pre BR first generation DMU railcar development (not steam)

[Echo]

Just a thought on the Walkers thing, maybe one or more of the staff from Armstrong Whitworth joined the team? I know some are supposed to have gone to English Electric.

 

Armstrong Whitworth also built locos and railcars that ran in multiple pre-WW2. I wonder if the Brazilian multiple units were true multiple working or just dragging the rear car along?

[BernardTPM]

Almost all of Armstrong Whitworth's diesel units had electric transmission, not mechanical, hence the movement of staff to English Electric. They were also very keen on multiple working which was much easier with electric transmission. There's a neat photo of one of their broad gauge locos working in multiple with a standard gauge railcar on the work's test track in the Brian Webb book.

[Nearholmer]

Delving slightly, and thinking further:

 

- the CDR had railcar experience before the articulated Walker units, and articulated Walkers were supplied to the Clogher Valley (common senior managers) before the CDR.

 

- walkers had a strong track record in HGV and road bus building

 

I'm seeing a customer-supplier design partnership here, which may answer the "where did the railway knowledge come from" question.

 

What I need to check is who built CDR cars 7 and 8, the pre-articulated diesels? Were they built by Walkers?

 

Kevin

[runs as required]

Delving slightly, and thinking further...

- walkers had a strong track record in HGV and road bus building

I'm seeing a customer-supplier design partnership here, which may answer the "where did the railway knowledge come from" question.

Kevin

In 'seeing a customer-supplier design partnership'  you may have the answer.

The thing they might have shared in common was a preference for the rugged Gardner oil engine

Growing up in north west Derbyshire (and spending long vacations working in Ferodo's asbestos works!) I knew of a widespread respect for the slogging reliability of Gardner 5, 6 and 8 cylinder diesel engines used in road based quarry transport in Foden, ERF and Atkinson wagons.

I believe Atkinson was a long term member (since steam waggon days) of the Chorley based group of which Walkers was a constituent.

'North Western Road Car Company' of Stockport attempted a customer-supplier design partnership with Atkinson to standardise on a Gardner engined Atkinson chassis as a substitute for the Gardner engined  Bristols they'd been excluded from acquiring since Nationalisation. NWRCC were over-ruled by their owner BET and the Chief Engineer (Lambert ?) resigned.

 

A further point: from a recipient's point of view, Walkers were very willing to supply a core power bogie - very easy to ship - and ready to arrange a locally fabricated train around. This would be a great advantage in territories keen to build up local industries.

dh

[EddieB]

What I need to check is who built CDR cars 7 and 8, the pre-articulated diesels? Were they built by Walkers?

 

Kevin

No - GNR(I) at Dundalk. 

[runs as required]

Click this link  http://www.railwaywondersoftheworld.com/british-diesel.html  (part of a fascinating digitised resource) to enjoy a spiffingly nostalgic 1935 popularist description of the mechanics of the GWR "diesel rail coaches" featuring some stunning pictures of the high gloss finish the GW cars had when new.  Preumably they very quickly lost that road motor coach gloss when sharing the steam sheds' everyday grit and grime in service.

 

Later on in the piece there are descriptions of the Scotswood built Armtrong Whitworth rail cars (coyly not admitting they were diesel-electric), details of the Leyland rail bus that the LMS ran - and also the 1930s English Electric diesel electrics.

dh

[Martino]

Thanks for that link runsasrequired. That reminded me that I have have complete set of Railway Wonders, unbound, which my late Father collected and passed on to me. I rarely refer to them, not wishing to damage them.

 

Sorry to go off topic.

[Nearholmer]

EddieB

 

Many thanks. Do you know what engines they had? If they were Gardner, the loop might be closing.

 

K

[keefer]

the GWR railcars had AEC 6-cyl engines

 

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/ROD_Terminal%201_Rolling%20Stock_GWR%20railcar..html

 

according to this website (scroll down for the railcars), the prototype had a single 'standard AEC-Ricardo 121 bhp London bus engine' - later cars had 2 engines

[Nearholmer]

Keefer

 

I'm causing confusion ...... I was asking about the engines in CDR railcars 7 and 8, not the AEC railcars.

 

But, you raise interesting stuff, in that AEC was a spin-off of the London General Omnibus Company, which became owned by Underground Electric Railways Group, which, in-turn, explains the very close links between London Transport and AEC.

