South Wales Valleys in the 50s

[88D]

9 hours ago, br2975 said:

There are numerous shots of Abergwynfi on a local history site.

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Best not fill up the RMWeb memory in one go though !

Great shots. What’s the website please? Dai

[chrisf]

I think that photo 5 was taken on 2nd July 1960.  The reporting number is that of the SLS tour on that date orgainsed by W A Camwell.  It was unusual in one respect.   For the leg that went down to the colliery near Glyncorrwg the regular workmen's set was used.  If memory serves it comprised three vehicles from a Local and City set built for through trains over the Metropolitan [now Hammersmith and City] Line.   Two survive at Didcot. 

 

Chris

[Northmoor]

12 hours ago, br2975 said:

 

 

Two things stand out for me (apart from how well Johnster is capturing the confined character of the Western Valleys):

- How many men in the 1950s/60s, voluntarily wore a tie in their spare time;

- How short is the headshunt at Abergwynfi?  On St.Davids I've made it just long enough for a small Prairie, knowing it might not be realistic.  Looking at this, perhaps it is....

[The Johnster]

2 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Two things stand out for me (apart from how well Johnster is capturing the confined character of the Western Valleys):

Thank you, Northmoor; it's exactly the effect I was aiming for.  The real Dimbath Valley, which never had a railway or a mining village, though it is literally undermined from pits at Gilfach Goch, Penygraig, and Ogmore Vale, is a very steep and very narrow defile, not far short of a gorge, wooded in reality but of course at Cwmdimbath the trees were all cut down long ago for pit props.  It is a rare survivor of the sylvan loveliness that upland Glamorgan must have been before the pits destroyed it.

 

Ties were the norm unless you were a student, in which case a polo neck was permissible, or a scruff in which case anything was permissible, usually a stained sleeveless vest in warm weather.  The progression from unmarried young man to married middle aged one was marked by the acquisition of a hat, cap if you were working class, trilby for middle, and bowler for professional, and top for posh.  Not wearing a hat was a sign of youthful rebellion; you were someone who didn't care if you caught your death of cold.  'What are you rebelling against'?  'What have you got'?  This began to change in London about 1964, and the rest of the country 3 or 4 years later.

 

The headshunt at Abergwynfi was just long enough to take a large prairie, no cheating with the buffer beam hanging over the turnout blades and the pony wheel only just clear as there was a ground disc signal that the loco had to clear.  Cwmdimbath's headshunt is a little longer, and can clear 3 10' wheelbase wagons for shunting purposes, or a pannier and a brake van.  Google images has several shots taken from the embankment leading to the Avon Branch bridge, the other and more common perspective for photos of Abergwynfi.  The main road, A4107, passes through the village and climbs the mountain to the Bwlch y Clawdd (Pass of the Dyke), then drops to Treorchy in the Rhondda Fawr, built as an unemployment relief project in the 30's.  There are several such mountain roads in the area.  You can see it climbing out on the first photo Brian posted on the 9th March, such an unusual veiwpoint that I failed to recognise it as Abergwynfi and thought it might be Blaengarw.  This shows very effectively how cramped the site was!

Edited April 2, 2020 by The Johnster

[88D]

Believe it or not, but quite a few students, esp those from public schools, wore cravattes into the 70s. Didn’t suit me: short neck, and just grammar school. Hated the polo necks, made you feel hot; especially as many were made from nylon! Tieless for me.

[The Johnster]

Oh, yes, I remember them.  Tieless for me, too, still is.  My socialist background tells me that anyone who wears a suit and tie is probably the enemy until he has proven otherwise.  Cravats and bow ties were and still are grounds for getting your retaliation in first.  Brian Sewell wears them; I actually watch his programmes because I hate him so much, and he's taught me a lot about art history...

[chrisf]

Gosh, I remember cravattes!  I think I still have one of mine.  I gave up wearing a tie regularly when I retired.  These days they are blatantly unfashionable, which is one reason why my rainbow neckware appears from time to time. The other is of course its symbolic importance.

 

Chris

[br2975]

Even the dreaded 'Faceb**k' produces some gems from its' local and social history groups, such as one relating to the Afan Valley (allegedly the remotest valley in the South Wales coalfield)

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Try this one for size; 

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I don't have a clue who the family group are, primarily because the background is of prime importance to us. 

Taken off the bridge behind the buffer stop at Abergwynfi, we are looking in the opposite direction to the station (up the valley) toward Avon Colliery which is under the bridge in the distance.

But look, a goods shed, yes, the solitary 'kick back' siding that formed Abergwynfi Goods, closed in 1963.

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There you are John, it'll cost you an IPA next time you see me in Chapter Arts !

