More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

On 03/06/2021 at 09:21, billbedford said:

 

Spring stops tended to be fitted to steel framed wagon. I'm not sure why. 

 

Yes, that's what I noticed - a photo in Midland Wagons of one of the steel-framed D664 vans shows them, but it's one from LMS days - post-1936 livery.

 

The Great Western had them since before it moved to iron frames, so I dutifully modelled them:

 

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Edwardian]

Yes, that most go-ahead railway, the Great Western had them, I noticed, on the steel u/f wagons, but so too did the GER, including on the wooden u/f Dia.16s. They have an inverted cast 'T' stop, as did earlier steel u/f  Dia.17s. Later the GER went on to an open hoop pattern, much like the GW's from c.1889. As he was the progenitor of both the Dia.16s and Dia.17s, I wonder if James Holden is the link here.  

 

As you know, Stephen, I've started work on some GE wagons recently, hence my sudden awareness of the point! 

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Edwardian
spelling!

[Mikkel]

 

8 hours ago, Rail-Online said:

I cannot recall if I have added this pic of a D299 to the thread before.  SECR Longhedge shed 1920 on loco coal duties and 'pooled' by then.

 

 

Tony

 

Look at how the sleeper ends are free of the dirt/cinders/wotsit.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Mikkel
Making myself intelligble.

[Edwardian]

35 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

 

 

Look at how the sleeper ends are free of the dirt/cinders/wotsit.

 

 

 

Poncy southern ballast....

[Compound2632]

55 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Look at how the sleeper ends are free of the dirt/cinders/wotsit.

 

19 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

Poncy southern ballast....

 

Well now, it's the track up to the coaling stage, not the Chatham main line! 

 

The less said about the South Eastern's in the 19th century, the better. I read Bradley's books a very long time ago; I recall his tale of the driver of an F, I think, on the carpet in Stirling's office for speeding. (Exceeding a point-to-point average of 40 mph, I suspect.) "It was a beautiful fine evening, he could see the signals for miles ahead, so he just gave the old girl her head." (Note the horse-language.)

[Mikkel]

Ah ok, a coaling stage explains it.

 

I was looking through Vaughan's Great Western Architecture for inspiration today, and some wagons caught my eye in  a photo of Swindon Works "about 1904" as the caption says (p393).

 

Here is a close crop. The author is focused on the locos behind, but I thought these works wagons were interesting - note the unusual style of "GWR" on the wagon in the left foreground and the "tilt" on the one in the center (but not a tilt wagon as such I assume). 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Mikkel

[Edwardian]

51 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

Ah ok, a coaling stage explains it.

 

I was looking through Vaughan's Great Western Architecture for inspiration today, and some wagons caught my eye in  a photo of Swindon Works "about 1904" as the caption says (p393).

 

Here is a close crop. The author is focused on the locos behind, but I thought these works wagons were interesting - note the unusual style of "GWR" on the wagon in the left foreground and the "tilt" on the one in the center (but not a tilt wagon as such I assume). 

 

 

Yes, but what colour are they? 

[Compound2632]

On 03/06/2021 at 19:21, Mikkel said:

I was looking through Vaughan's Great Western Architecture for inspiration today, and some wagons caught my eye in  a photo of Swindon Works "about 1904" as the caption says (p393).

 

A nice lot there. From Tony Wood's Saltney book I learn that the wagons with an X are ones that have been withdrawn from revenue service, assigned to the Engineering Department, and renumbered in a separate series. Here we have 2-plankers 213 and 234 or 236, along with a pale-looking one, and another in the background behind the iron fence; 213 and the pale one look to have their axleguards outside their springs, which is, I think, the usual style for conversions from BG. 

 

In the front row, on the right, is a 2-plank wagon whose number I read as 22801, if correct, it's the first wagon (numerically) of old series Lot 123. The wagon on the right, 33303, clearly has LOCO DEPT on its door, possibly something more written underneath that and under G.W.R which, as you say, is unusually large - as is the number. My notes from Atkins have nos. in the range 33001-33200 as N2 and 33453-33842 as N6; I don't have a note of the lot numbers but these presumably replaced older Loco Dept wagons in the 33xxx series such as 33303. Is it iron or wood bodied? It look to me as if the side is made in three hinged sections.

 

Mostly hidden behind the roof on the right is a higher-sided wagon that just has LOCO on the bottom right plank. It might be one of the early 1870s 4-plank wagons except that it has no diagonal ironwork.

