L&Y Barton Wright Class 25 0-6-0 George Norton/LRM kit

[woodbine]

I have one of these to build and the instructions are a bit sparse. Before I embark on working it out for myself (it's only my fourth kit), I thought I might ask here if anyone can point to any articles (I've searched here) about the kit, either here, in the L&Y Soc literature (I have 20 years worth but it's a lot to search through), or elsewhere, detailing how others have done it, pitfalls + solutions etc?

[K14]

This thread makes mention of it:—

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18334&sid=36b9a0cfb52607dc2335c8e161f119f0

[woodbine]

This thread makes mention of it:—

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=18334&sid=36b9a0cfb52607dc2335c8e161f119f0

Yes, I read that thread. It mentions the 2-4-2 and the various kits for Aspinall class 27/28s, but not this Barton Wright class 25 kit. The instructions in mine (a 4mm George Norton original rather than the same kit in a LRM box) are very, very brief and for the 7mm kit, which seems different.

[58herbie]

I really need to get myself one or two of these kits for holmfirth

[skipepsi]

From the response so far I would go for as many photos as possible route.

[micklner]

Ask London Road Models they took the Norton range over.

 

 

http://traders.scalefour.org/LondonRoadModels/locos-tenders-chassis/lancs-yorks/

Edited April 24, 2016 by micklner

[Jol Wilkinson]

Both the Geo Norton/LRM L&Y 2-4-2T and the BW 0-6-0 have sold in significant quantities over the years. While the 2-4-2 received criticism here on RMweb (as referred to above) some of it was unjustified. Many modellers have successfully built the kit without complaint, including at least two professional modellers who built several and would not withhold any criticism they had.

 

The 0-6-0 hasn't been criticised  AFAIK, although it has sold in fewer numbers that the tank loco kits. I haven't built one but it looks as though it would be fairly straightforward. I have built the LNWR Cauliflower from an original Geo Norton Connoisseurs Choice kit which goes together very well, despite the complication of the "humped" running plate. 

 

The instructions and parts list for the BW Ironclad were retyped and possibly amended, while still referring to the original drawings. I've attached pdfs of both.

Ironclad instrs.pdf

Ironclad parts list.pdf

[woodbine]

Ironclad instrs.pdfIronclad parts list.pdfIronclad instrs.pdf

On 24/04/2016 at 14:07, LNWRmodeller said:

Both the Geo Norton/LRM L&Y 2-4-2T and the BW 0-6-0 have sold in significant quantities over the years. While the 2-4-2 received criticism here on RMweb (as referred to above) some of it was unjustified. Many modellers have successfully built the kit without complaint, including at least two professional modellers who built several and would not withhold any criticism they had.

 

The 0-6-0 hasn't been criticised  AFAIK, although it has sold in fewer numbers that the tank loco kits. I haven't built one but it looks as though it would be fairly straightforward. I have built the LNWR Cauliflower from an original Geo Norton Connoisseurs Choice kit which goes together very well, despite the complication of the "humped" running plate. 

 

The instructions and parts list for the BW Ironclad were retyped and possibly amended, while still referring to the original drawings. I've attached pdfs of both.

AHA! Bingo! Thanks a squillion LNWRmodeller, that is just what I was missing from my George Norton kit. It also wasn't in the S/H LRM kit I had a look at, presumably it had got separated at some time. Now I can begin.

Edit:15/4/23

Since the RMweb host crash of April '22 lost most of the files associated with this thread I will reupload them as time permits, starting here.

Ironclad instrs.pdf

Ironclad parts list.pdf

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
Lost files

[woodbine]

From the number of PDF downloads already (10), after only a few hours, it looks like it hit the spot. It may be handy for either LRM or the L&Y Soc to make them available from their websites? Seems like I'm not the only one with an old kit in the cupboard!

[Jol Wilkinson]

From the number of PDF downloads already (10), after only a few hours, it looks like it hit the spot. It may be handy for either LRM or the L&Y Soc to make them available from their websites? Seems like I'm not the only one with an old kit in the cupboard!

