More Pre-Grouping Wagons in 4mm - the D299 appreciation thread.

[Compound2632]

Tony, those look good. Unfortunately I was a bit late in the day in starting to accumulate David Geen kits - most of the ones I've got are L&Y. I note the kits came with the round-bottomed grease axleboxes that appear in the official photo of No. 98765 of the first batch, Lot 200 of 1888. I don't know whether these were fitted to all of this lot of 1,000 wagons, or why - the drawing might reveal more. (There are usually annotations giving alterations for later lots, unless the drawing was completely re-drawn.)

 

Your theory of block working is interesting; all I can say is that from the three photos known to me, only one shows a wagon in traffic and that one is on its own! Also, what evidence do you have for survival well into LMS days? I think there's reasonably good evidence for replacement of Midland wagons after roughly about thirty years. For the wagons of Lot 200 that would be 1918; for the last batch, Lot 430, around 1928. Their 8 ton capacity would be telling against them by this time, too. 

 

Of course these wagons were not alone among Midland wagons in having bottom doors - this was a standard feature of the D299 wagons, a large proportion of which were in mineral traffic, differentiating them from earlier high-sided wagons. As was being discussed some pages back, the provision of bottom doors resulted in a re-design of the standard 9 ft wheelbase, 14'11" over headstocks underframe. I do wonder, now that you've made the suggestion of block working, whether these wagons were built specifically as replacements for bought-up PO hopper wagons. For example, the wagon nearest the camera in this photo of the accident at Wath-on-Dearne on 27 August 1887, whilst still a PO wagon, would presumably be a prime target for the Midland's purchase scheme. Customers who had had hopper wagons might well have insisted that the railway company supply similar wagons.

 

 

NRM DY 288, released under the Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-ShareAlike (CC BY-NC-SA 3.0) licence by the National Railway Museum.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Compound2632
image re-inserted

[Compound2632]

Browsing idly though back-numbers of the Midland Railway Society Journal, I've come across a photo that I think shows five of these D343 hopper wagons together at the head of a train at Royston Junction [No. 67 (Spring 2018) p. 14].Unfortunately the photo isn't captioned but it must be c. 1903 - 1907/8 as the engine, a curved-frame Kirtley 0-6-0, has had its smokebox door lamp-iron removed but is otherwise in pure Johnson condition - no Deeleyfication. The train is a mixed goods rather than mineral, as the following vehicles are a covered goods wagon and at least one, possibly several, long low-sided wagons. 

[Dave Hunt]

Dating double frame goods engines by their 'Deeleyfication' is a tricky business. An order was issued on 14th November 1905 to fit all A, A1, B, C, C1, D, E, F and P boiler engines requiring new smokeboxes with Deeley's first style of dished smokebox door. Like all Deeley doors it had strap hinges and was closed by dogs around the periphery but, unlike later dished doors, featured a narrow seating ring with the dogs attached partly to the ring and partly to the smokebox front plate. The front handrail was curved over the door and there was a small grab handle on the right-hand side. It was soon superseded by the flat type of Deeley door with the same seating ring and handrail arrangement and it would seem that within only a few years all the Johnson doors had been replaced. Problems were encountered with leakage from these doors and in 1910 a new dished type appeared with a wider seating ring, straight handrail and no grab handle. The dogs were mounted wholly on the seating ring. Although the flat doors disappeared after a while, narrow seating rings were retained by many engines with the later dished doors. Replacement smokeboxes from this time had snap-headed rivets used in their construction rather than countersunk ones. Deeley’s chimneys were parallel and had capuchons, or ‘wind guards’ as the Midland Railway referred to them and even before they received Deeley smokebox doors, some locomotives were fitted with them.

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

... but what is not so clear is the rate at which smokeboxes were replaced, i.e. how long it would be before the entire fleet had needed to go through the works.

[Dave Hunt]

An 'informed guess' (!?) would suggest that the changeover was quite rapid and by 1910 all had Deeley doors.