 

Kevin

[runs as required]

Right! I hope this extract from the excellent  IRRS web site clears a bit of the Fog of War confusion.

Irish Railcars 1907 - 2007

Stephen Hirsch

 

In 1931, the CDRJC made railway history by introducing the first regular diesel railcar service in either Ireland or Britain. Two cars, numbers 7 and 8, could seat 30 passengers each and proved to be extremely fuel efficient, achieving about 25mpg on trial runs. They could also reach speeds of over 40mph, while easily maintaining 30mph over the steeply graded Barnsmore Gap section. After their trials they at first operated between Strabane and Killybegs, but were later seen all over the CDRJC’s system.

 

At the end of the following year the Clogher Valley Railway put a diesel railcar into service on its 37-mile long narrow gauge line from Tynan, Co. Tyrone to Maguiresbridge, Co. Fermanagh. Walkers of Wigan supplied the power unit, which included the drivers cab, a 74hp Gardner engine and a 4-wheel power bogie. Articulated from the power unit was a 29-seat passenger coach, which had been built by the Great Northern Railway in Dundalk. This was the first articulated railcar to run in Ireland and it marked the start of Walkers’ long association with Irish railways. Following the demise of the CVR in 1942, the railcar was purchased by the CDRJC

source:

http://www.irrs.ie/Journal%20164/164%20Railcars.htm

There are many references to the CDR and CVR diesel railcars being mechanically identical.

 

well OT, I could not resist passing on this further quote

The fortunes of the seven-mile long, 3ft gauge Castlederg & Victoria Bridge Tramway, which ran between the two County Tyrone towns named in its title, began to suffer from road competition in the early 1920s. In an effort to counteract this, the company designed and built a 24-seat railcar, which was powered by a 20hp paraffin engine. Put into service in 1925, the vehicle, whose appearance bore more of a resemblance to a garden shed than to a railway carriage, could achieve a speed of 30mph on level track. It covered approximately 30,000 miles before it was withdrawn at the end of 1928.

I was lucky enough to wander round the Republic and the North just as these wonderful lines were closing or just recently derelict, I would dearly love to have seen the 30mph garden shed.

dh

[Nearholmer]

Thanks DH,

 

Still no clue as to the engines used in 7 & 8 though.

 

There are photos of the C&VBT vehicle in a book about the line that I have, and it truly was an eighth wonder of the world. Describing the engine as a "paraffin" one leaves a few possibilities: it might have been a hot-bulb engine; or, a spark-ignition engine with a vaporiser. Must have had a charming aroma, and, at 20hp, have reached 30mph only when going down a very steep hill, with a fierce gale at its back!

 

K

[keefer]

Keefer

 

I'm causing confusion ...... I was asking about the engines in CDR railcars 7 and 8, not the AEC railcars.

 

Kevin

My apologies Kevin, I didn't notice you were replying to EddieB.

 

As an AEC aside, it's interesting that the development of the underslung engines benefitted both buses and railcars, allowing both to have maximum passenger space above floor.

[runs as required]

....As an AEC aside, it's interesting that the development of the underslung engines benefitted both buses and railcars, allowing both to have maximum passenger space above floor.

That 'Railway Wonders of the World' link above explains that the GWR AEC engine, although below the carriage frame was mounted vertically on each side adjacent to the driven bogie - like the engine mounted vertically behind the driver in the famous LT (and elsewhere) AEC Qs.

AFAIK, the first use of diesels horizontally in this country were Leyland (beside the driver above the chassis) on those pre-war Greenline coaches, then BMMO, and Sentinel sited amidships below a (rather high) bus chassis.

dh

[runs as required]

Thanks DH,

Still no clue as to the engines used in 7 & 8 though...

K

I thought the frequent references to the CDRJC and CVR Walker power units being mechanically identical meant the Donegal ones were also Gardners. Though I think Walkers did also use Leyland engines.

dh

 

Update

I've only just remembered I have a Pan paperback by Edward M Patterson 'The County Donegal Railways' David and Charles Series 1972. 

Page 167:

'1931 was a memorable year, for then the petrol engined railcars were joined by the first two diesel engined vehicles. They were of GNR design, and the underframes were built at Dundalk and given Gardner 6L2 engines. Again O'Doherty built the bodies. No. 7 went into service in June 1931... No. 8 joined it in the following November.'

