Minories Fiddle Yard Query

[Chris Densham]

I'm planning to build a version of the classic CJ Freezer Minories plan (the one with the good facilities) in the near future. I'm currently building/modifying/purchasing the necessary stock. I followed recent threads on this topic with interest but I'm still slightly confused by the fiddle yard arrangements. The plans and some of the excellent layouts around the theme have a standard ladder arrangement of tracks, i.e. both tracks leaving the scenic section are split into a number of tracks via some points. If, as I assume, the tracks arriving in the station have the lower one as arrival and the upper departure and are not bi-directional how do you use the fiddleyard? To put it another way, any train leaving the station from whichever platform can via the crossovers, depart on the "correct" line. The train will then arrive in the upper set of tracks in the fiddleyard. In order to return to the station on the correct line it needs to be in the lower set of tracks. Unless you have yet further crossovers at the start of the fiddle yard you will have to manually transfer the whole train to the lower set of tracks. Am I missing something here. I'd rather have a standard ladder arrangement but could use cassettes as do on my current BLT?

[DCB]

CJF does not show a Fiddle yard on Minories.  To me it suggests a cassette yard if you want minimum space, otherwise you end up with a fiddleyard almost mimicking the Minories station.   The Minories approach tracks are against the back edge of the baseboard which complicates things for a traverser or a ladder fiddle yard.

I guess operationally you would leave the uppermost outgoing track cassette in place unless a train had just departed to use as a headshunt for the station.  Generally the outgoing line is available for much more of the time than the incoming.

Minories can be brilliant if you have simultaneous departures and arrivals but a train slowly backing in after a move between platforms being passed by a train arriving looks especially interesting.

[PatB]

Minories has always struck me as an ideal candidate for either a sliding traverser with loco spurs (to allow train reversal without manual handling) or, given the room, a train turntable. Either should be possible to set up so any fiddle track will align with either up or down roads.

 

For a steam age layout I'd probably go for the traverser. Diesel haulage and DMUs make it less important to keep the motive power facing the same way so the train turntable would make for easier fiddleyard operation.

[Chris Densham]

Gentlemen, thanks for your replies. I'm planning steam age, LNER just prior to WW2. As David says using a traverser is complicated by the positioning of the tracks being on the far side of the baseboard not in the middle. As the layout will be against the wall this is a no-go, as is a train turntable. Looks like I'll stick with the cassettes.

[t-b-g]

I am not at all sure that cassette type fiddle yards had been invented when Minories was first drawn.

 

When I built my version, I used points in the fiddle yard. They were all as short as possible to save space, so they were either Y points or in one case a 3 way. The trick was to make the first one join the two running lines together into a single track and start your fan of sidings there.

 

I also incorporated a dummy line each side of the fan of the sidings, one on the up side and one on the down. This wasn't used for storing trains but allowed one to be shunted in or out at the same time as another train was arriving or departing. This was done by utilising the curve in to the Y point that joins the lines together to insert a further Y with the blades at the station end of the fiddle yard, Mine was quite a long Minories, with trains of up to 7 carriages (admittedly shorter pre-grouping ones) but with platforms around 7ft long. The station was in total 12' long and the fiddle yard 8' It would be possible to do the same fiddle yard for 4' long trains in around 6' for the fiddle yard length.

 

A fiddle yard with points is always going to need to be longer than a traverser or cassettes but I find it much more pleasurable operating, being able to set 5 trains up, run them in and out, without having to do any more in the fiddle yard than change a point or two. When all 5 trains are facing the end of the fiddle yard, I go and change them all round at the same time. With a cassette or a traverser the fiddle yard needs almost as much attention as the station.

[Flying Pig]

Gentlemen, thanks for your replies. I'm planning steam age, LNER just prior to WW2. As David says using a traverser is complicated by the positioning of the tracks being on the far side of the baseboard not in the middle. As the layout will be against the wall this is a no-go, as is a train turntable. Looks like I'll stick with the cassettes.

Minories is always drawn in the same orientation as CJF originally envisaged, but the whole thing could be turned 180° without rearranging the track layout at all. As well as placing the main line more conveniently for a traverser, this would put the goods shed at the back which has some advantages too. For example, it could be built as a large low relief warehouse with a loading bank at the front.