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Regards

 

Brian

[Northmoor]

Many years working in the defence industry taught me that ties were expected in meetings, mandatory of you were meeting military officers.  Like them or not they are a minor indicator that you are taking the meeting seriously.  Latterly they weren't expected in the office, "smart casual" was completely normal. 

Now outside of defence, I find people routinely wearing a tie are very much the exception.

Rob

[br2975]

And, as if I haven't spoilt you enough, here are more shots of Abergwynfi, from the dreaded "Faceb**k"

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I suspect some may be the product of enthusiasts, but as is the norm nowadays on social media, it's a "pick 'n' mix free for all" with no credit to the originator - to which end, if there are any toes trodden on, I'll remove the relevant image(s).

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Regards

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Brian

[br2975]

1 hour ago, The Johnster said:

 The progression from unmarried young man to married middle aged one was marked by the acquisition of a hat, cap if you were working class, trilby for middle, and bowler for professional, and top for posh.  

And it was tradition in South Wales for widows to wear their late husbands cap; to signify their solitary status................. a lesson learned from my family roots in "Mount", where into the 1970s  I would diligently read the obituaries in the local rag(s), especially descriptions of the funeral, interment and wake - who ( names and numbers ), what ( undertakers, cars, hearse, flowers, hymns, psalms, readings, and the food at the wake ), where (church, house  and club ) , when, the weather ................... I never got to the sports page

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Brian R

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, br2975 said:

Even the dreaded 'Faceb**k' produces some gems from its' local and social history groups, such as one relating to the Afan Valley (allegedly the remotest valley in the South Wales coalfield)

.

Try this one for size; 

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I don't have a clue who the family group are, primarily because the background is of prime importance to us. 

Taken off the bridge behind the buffer stop at Abergwynfi, we are looking in the opposite direction to the station (up the valley) toward Avon Colliery which is under the bridge in the distance.

But look, a goods shed, yes, the solitary 'kick back' siding that formed Abergwynfi Goods, closed in 1963.

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There you are John, it'll cost you an IPA next time you see me in Chapter Arts !

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Regards

 

Brian

I reckon that’s worth two at least IPA, me old mucker; a goods facility I never knew existed accessed from the colliery branch behind the access gate!  I wonder what the twmp behind the loading platform, directly beyond the fence post, is of?

 

Photo of the BRITISH RAILWAYS 1948/9 liveried 4575 is dated 1951.  
 

And you’ve posted yet more seminal Abergwynfi stuff.  First off, from the ‘usual’ viewpoint, a 57xx waiting for the road down the bank with 3 flat ended Colletts, probably in 1948-56 crimson livery; loco livery unidentifiable but probably unicycling lion. 
 

Second shot, unknown 4575 and Collett bowenders running in, GW or very early BR, before smokebox numbers.  The fireman has put a few rounds on toger her up the bank and now he can’t keep her quiet. Couple of items on the platform but no sign of life, not even a signalman collecting the token.  Doors are closed probably locked on the shelter, detail I’ve not seen before!
 

Third shot I’ve seen on google, must be post 1953. 5545 with auto, A44 cyclops and A28 (no recessed driver’s door).  There’s actually a human being in this!
 

No.4; wow!  Interesting angle, and the best shot I’ve seen of the shelter; never noticed the end corrugated door here before.  Road is set for the loop, with trap point shut.  Abergwynfi was a station, staffed, and not a halt.  Not seen the little canopy on the shelter before either; I’ve now got enough to make a stab at this.  The Avon Branch gradient can be clearly seen, with wagons on it.  Nameboard  is WR style. 

 

No.5, 8650 with 3 Colletts, first one a bowender in late GW or pre June 1948 BR livery.  The trap point is shut, presumably clipped out of use. 
 

No.6 is back on familiar territory, 8750 and 3, 2 Colletts and a Hawksworth.  Looks very like 9649, new to Tondu 1946. I have this loco on CDB, in green G W R initials livery.  Look at that catch point, open for business!  Valves starting to lift and nobody on the platform; signalman can be seem in the box, though.   WR nameboard and no shelter. 
 

Thanks again Brian; you are brightening my SI.  I ought to get out more, but....

[Welchester]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Cravats and bow ties were and still are grounds for getting your retaliation in first.  Brian Sewell wears them; I actually watch his programmes because I hate him so much, and he's taught me a lot about art history...

 

I understand that bow ties are almost an item of uniform for gynaecologists.

[Kingdom2]

7 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Many years working in the defence industry taught me that ties were expected in meetings, mandatory of you were meeting military officers.  Like them or not they are a minor indicator that you are taking the meeting seriously.  Latterly they weren't expected in the office, "smart casual" was completely normal. 

Now outside of defence, I find people routinely wearing a tie are very much the exception.