 

[Nearholmer]

Perfick!

 

I couldn't find my copy of that book, because my book cave is in such a state of total disorder!

 

So, a customer with lots of railway experience, and positive experience of Gardener engines, works with a supplier who has road vehicle experience, to produce a hugely practical design. I wonder how the marriage came about? Did the CDR go to open tender, or a Walkers salesman go on holiday to Donegal, or did Forbes' sister live in Wigan? We may never know.

 

What is pretty clear is that "the very good idea" was largely overlooked by railways in GB, which, where they explored diesel, seem not to have seen it as a potential tool to cut rural railway costs, except for the Southern, which was definitely on that plot by c1946 ....... Naturally thinking diesel-electric, rather than mechanical, though.

 

K

[EddieB]

EddieB

 

Many thanks. Do you know what engines they had? If they were Gardner, the loop might be closing.

 

K

FTAOD, we're discussing the County Donegal Railways nos. 7 and 8 of 1931.  They had 74bhp Gardner 6L2 engines, "the same as used in the company's modern road buses" (to quote Colin Boocock from "DMU Compendium").

 

This information is supported by "The Light Railway Railcar in Western Europe" by the late WJK (Keith) Davies, which also has scale drawings of CDR nos. 4 and 7-8.

[PhilJ W]

Thanks DH,

 

Still no clue as to the engines used in 7 & 8 though.

 

There are photos of the C&VBT vehicle in a book about the line that I have, and it truly was an eighth wonder of the world. Describing the engine as a "paraffin" one leaves a few possibilities: it might have been a hot-bulb engine; or, a spark-ignition engine with a vaporiser. Must have had a charming aroma, and, at 20hp, have reached 30mph only when going down a very steep hill, with a fierce gale at its back!

 

K

IIRC they had a Ford engine. Fords made tractors in their factory in Cork from about 1916. The engine used was derived from the model T engine and a version using paraffin was an option. It was probably one of these engines that was fitted originally to these railcars. They were most likely fitted later with the Gardner engines. The Gardner LK was available in 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 8 cylinder versions so it was probably the 3 or 4 cylinder that replaced the petrol/paraffin engines.

[runs as required]

I couldn't find my copy of that book, because my book cave is in such a state of total disorder!

Take comfort from the theory that disorder can result in unexpected juxtapositions that generate breakthroughs - through serendipity. 

 

Armstrong Whitworth Diesel Electrics

In a stack of books at the bottom of the overloaded shelves where I found my CDR book, I retrieved my copy of the book by Brian Webb 'Armstrong Whitworth A Pioneer of World Diesel Traction'; Lightmoor Press (in conjunction with the RC&TS) 2010.

It tells an engrossing story of the post WW1 vast armaments works at Elswick looking for other work and indeed getting immediately into railway work with an order for 50 NER Q6 0-8-0s. Orthodox steam locomotive work was to dominate output, but in the 20 years until AW were ordered back into war production in 1939 they had turned out “ 1,532 steam, electric and diesel locomotives, railcars etc.”

 

pre-electrification - Growing your customer base

For me their most interesting collaboration was with the CME of the Buenos Aires Great Southern Railway (BAGSR) Pedro C Saccaggio.

He wanted to develop commuter lines in the expanding BA, but could not justify the infrastructure costs of electrification: OHL or third rail and sub stations. He favoured the concept of the travelling  ‘power house’ a vehicle carrying its own generator set which could supply electricity to traction motors distributed throughout the train.

Once the business had built-up, a permanent installation of electric power could be justified and the mobile ‘power houses’ transferred onto the next ‘pre-electrification’ line to be developed.

Saccaggio considered a ‘power house’ could energise a five coach train and toured Europe sourcing his kit. He chose Sulzer of Winterthur for 600hp diesel engines; Oerlikon of Zurich for generators; traction motors from Metrovickers Trafford Park, control gear from English Electric and Elswick Newcastle for the mechanicals and for assembly of two power houses to be shipped to BA for finishing and erection in the BAGSR workshops.