Ah, but only two people actually needed it, because they pushed the "Thanks" button.

Edited April 24, 2016 by LNWRmodeller

[Horsetan]

Ah, but only two people actually needed it, because they pushed the "Thanks" button.

The other eight spotted a freebie.

[Worsdell forever]

The other eight spotted a freebie.

More likely just nosey...

 

Hope we're going to see the build here.

[Dave Holt]

I confess to being nosey!

Dave.

[woodbine]

Hope we're going to see the build here.

 

Erm, on the spot now, aren't I?

 

If you don't mind a build time measured in geological timescales then I'll have a bash, but I warn you my attention will likely wander to other things. I already spend more time on the internet than actually modelling, and the thread will go cold now and then.

 

This will not be a masterclass, it will describe various learning experiences as and when I get to grips with unfamiliar stuff.

 

A quick background sketch to set the scene.

 

I have made three locos before, all over ten years ago. Two of them are in whitemetal and required me to scratchbuild the chassis along Rice principles, compensated, and one is a George Norton BartonWright saddletank, again compensated. They're OK, but the saddletank is a limper when run slowly, as I struggled with one of the MJT hornblocks and got fed up. They all went back in the cupboard not quite finished when I realised I had stock and no layout, so my layout has had all my attention since then.

 

Getting a little bored with landscape issues I finally decided that I should get started on this loco for a change.

 

It will be in EM like the others. Here's one.

 

[woodbine]

Here's the kit:-

 

 

I think I'll start with the footplate and work my way downwards. That way, when I'm stuck waiting for the yet-to-be-chosen hornblocks to be posted to me I can amuse myself upstairs with the superstructure. The boiler isn't completely rolled and I'm not sure what diameter it should be, but I'll cross that bridge later:-

 

 

 

I'm not sure yet how I'm going to fix the chassis to the body and having the footplate to look at will help me decide.

Here's the footplate etch, polished ready for soldering:-

 

Buffer beams. Each beam is made up of three layers. It isn't clear until you separate them that they all have the same dimensions. I tried to sweat them together freehand but they slid around when the solder melted, so I made a little jig out of bits of wood and a matchstick of just the right thickness and it worked a treat, first the two strengtheners and then the faceplate.

 

 

 

The Dingham couplings I will use have to be exactly centred with the buffers, which on the kit they are not, which you can see from the line I marked, so I opened them out as needed with a few careful strokes of the piercing saw.

 

 

 

 

Next I held the drawbar, front buffer, and valances all together with map pins and bluetack and soldered up. As I was doing it on a small piece of wood I was able to pick it up and look at it from various angles to ensure it was straight. A bit hair-raising and my fingers got a bit etched!

 

 

 

The LRM instructions advise starting at one end, the back, and working along. The length of the valance works out exactly right if you keep the back flush, giving you a nice bit of footplate resting on the buffer beam. If you do the two ends before doing the middle the valance expands in the heat and you get a bend or a twist, so work along from one end to the other.

Happy with that I then very carefully inspected it against a small steel rule for straight and parallel, tweaking between thumb and finger lightly in just one place till I judged it satisfactory.

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
File recovery

[woodbine]

Next up is the gearbox and motor. I used a Mashima 1224 and some 50:1 single stage gearbox (I can't remember the make, but which had a grubscrew on the final drive), on the saddletank 10 years ago.

This time I fancied trying a High Level RoadRunner 60:1 with a grub screw on the final gear. Being unsure of my abilities I like the option of being able to undo everything and start again! This is a new gearbox and Chris Gibbons wants people to feed back.

 

 

The only motor which seemed to fit with this is the Mashima 1020, which should be strong enough, but whether it can all be hidden we shall see.

Edit--I mean "fit with this" - *within the constraints of this particular model and boiler*. Plenty of other motors will fit in the general sense.

 

Opening out the holes for the bearings with a reamer.

 

 

 

The usual (I guess) spin round in the fingers with the sharp 1/8" drill, and cleaning of edges up, ensured the axle was free in each bearing before I bent the etch up.