 

Dave

[Compound2632]

3 hours ago, Dave Hunt said:

An 'informed guess' (!?) would suggest that the changeover was quite rapid and by 1910 all had Deeley doors.

 

Certainly by 1910, going on photos, I think. The Bachmann 1532 Class 0-4-4T is "typical" of the many combinations possible during the transition - made doubly treacherous by the great renumbering. The confusion that reigns between c. 1904 and c. 1910 is one reason why I favour c. 1902, with a dabble in c. 1922. By the latter date the Midland was looking at its most Midlandish from the point of view of those looking back from the 30s-50s through their crimson-tinted spectacles but the former date is to my mind the truly classic moment - all the full flower of high Victorian elegance but with the added fin de siècle spectacle of Johnson's Belpaires and Compounds and Clayton's clerestories.

[PenrithBeacon]

I'm wondering if it all happened so quickly because much of the work was carried out at shed rather than works level. Essentially Derby supplied the doors and chimneys and the sheds did the job. 

[Crimson Rambler]

I beg to differ and suggest the work was done at a works level rather at sheds as the Deeley smokebox was of a different design from the Master's although of course the overall lengths were the same. RMD's front plate was flanged to fit inside the wrapper whereas SWJ employed an angle iron giving its characteristic sharp corner. Although the insulated smokeboxes had a somewhat different construction the sharp corner was retained. I believe replacing smokeboxes would have been considered beyond the capabilities of most sheds with some exceptions such as Kentish Town but I'm happy to be corrected.

 

As a rule of thumb engines received works attention roughly every seven years so David's suggestion of the work being completed by 1910 or thereabouts more or less ties in from when RMD took control.

 

Crimson Rambler

[Compound2632]

2 hours ago, Crimson Rambler said:

I believe replacing smokeboxes would have been considered beyond the capabilities of most sheds with some exceptions such as Kentish Town but I'm happy to be corrected.

 

I wouldn't presume to correct but I will offer the observation that the Midland's Outstation Shops were equipped to do heavy repairs - an official photo of that at Sheffield Grimesthorpe (after c. 1905) shows a substantial overhead travelling crane, boilers out of engines, and general dismemberment. There were thirteen such works, attached to the principal square sheds; seven of these were still doing heavy repairs at the grouping though only three, Kentish Town, Holbeck, and Saltley, continued long in to the LMS period. Heavy repairs, for the purposes of making returns to the Board of Trade, included reboilering or taking the boiler off the frames, or any two of lesser activities such as new cylinders  or retubing. Either of those on its own was a light repair!

 

Ref: C. Hawkins & G. Reeve, LMS Engine Sheds Vol. 2 (Wild Swan, 1981).

[Crimson Rambler]

Fair comment Stephen, I stand corrected - my 'some exceptions' therefore comprises thirteen in number!

 

 

Crimson Rambler

[PenrithBeacon]

My post above is speculation of course, but, as Steven says, many sheds on the Midland could do and did major work and given the throughput of the changes it is plausible that many locomotives were modified at outstations. The LMS changed all that later.

AFAIK there is no surviving documentation for the process other than it was planned and carried out. 

Edited April 27, 2021 by PenrithBeacon

[Compound2632]

To get a bit back on topic, there was a similar system of wagon repair shops - more of them, pretty much one at every major marshalling yard and also the former Birmingham & Gloucester Locomotive Works at Bromsgrove, which was, I think, the only one that built new wagons, at times when the demands on the Litchurch Lane works were too great.

[Mikkel]

My Kingdom for a penthouse cell in Exeter prison: 

 

https://www.maryevans.com/tempImages/10472680p.jpg

[Compound2632]

23 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

My Kingdom for a penthouse cell in Exeter prison: 

 

https://www.maryevans.com/tempImages/10472680p.jpg

 

Well, in relation to a certain debate, a couple of the Midland wagons - a D299 and a D305 - are grey but the D357 covered goods wagon centre stage has been coloured in red-brown; also some of the LSWR wagons have been coloured grey. There's also a LNWR D2 2-plank wagon - the diamonds are there - coloured red-brown. Modern photographs of the prison show the cell blocks to be in the same red brick as the entrance buildings.