 

Advantage of a Broad Gauge

The 5’6”gauge enabled the two sLV28 Sulzer engines to be mounted side by side aboard the 1-A2A-1 1200hp mobile ‘power house’

The first trains began operating in !929 being driven from either end but trouble ensued with frequent breakages of joints etc due to the engines being stopped and started some 200 times daily at stations – only later did engines idle at stations.

a later pair of 1700hp AW Sulzer BAGSWR mobile power houses

 

AW laid down a Sulzer engine manufacturing shop under licence and tried to interest British railways, particularly the Southern in the idea of ‘pre-electrification’ but without success – though the Hastings units could have arrived a generation earlier. The LNER tried a few AW diesel railcars but, being cash strapped, stuck to their Steam railcars.

This is just one more hitch in the LNER missed opportunities after WW1 with the abandonment of the Merz engineered mainline NER electrification; Charles Merz being Newcastle Kings College (now University) based, had a lot of involvement in AW.

 

I can recommend Webb's book as a wonderful source of 4 and 7mm line drawings for modelmakers.

 

dh

 

Edit to add subheads to help 'readability'

[Nearholmer]

Phil

 

Your mention of the Cork Ford tractors links direct to my favourite little diesel locos http://www.irsociety.co.uk/Archives/22/Wagonmaster.htm

 

This is strictly OT, so I will keep it short, but they were designed in-house by Bord na Mona, their chief engineer at the time being an ex-BR man from Ashford works, and the use of the Ford tractor engine was a key, because it meant that the parts needed for maintenance could all be sourced locally. The choice of rod-drive was very unusual by the date concerned, and was deliberate, because the rods could be machined in-house, whereas they didn't have the facilities to make roller-chains. It was a brilliant piece of fit-for-the-local-circumstances design, and some of them are still chugging away in original configuration today, although many have been rebuilt as DH in the past fifteen or so years. Easy to drive too ........ so I'm told.

 

Kevin

[runs as required]

IIRC they had a Ford engine. Fords made tractors in their factory in Cork from about 1916. The engine used was derived from the model T engine and a version using paraffin was an option. It was probably one of these engines that was fitted originally to these railcars...

Of course!

I'd forgotten TVO (Tractor Vaporising Oil). My dad used to sell it to farmers for their Fordsons and Fergies after the war in Britain. Its big attraction was exemption from duty. So, like paraffin, it had to have brightly coloured additives in order that that it could be traced by the Revenue.

All the Derbyshire hill farmers ran their Austin Heavy 20s and flat nose Morris Cowleys on TVO; the interior fumes were horrendous. You could only turn the TVO tap on once the petrol engine was really HOT.

55% OT ?

dh

[Nearholmer]

Although people used to run all sorts of things on paraffin, it will cause engine-knock and valve-burning, which TVO won't, because it is a very slightly different formulation. I used to know what to "dope" paraffin with to make it behave exactly as TVO, having been shown the mix by an uncle, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was!

 

K

 

PS: tractor websites say mix paraffin with petrol, but I'm sure that isn't what we used to do.

[russ p]

I used to think the smell of TVO fumes was the smell of ice cream

[Nearholmer]

Right......

 

I excavated the CDR book from the cave, and that reminded me of the important missing-link between the CDR and Walkers: the ex-CVR steam, converted to diesel using a Gardener engine, loco called "Phoenix".

 

So, a Walkers salesman did come to Ireland, but he flogged the CVR a steam loco, thereby setting in train the events that led to the articulated railcars.

 

Full story from the pen of Ted Wade, here http://www.madeinpreston.co.uk/Road/atkinsonsteam.html

 

And, the C&VBT shed railcar definitely had a 20hp Fordson (i.e. Tractor) engine - marked clearly as such on the company drawing.

 

Kevin

 

(Will get to the Armstrong Whitworth stuff tomorrow!)

[PhilJ W]

Many larger petrol engined vehicles during the 20's and 30's had a system called autovac for delivering fuel to the engine from a low slung petrol tank. It worked by fitting a small tank higher than the carburettor that fed the engine by gravity. This small tank was itself fed from the main tank by using vacuumn from the inlet manifold (like those dreadful vacuumn wipers fitted for many years to Ford cars.) The favourite trick was to fill the small tank with petrol and the main tank with paraffin and by the time the petrol in the small tank had been used the engine was warm enough to run on paraffin, this was of course illegal.