 

In the second line of wagons, the 2-plank on the left looks to have a five-digit number beginning with 1, which fits, and it's got the curved brake lever:

 

 

The loading looks odd - planks about 18 ft long laid flat over both ends, with a pile of about 10 ft long planks on top. I wonder if the sheet on No. 234/6 is covering a similar stack of timber, though sitting on the wagon floor.

 

On 03/06/2021 at 20:13, Edwardian said:

Yes, but what colour are they? 

 

Black and white and red all over.

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
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[Northroader]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

 

Well now, it's the track up to the coaling stage, not the Chatham main line! 

 

 

 

LCDR, Sole Street, 1897.

 

[Ian Smith]

3 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

Mostly hidden behind the roof on the right is a higher-sided wagon that just has LOCO on the bottom right plank. It might be one of the early 1870s 4-plank wagons except that it has no diagonal ironwork.

To me, it looks like the diagonal strapping is on the inside - I think I can see a shadow of something that I can convince myself is strapping at both ends of the wagon.  I would suggest that the left-most wagon (33303) is iron bodied, I think there is evidence of the L angle running around the top of the sides and ends.  I agree that the sides look like there are 3 drop down sections - I knew that some of the ballast wagons Px (I can't remember the diagram no.) had those but I wasn't aware that loco coal wagons in the N series had that attribute, but I must admit that I haven't really studied N series wagons much.

Ian

[Crimson Rambler]

Now this is a main line - the down fast through Elstree around 1900. One can see the sleeper ends by the cess do not have a full depth of ballast so the ends are partially exposed. I have noted this 'defect' in several photos of this section of line around this time but following relaying, which occurred not long afterwards, the new sleepers were 'properly' ballasted. Whether or not the ballasting in the photo was preparatory to relaying I cannot say - maybe it was.

 

 

As it happens its my Avatar!

 

 

Crimson Lake

 

 

[Edwardian]

22 minutes ago, Crimson Rambler said:

Now this is a main line - the down fast through Elstree around 1900. One can see the sleeper ends by the cess do not have a full depth of ballast so the ends are partially exposed. I have noted this 'defect' in several photos of this section of line around this time but following relaying, which occurred not long afterwards, the new sleepers were 'properly' ballasted. Whether or not the ballasting in the photo was preparatory to relaying I cannot say - maybe it was.

 

 

As it happens its my Avatar!

 

 

Crimson Lake

 

 

 

Probably OK if you're only running small engines 

 

.... hat, coat

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Crimson Rambler said:

the down fast through Elstree around 1900.

 

At the latest summer/early autumn 1899, as the clerestory brake carriages have the original large lookouts. Following an accident at Bakewell on 13 June 1899, there was a scurry to locate places on the main lines where the six-foot was less than 6 ft; on 15 July the instruction went out to remove the large lookouts - which gave a maximum width of 9'6¼" - and in November Clayton reported that the work was well in hand [R.E. Lacy & G. Dow, Midland Railway Carriages Vol. 1 (Wild Swan, 1986) p. 126].

 

I think the leading carriage is a humble D504 31 ft third brake, rather than a D534 32 ft slip composite - the compartment doors look equally spaced to me. But the next carriage is rather grand - one of the twenty D522 54 ft 12-wheel bogie lavatory composite brakes built in 1896, the last main-line arc-roof carriages to be built before the change to the new square-light clerestory style. They are often seen in turn-of-the-century photos of express trains, mixed in with the clerestories, until corridor carriages tool over after c. 1905/6. I don't know how they were used after that, except that one finished its days along with D509 48 ft clerestory lavatory composite as the Walsall Wood branch set, up to the withdrawal of the passenger service in 1930.

 

The four clerestory carriages are, I think, a D499 48 ft bogie lavatory third brake, a D514 33'6" lavatory composite, a D508 48ft bogie lavatory composite, and a D530 32 ft passenger brake van. Unless there are further vehicles, the train provides six first class compartments, four with lavatories, and seventeen thirds, six with lavatories, providing 32 first class and 164 third class seats, a ratio of  1:5⅛ - possibly a little on the low side for first class at this period.

[Compound2632]

1 hour ago, Edwardian said:

Probably OK if you're only running small engines 

 

That's a 25 or 1853 Class bogie single, built 1887-90. Cylinders are 18" x 26", boiler is pressed to 160 psi, and grate area is 19.6 sq ft, with a total heating surface of 1240 sq ft. Weight in working order is 43 t 9 c 3 q (excluding tender); length over buffers (including the 3,250 gal tender) 52'8½". 