 

On the left there is a grey covered goods wagon that looks very much like a S&DJR Road Van - the splodges of white are in the right places for the lettering! It could be a Midland tariff van or banana van, but those seem less likely.

[Mikkel]

Yes it looks very much like a SDJR Road Van.

 

The two Opens to the left of the D357 Covered Goods, at first sight I thought they carried right hand small GWR, but I can't make the diagrams match.

[Compound2632]

6 minutes ago, Mikkel said:

The two Opens to the left of the D357 Covered Goods, at first sight I thought they carried right hand small GWR, but I can't make the diagrams match.

 

I had taken them for Great Western 4-plank opens (deceived by the colouring?) with G . W . R on the left but on closer inspection both seem to have a central door stop that overlaps the side rail; that makes me wonder if they're the S&DJR D299-clones - one could read the left-hand lettering as S & D J R as easily as G . W . R!

[Compound2632]

And... the wagon to the left of the pukka D299 is probably a LNWR D4 - note the pushrod-worked single-block brake.

 

This is a LSWR yard adjacent to Queen Street station, so one might expect to see LSWR and allied company wagons, rather than Great Western, and indeed we do. I count 6 definitely LSWR, 3 definitely MR, 3 probably S&DJR, and 2 LNWR, with 8 eluding identification. MR / S&DJR wagons will have arrived via Templecombe and LNWR via Willesden.

Edited April 28, 2021 by Compound2632

[Northroader]

There’s a good row of pantechnicons lined up behind the rail wagons, with one loaded on a wagon?

Edited April 28, 2021 by Northroader

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Northroader said:

There’s a good row of pantechnicons lined up behind the rail wagons, with one loaded on a wagon?

 

Or possibly just LSWR delivery vehicles?

[Western Star]

2 hours ago, Mikkel said:

My Kingdom for a penthouse cell in Exeter prison: 

 

https://www.maryevans.com/tempImages/10472680p.jpg

Apologies guys, all I get is error 404.  please can someone either confirm the URL or give a search string for google?

 

thank you, Graham

[Mikkel]

The link is erratic, strange. If you go here and search for "Exeter prison". In Chrome the image can be enlarged by right-clicking:  https://www.maryevans.com/

 

PS: There's another less interesting photo of the yard here (and a poorer version of the above photo): http://www.exetermemories.co.uk/em/_organisations/prisons-devon.php

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Mikkel

[Andy Hayter]

43 minutes ago, Western Star said:

Apologies guys, all I get is error 404.  please can someone either confirm the URL or give a search string for google?

 

thank you, Graham

I had that too but it is working now.  So go away for a while and have another go.   just keep trying

[Northroader]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Or possibly just LSWR delivery vehicles?

Well, they’re not “soft tops”, rather a long wooden van body, there are a few two wheel open carts mixed in, and it struck me it’s quite an interesting concentration.

[Compound2632]

Oh dear not much to report. I'm lacking - in mojo, and in Humbrol matt varnish. The latter is awkward, now that Hobbycraft have stopped stocking Humbrol, but it's not really an adequate excuse for the former.

 

I have, however, been tidying in the garage with a view to arranging the layout more ergonomically - at present it has a well which some years ago was wide enough but now isn't and a duck-under which was once trivial but now isn't, either... It doesn't use the whole width of the garage, there being shelving along one side. So once I've removed everything from the shelving...

 

Both the shelving and the supports for the layout are Ikea Ivar, so it's quite easy to re-arrange. I have a plan for a lifting section in lieu of the duck-under.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Compound2632
Typo corrected

[richbrummitt]

2 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

So once I've removed everything from the shelving...

 

Clearing out to be able to move around seems like a perpetual battle for me. Emphasis on the out. Moving things around does not usually solve any space problem here and will lead to the regular moving around of those items moved around to make 'space' that is highly volatile.