Rob

 

When I left Wales to start work at the Ministry of Defence in 19.. , I was living in a bedsit  and normally wore a West Mon (Pontypool) school tie to work, as its blue, green, red and yellow stripes  went with any colour shirt.  I was waiting in the lift to go to the fourth floor when an elderly gentleman dived in, and as the lift began its upward journey, he carefully looked me up and down and as we passed the second floor, eventually asked "young man, when did you serve with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ?"   I pondered for a moment, then told him that while to A&SH were raised in 1794, West Mon was a Haberdashers School which had its origins in the 17th Century, so why were they wearing 'my' tie.  He immediately pressed the button to stop the lift at the next floor - and I never saw him again. I often wore the tie in later years, but never got a reaction at meetings

 

John

[Welchester]

9 hours ago, Kingdom2 said:

 

When I left Wales to start work at the Ministry of Defence in 19.. , I was living in a bedsit  and normally wore a West Mon (Pontypool) school tie to work, as its blue, green, red and yellow stripes  went with any colour shirt.  I was waiting in the lift to go to the fourth floor when an elderly gentleman dived in, and as the lift began its upward journey, he carefully looked me up and down and as we passed the second floor, eventually asked "young man, when did you serve with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ?"   I pondered for a moment, then told him that while to A&SH were raised in 1794, West Mon was a Haberdashers School which had its origins in the 17th Century, so why were they wearing 'my' tie.  He immediately pressed the button to stop the lift at the next floor - and I never saw him again. I often wore the tie in later years, but never got a reaction at meetings

 

John

 

I once had charge of the little tin church just below West Mon. By that time it had lost its station (Blaendare Road Halt), although you could still walk along the alignment into Griffithstown. Ponymoile viaduct has gone now, I believe.

[88D]

9 hours ago, Kingdom2 said:

 

When I left Wales to start work at the Ministry of Defence in 19.. , I was living in a bedsit  and normally wore a West Mon (Pontypool) school tie to work, as its blue, green, red and yellow stripes  went with any colour shirt.  I was waiting in the lift to go to the fourth floor when an elderly gentleman dived in, and as the lift began its upward journey, he carefully looked me up and down and as we passed the second floor, eventually asked "young man, when did you serve with the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders ?"   I pondered for a moment, then told him that while to A&SH were raised in 1794, West Mon was a Haberdashers School which had its origins in the 17th Century, so why were they wearing 'my' tie.  He immediately pressed the button to stop the lift at the next floor - and I never saw him again. I often wore the tie in later years, but never got a reaction at meetings

 

John

I went to watch Jones School, West Mon play Neath GS in the late 60s. It was played at The Gnoll, cost everybody a quid each to watch a schoolboy match. Neath won 3-0, very tight game, watched by over 8000 people! Those were proper rugby days.

[br2975]

2 hours ago, 88D said:

I went to watch Jones School, West Mon play Neath GS in the late 60s. It was played at The Gnoll, cost everybody a quid each to watch a schoolboy match. Neath won 3-0, very tight game, watched by over 8000 people! Those were proper rugby days.

Doubt you could fit that many in the Gnoll nowadays ?

 

[br2975]

Wandering slightly...................But, if Cwmdinbath is remote - then how would one class Glyncorrwg ? (in the next valley west).

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Even more so the extension 'up' the valley to Glyncorrwg / South Pit and North Rhondda Colliery and its' onetime 'paddy train'

 

Edited April 3, 2020 by br2975

[88C]

Some superb pictures you're finding Brian, thanks for posting them. I couldn't help noticing that some of the panniers look remarkably clean, were they on specials?

 

I must admit that I don't know the valleys, my only time in South Wales was two weeks in the summer staying with my grandparents in Barry, enough to get the railway bug though. In those days no one bothered if you wandered round the docks, plenty to see but sadly I didn't take photos. If my memory serves me correctly I may have been taken, by train of course, we didn't have a car, to Pontypridd to visit the market. There was usually a trip on the paddle steamer to Minehead or Ilfracombe and sometimes we caught the train from Barry Pier back to Barry. Another regular visit was to Porthcawl, train to Llantwit Major or Bridgend and then the bus. Happy times.

 

 

[Northmoor]

3 hours ago, br2975 said:

Wandering slightly...................But, if Cwmdinbath is remote - then how would one class Glyncorrwg ? (in the next valley west).

.

Even more so the extension 'up' the valley to Glyncorrwg / South Pit and North Rhondda Colliery and its' onetime 'paddy train'

 

It's not so obvious on the modern Landranger series - partly because so many have been built over - but looking at the OS 1" maps of the late 1960s there seemed to be a "Track of old railway" or a mineral line in every valley and almost every short valley joining it.  When you realise competing companies often built their own lines down the same (narrow) valley, it's not surprising the area must have had the densest railway network anywhere in the UK.