Plenty of instructions to follow so no need for comment from me, except I managed to cut through a location pip mistaking it for an etching tab, despite the clear warning not to in the instructions. No big deal. It all happened so fast that I didn't take photos. It recommends 1mm wire for a strengthener but I only had .9mm and it fit perfectly. I had to open out the locating holes in the remote attachment a little to get a positive location before soldering up, and that was it. A blurry little video at the end, to show it spinning cleanly, and a blurry photo of the same in case the video gets lost.

 

https://youtu.be/ZdGPsBWIO00

 

 

 

That is as far as I can go now until I have the frames assembled, as I may have to file the outside of the bearings to fit, which I don't want to do after the gears are fixed, so the next job is the frames.

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
Replacing lost images

[Buhar]

Slightly   but I'm curious about how you get on with Dinghams on bogie stock or long overhangs (eg on tank locos).  I think they're an elegant solution for wagons but even with 3ft minimum curves I get side-pull on longer stock.

[Quarryscapes]

Sorry, wrong thread! 

Edited April 30, 2016 by Quarryscapes

[woodbine]

Slightly   but I'm curious about how you get on with Dinghams on bogie stock or long overhangs (eg on tank locos).  I think they're an elegant solution for wagons but even with 3ft minimum curves I get side-pull on longer stock.

It's not off topic, since it will be part of the build. I don't know yet, as I've yet to fit them, but as it's an end to end layout with not much in the way of curves and all the shunting will happen with wagons I don't think it'll affect me. Perhaps sprung buffers might help if there's a bit of tightening on a sharp curve, and there is the facility to spring the couplings as well. What will affect my decision making, since the loop can only go on one end of a vehicle, will be which end of the loco gets the loop. The loco and wagons will always have to point in one direction only.

Edited April 30, 2016 by woodbine

[woodbine]

Before separating the frames from the etch to cut out for the hornblocks and stuff, I know I need coupling rods to establish the hornblock positions when the frames are together. I had a look at the coupling rods as supplied in the kit on the same etch. These are of a type which I hadn't seen before and it isn't exactly clear to me how they are meant to go together. Since I reckon it's a problem not exclusive to this kit I opened another thread for it, which you can view here if you need to see the details.

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/110750-coupling-rods-jointed-at-knuckles/

 

There were some interesting replies, and my conclusion, at least until a simpler solution is found, is that they are not fit for purpose without some demanding alterations. Instead I'm going to use a set of Alan Gibson Universal Coupling rods (code 4M92) which I have in store already.

[woodbine]

Time passes...

 

The sides were tack-soldered together and a hole drilled for the compensation pivot.

 

Using the edges of the hornguides to give me the right distance between axles, the coupling rods were duly assembled out of odd bits left over from previous models, using normal methods for universal rods jointed on the crankpin, which I needn't describe here.

How did I come to have all those bits left over and yet all three previous locos from ten years ago have all they need? It's a puzzle.

 

Bushes were soldered into the rear axle position and the front and middle hornguides cut out. As an interesting aside I've included a picture of two axle bushes on a 1/8" axle. One is a Romford from way back and is a worryingly slack fit so I'll have to be thoughtful about where I use them. I also have in my bits box some with very thick shanks, should I ever encounter holes that are too big.

 

 

Using a fret of Alan Gibson EM spacers I erected the frames, using a very long 1/8" steel rod through the rear axle bushes and some lines marked on a board. The angle of the camera makes it look skew-wiff but it's not. I arranged for the holes in the front and rear spacers to line up with the attaching holes in the footplate.

 

 

 

 

The flat spacer will also carry a PCB mount for the pickups. The final spacer, which will also carry a PCB pickup mount, will also be a motor mount. I need to know where the motor will end up, so I need wheels and axles on before I  do that one.

 

High Level Hornblocks were assembled with no trouble, and filed to fit as per the instructions.

With the frames in one piece and all square and level etc., I was able to position the High Level hornblocks using the coupling rods and axle jigs in the normal manner.

 

Choice and treatment of wheels in the next post.