 

Show me a British express passenger engine of the late 1880s with similar or larger dimensions. The only one I can find off-hand is Webb's Teutonic 3-cylinder compound.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That's a 25 or 1853 Class bogie single, built 1887-90. Cylinders are 18" x 26", boiler is pressed to 160 psi, and grate area is 19.6 sq ft, with a total heating surface of 1240 sq ft. Weight in working order is 43 t 9 c 3 q (excluding tender); length over buffers (including the 3,250 gal tender) 52'8½". 

 

Show me a British express passenger engine of the late 1890s with similar or larger dimensions.

 

So, I guess what you're saying is they didn't start small, they just became so relative to everyone else!  

[Compound2632]

12 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

So, I guess what you're saying is they didn't start small, they just became so relative to everyone else!  

 

I note that you have not answered the question!

 

For the period of the photo under discussion, they were certainly large. The key point is that Midland engines remained adequate for their work* up to grouping and beyond, as a consequence of the way their work was organised. They were also highly cost-effective, as was evident to the LMS management. The Deeley compounds and the 4Fs were large engines for their wheel arrangement. 

 

When it comes to the large 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s of the 1920s, I'm with the Fat Contoller: "I never did like these big engines - always going wrong."

 

*At least when provided with appropritate fuel.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

16 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I note that you have not answered the question!

 

For the period of the photo under discussion, they were certainly large. The key point is that Midland engines remained adequate for their work* up to grouping and beyond, as a consequence of the way their work was organised. They were also highly cost-effective, as was evident to the LMS management. The Deeley compounds and the 4Fs were large engines for their wheel arrangement. 

 

When it comes to the large 4-6-0s and 4-6-2s of the 1920s, I'm with the Fat Contoller: "I never did like these big engines - always going wrong."

 

*At least when provided with appropritate fuel.**

 

** Or when there were two of them 

[Compound2632]

4 minutes ago, Edwardian said:

** Or when there were two of them 

 

Oh, like the LNWR you mean? Double heading was a consequence of Edwardian decadence - dining cars, corridor carriages, lavatories for heaven's sake! What happened to Victorian stiff upper lip (or other parts of the anatomy as appropriate)?

 

The economics of one large engine normally under-utilised verses one normal engine usually worked at its design capacity and occasionally assisted should be considered.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Compound2632

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Oh, like the LNWR you mean? Double heading was a consequence of Edwardian decadence - dining cars, corridor carriages, lavatories for heaven's sake! What happened to Victorian stiff upper lip (or other parts of the anatomy as appropriate)?

 

The economics of one large engine normally under-utilised verses one normal engine usually worked at its design capacity and occasionally assisted should be considered.

 

It all went wrong after people started wearing underwear.  It led to a pampered generation unable to survive draughts or, even, mild chafing.

 

Bah, humbug!

[Crimson Rambler]

As David Tee remarked to me on more than one occasion:-

 

"I often wonder how the L&NWR and the Great Western, with their small engines, were able to haul their express trains in the late nineteenth century"

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[Annie]

2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

I often wonder how the L&NWR and the Great Western, with their small engines, were able to haul their express trains in the late nineteenth century"

 

Well during the years of enlightenment the Great Western used these.  What happened after that interests me not at all.

 

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

"I often wonder how the L&NWR and the Great Western, with their small engines, were able to haul their express trains in the late nineteenth century"

 

In the LNWR's case, until Richard Moon's retirement, the 40 mph schedules helped keep the power requirement down.

[Edwardian]

23 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

In the LNWR's case, until Richard Moon's retirement, the 40 mph schedules helped keep the power requirement down.

 

That and the principle 'once you've got it going, don't stop!'

 

Hence the adoption of Clark & Webb chain brakes, I suppose.

[John-Miles]

I read in a recent Backtrack that the Midland had a lower operating ratio than the other major railways. That means it spent less of its income on running trains than the others. You can be as rude as you like about double heading but the evidence shows that the Midland knew what it was doing. Also having dealt with several thousand Midland photos for the Roy Burrows' collection (now in the MRSoc Study Centre) I am confident that most Midland trains were not double headed. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by John-Miles
typo

[Compound2632]

How a railway earns its money:

 

 

Washwood Heath Sidings, March 1905 [NRM DY 2799, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.]

Edited September 14, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted