hurtling down Stoke Bank - double the 100 mph being claimed elsewhere in 1903.

dh

[Nearholmer]

Gordon Bennett!

 

K

[John M]

JM

 

Can you say more about the D&B petrol-electric tramcars?

 

There were a very few such in the UK, with the drives supplied by Tilling-Stevens of petrol-electric bus fame, so it would be interesting to know if the Dublin ones were from the same supplier.

 

Kevin

There was a description of the petrol electrics and a photos in A T Newham's book which I have managed to mislay.

 

http://gofree.indigo.ie/~nigelo/dbstframes.htm provides a summary

 

"In 1915, two petrol-electric tramcars had been obtained. These were 33 feet in length, mounted on twin bogies, with accommodation for both first and third class passengers. Each were driven by a six cylinder Aster petrol engine powering a maximum traction type bogie at one end"

 

The tramcars were double decked, the generator set appears to have been housed in a compartment on the lower deck, presumably along with the 1st class accommodation.

 

Its claimed that some of the bodywork from the petrol-electrics was re-used in the two Ford railcars built in the 1920s.

[runs as required]

Were the Petrol Electrics an attempt to enable the line to avoid the Dublin Corporation ban on steam trams and run through over the DUTC to the Pillar?

dh

 

Edited having discovered how to use the D&B website

[John M]

Were the Petrol Electrics an attempt to enable the line to avoid the Dublin Corporation ban on steam trams and run through over the DUTC to the Pillar?

dh

 

Edited having discovered how to use the D&B website

The petrol electrics appear to be a final attempt to introduce through running onto the DUTC system after the 1911 electrification proposal failed.

 

They may have been intended to replace steam on short distance working at the Dublin end of the line and possibly a "fast" passenger service the Blessington.

 

Its difficult to see how the petrol-electrics could have coped with the lines traffic patterns of heavy mixed, excursion trains & military traffic on the long climb from Jobstown to the summit at Crooksling.

 

The 1911 electrification scheme seems to have been as much a scheme to open up the section of line in County Dublin to urban development with electric working from the Pillar to Crooksling, the electric cars hauled onwards to Blessington and Poulaphuca by mobile generator cars.

 

The small Ford railcars appear to have been mainly used on short distance workings at the Dublin end of the line with steam on the infrequent services over the full distance of the line.

[Nearholmer]

Truly interesting. I'm going to have to see if I can get a book about this line.

 

The generator van idea is right up my street; almost an early version of the Bournemouth-Weymouth section after 1967.

 

K

 

PS: wasn't Poulaphacca (I can never spell or pronounce that!) a significant hydro-electric generator location? Maybe from the early 1920s? [just checked! it was after the Shannon Scheme, not before, in the late 1930s] Would seem like a good source of cheap electricity for a tramway.

[Buhar]

Anyone have any thoughts or information about the LMS railcar (I think it was produced with Leyland). I've got two or three photos and that's it. It was quite a modern design and wouldn't have been out of place next to the AEC WM and Park Royal vehicles.

[John M]

Truly interesting. I'm going to have to see if I can get a book about this line.

 

The generator van idea is right up my street; almost an early version of the Bournemouth-Weymouth section after 1967.

 

K

 

PS: wasn't Poulaphacca (I can never spell or pronounce that!) a significant hydro-electric generator location? Maybe from the early 1920s? [just checked! it was after the Shannon Scheme, not before, in the late 1930s] Would seem like a good source of cheap electricity for a tramway.

The generator vans were an interesting concept and just might have been a workable proposition. Certainly less noise and vibration in the passenger compartment than a petrol-electric tram.

 

The tramway closed several years before the hydro-electric scheme. Poula-phucca became something as a back water after the hydro scheme tamed the falls, Blessington and the lakes becoming a much bigger attraction. The replacement 65 bus serves the nearby village of Ballymore Eustace rather than Poulaphucca.

 

There would have been little rate payer support for the continued operation of the tramway once road became a viable alternative as the Baronial Guarantee scheme the local ratepayers and Government to pay a guaranteed dividend on the original share capital in perpetuity in addition to making up the operating losses on the Tramway.

 

A similar situation arose with the Clogher Valley Railway in Northern Ireland in 1941, both Merrion Street and Stormont had to pass legislation to buy out the shareholders and protect employee pension severance pay entitlements.

[runs as required]

Anyone have any thoughts or information about the LMS railcar (I think it was produced with Leyland). I've got two or three photos and that's it. It was quite a modern design and wouldn't have been out of place next to the AEC WM and Park Royal vehicles.

 

Is it the bus like Leyland in the link in this quote from post #31 above ('on the same lines' as the later Leyland National that gave birth to the Pacers) ?

.

Click this link  http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/british-diesel.html  .....

Later on in the piece there are .... details of the Leyland rail bus that the LMS ran - and also the 1930s English Electric diesel electrics.

dh

PS

I meant to add that there was of course the well known earlier road-railer adaptation of a regular Leyland Lion road bus.

There used to be a kit of this

dh

[Echo]

 

Is it the bus like Leyland in the link in this quote from post #31 above ('on the same lines' as the later Leyland National that gave birth to the Pacers) ?

.

PS

I meant to add that there was of course the well known earlier road-railer adaptation of a regular Leyland Lion road bus.

There used to be a kit of this

dh

 

I thought the bus was a Karrier - the Ro-Railer sold as a kit by Keyser?

[PhilJ W]

The Leyland railcar was an articulated three car DMU with streamlined driving cabs at each end. Unlike the GWR/AEC railcars it had horizontal underfloor engines like the BR first generation railcars. The road-rail bus was built by Karrier not Leyland and was one of three such vehicles. As well as the LMS bus there was  a similar vehicle sent to Holland with normal control instead of the half cab and a lorry for the LNER. The LNER lorry was the most successful lasting in service until the 50's being used by platelayers in Scotland.