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
restored lost images

[woodbine]

This post is specific to this kit, and has been a source of angst.

 

The prototype had 4'71/2" wheels, 13 spokes, crank between spokes, and a 10" offset for the crank, according to Barry Lane's "Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Locomotives".

The closest EM wheels for the job, which 10 years ago I used on the saddle tank rebuild, were made by Sharman, but they are no longer available.

Ultrascale seem to have nothing suitable, not that I could afford them if they had.

Alan Gibson's catalogue then, looking at anything between 4'6" and 4'71/2.

The 4854S 18mm has only 11 spokes and won't do

The 4854W 18mm has 14 spokes and 91/2" throw and would have been the closest, so I got some, only to find that they came without crankpin holes, only a depression where it would be.

 

 

 

Not having a drill press or anything, I searched T'internet for a solution, but they they all required the drill press. Eventually I gamely had a go by eye, being very, very careful to keep the bit upright and not daring to breathe.

 

 

 

I think that is unsatisfactory.

 

Colin at Alan Gibson kindly allowed me to swap them for postage and the price of replacing the damaged centre.

The 4855E 18mm 14 spoke has an 11" throw, and importantly for me has the crankpin holes cast in. It's really for the LNER J25 etc., the shape of the spokes flares out to the boss, but I'll be blowed if you can see that from up here!

 

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
replaced lost images

[woodbine]

The wheels need a little preparation before using.

On the reverse the raised centre boss interferes with the crankpin, so has to be chopped back a bit with a chisel-shaped knife. I did this with it on the bench against a stop, not in my hand or fingers.

 

 

 

 

I countersunk the hole a little to take the screw head.

 

That's better.

 

 

Next I also countersunk the axle hole to let the axle ease in, but I haven't shown that.

 

The next job is to try the gears and motor to see if they fit.

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
replaced lost images

[woodbine]

On 17/05/2016 at 19:35, woodbine said:

The next job is to try the gears and motor to see if they fit.

 

And here's the answer to that one. With the wheels in their place and the 1020 Mashima motor and High Level Roadrunner mount slung where it will clear the inside of the boiler, the motor mount, with its two-stage gears, almost touches the sleepers! This of course is entirely in line with what Chris Gibbons of High Level said would happen, as he tried to persuade me to stick with a single stage gear. I fancied the 60:1 ratio and thought it might squeeze in but was wrong. I'll use it elsewhere eventually.

 

 

 

Luckily I have a 1224 Mashima and an ultrascale mount and 38:1 gearset up my sleeve. I liked the High Level idea of being able to withdraw the motor from the mount complete with the worm, so I opened out the hole to a suitable size, which wasn't as easy as I thought it was going to be, hence the rather battered look about it.

 

 

 

However, it whizzes round the axle nicely.

 

 

 

And here it all is, in position, nothing bouncing along the sleepers, and even though it's a bigger motor, it's still within the boiler.

 

 

 

I should have done my homework at home with the acetate sheet before buying on impulse. But I suppose I'm not alone there!

The next job, in the next post, is to finish the frames before painting.

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
restored lost images

[woodbine]

Having the motor in place told me where to put the final spacer. The motor will be supported eventually on something rubbery.

 

 

 

The next pic shows the unnecessarily fiddly firebox sides, which I had to tin and then hold in place with tweezers, with about 1/2mm  margin to solder it on with.

 

 

 

Then the rod-in-tube pivot for the compensation beam. I kept the solder away from where it wasn't wanted using a neat (?) paper washer. The pic is before the excess is filed off the outside of the frame.

 

 

 

The brakehangers were poked through and soldered, then cut to oversize.

 

 

 

The compensation beam is shown here, which will rest on the two forward axles. Exact adjustment by bending to give a level ride will come later, it's only 0.9 brass wire.

Finally the guard-irons were soldered on, by tinning them first. This was another fiddly job that should have been easier. Patience and determination shouldn't be required for such a paltry item!

 

 

 

Not quite finished yet, as I have to decide how and when to add the cosmetic driving wheel springs.

 

Edited April 15, 2023 by woodbine
restored lost images