[br2975]

56 minutes ago, Northmoor said:

it's not surprising the area must have had the densest railway network anywhere in the UK.

Allegedly, at its' height, no where in the South Wales coalfield was more than 4 miles from a railway station.

 

[The Johnster]

The sheer density is pretty impressive, but don't be fooled by that 4 miles statistic.  As the crow flies, yes, it is less than 4 miles from North Rhondda Colliery to Blaengwrach in the Neath Valley, but this 4 miles is across the top of a nigh on 2,000 foot mountain with very steep sides; it'd be easier to travel underground once North Rhondda connected to Hirwaun under the mountain.  North Rhondda Colliery, for the incognesiti, is not in the Rhondda Valleys, but at the very top end of the Corrwg Valley and, as Brian says, a bit on the remote side.  It was something of a showcase pit, very modern and I believe the first sunk in South Wales by the newly formed NCB, and named after the North Rhondda coal seam, which it was intended to tap into, incidentally the same seam that was encountered when the R&SB dug Glynrhondda Tunnel, the coal being sold off to defer the cost of the tunnel which led to complaints from some of the local colliery owners.  As a life long socialist and South Walian I have my own axe to grind about local colliery owners...

 

The Glyncorrwg-North Rhondda workman's service is of interest because it used, in succession, the last GW four wheeled stock, followed by the last GW non-gangwayed clerestory stock, and the last GW 'Metropolitan and City' stock.  The train was propelled up the valley from Glyncorrwg and the clerestory brake third had a porthole cut in the end at the van end for the guard to observe the line ahead, a sort of ersatz auto.  It was not, however, strictly speaking a 'paddy train', this term being more correctly used for trains within the colliery precincts and not covered by main line railway passenger train rules and regulations regarding such matters as vacuum (or for that matter any other sort of) brakes, buffers, couplings, communication cord, point locks, or anything, a much more informal arrangement.  The Glyncorrwg-North Rhondda workman's, though not in the public timetables, was a passenger train for regulatory and signalling purposes, and the public could, if they wanted, ride on it; it was a popular day out for enthusiasts and was usually brought out for a trip to connect with any railtours.

 

There were many miner's workman's services in South Wales, using older stock that had had the upholstery removed leaving wooden benches that were much easier to clean.  North Rhondda was unusual in that it was built with pit head baths, but it took the NCB some time to build them as they had promised at all of the other pits, and even in the 1960s some men went home dirty.  The trains had 'clean' compartments for surface and office workers who didn't get filthy to that extent, though many surface workers got just as black as the underground men.  Abergwynfi had a workman's serving the ROF factory, and later the industrial estate, at Tremains, on the SWML just up line from Bridgend, and this used normal stock that was diagrammed into public timetable service for the rest of the day until the Tremains workers came home.  First class was included on these trains, and there may have been a 'ladies only' compartment.

 

Cwmdimbath, had it ever had a mining village with a railway, would have been even more isolated than Abergwynfi, from which access to the Rhondda Valley, Port Talbot, and Bridgend by train were fairly straightforward.  There's isolated and then there's isolated; the 1960 WTT shows a last passenger arriving at 23.55, an auto from Bridgend that connected with the last down from Paddington, the 19.35 IIRC.  Try getting up there after about 8 in the evening by public transport from Bridgend these days!

 

If you want intensity, how about Cwmmer Afan; 5 platforms and a buffet (still in business, under the name it was traditionally known by locally, 'The Refresh'), a hub of single line workings, junctions, bridges, and connections.  There were 3 railways through here, one admittedly on the other side of the river in Cwmmer Corrwg, but within 100 yards or so across this narrow and remote valley.  The R&SB main line from Treherbert to Port Talbot, the GW Llynfi Valley line from Bridgend and Maesteg through Caerau Tunnel to Abergwynfi, and the South Wales Mineral from Neath/Port Talbot to Glyncorrwg, connected by a GW bridge to the Abergwnfi Branch.  All single line.

[88D]

6 hours ago, br2975 said:

Doubt you could fit that many in the Gnoll nowadays ?

 

They would be over the moon if they could reach 1000, or even 500.

[The Johnster]

I remember them before they went in with Swansea to form the Ospreys.  Reputation for getting their retaliation in first, utter thugs...

[Fenway Park]

Ospreys have played at the Gnoll this season as an experiment to see whether there was more interest from Neath than playing at the remote Liberty Stadium. 
 

My wife’s uncle may be tempted but his local side, Resolven RFC come first.  Has difficulty supporting his grandson who plays for Glyn Neath. Old rivalries live on !