[Izzy]

Having used cassettes for a couple of layouts I would personally advise against them except for a simple single track branch line. My experience was that you spent far more time swopping cassettes around to do the simplest moves rather than running the trains. If there isn't enough room/length for ladder trackwork then a traverser/sector plate is far better, but of course if you don't have the width it is a problem.

 

Izzy

[Zomboid]

Not that it helps if you've not got much room, but wasn't it originally intended to have a return loop?

[BG John]

I can't remember where this came from, and a Google image search didn't find it, so I don't know whose copyright it is, but this is fairly contemporary with the Minories design. It's a kind of big cassette for several trains, that you pick up and turn round. You need to make your own mind up about the risks involved!

 

[sp1]

I can't remember where this came from, and a Google image search didn't find it, so I don't know whose copyright it is, but this is fairly contemporary with the Minories design. It's a kind of big cassette for several trains, that you pick up and turn round. You need to make your own mind up about the risks involved!

 

post-6220-0-55472000-1471976307_thumb.jpg

I was about to suggest that - 'Denny Pattern Fiddle Yard' - I think it's from 60 Plans For Small Railways. For a small BLT it would seem to be great (and you could always have more than one, to swap trains) but for Minories it might be adventurous if you have more than a couple of coaches....

 

Edit to add: by CJF of course- I'm guessing the original idea was by a certain P Denny.....

Edited January 21, 2017 by sp1

[BG John]

I was about to suggest that - 'Denny Pattern Fiddle Yard' - I think it's from 60 Plans For Small Railways. For a small BLT it would seem to be great (and you could always have more than one, to swap trains) but for Minories it might be adventurous if you have more than a couple of coaches....

 

Edit to add: by CJF of course- I'm guessing the original idea was by a certain P Denny.....

It's not in my "2nd Edition Revised" (October 1962) copy, although the idea is mentioned in the text of one of the plans.

[sp1]

It's not in my "2nd Edition Revised" (October 1962) copy, although the idea is mentioned in the text of one of the plans.

My copy is somewhat later - early 70's

[Chris Densham]

I am not at all sure that cassette type fiddle yards had been invented when Minories was first drawn.

 

When I built my version, I used points in the fiddle yard. They were all as short as possible to save space, so they were either Y points or in one case a 3 way. The trick was to make the first one join the two running lines together into a single track and start your fan of sidings there.

 

I also incorporated a dummy line each side of the fan of the sidings, one on the up side and one on the down. This wasn't used for storing trains but allowed one to be shunted in or out at the same time as another train was arriving or departing. This was done by utilising the curve in to the Y point that joins the lines together to insert a further Y with the blades at the station end of the fiddle yard, Mine was quite a long Minories, with trains of up to 7 carriages (admittedly shorter pre-grouping ones) but with platforms around 7ft long. The station was in total 12' long and the fiddle yard 8' It would be possible to do the same fiddle yard for 4' long trains in around 6' for the fiddle yard length.

 

A fiddle yard with points is always going to need to be longer than a traverser or cassettes but I find it much more pleasurable operating, being able to set 5 trains up, run them in and out, without having to do any more in the fiddle yard than change a point or two. When all 5 trains are facing the end of the fiddle yard, I go and change them all round at the same time. With a cassette or a traverser the fiddle yard needs almost as much attention as the station.

Thanks, some really interesting ideas here. I'm sure there were no cassettes around when it was first drawn. I'll have to do some measuring up and see what the possibilities might be. I'm looking at a total max available length of about 17 feet, with 10 feet set aside for the scenic part, which will allow for an occasional six coach train but mainly 5 coach suburban with tank engines/small tender engines, with an available engine in the spur to take the coaches out as the next train. (As described by CJF). I'm not keen on three way points, got one on the current BLT and vowed never to use one again. Most of the time it works ok with most of the stock, but even with a lot of tweaking I'm not really confident in it which is a great shame as it's a great space saver.

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Chris

 

I use a traverser on Sheffield Exchange which is based on the Minories idea. I have no major problems with it.

 

I see you already use cassettes, why not go with something you are familiar with.

 

When designing Exchange I did think about a fiddle yard using points but as someone has already mentioned you can quite quickly end up with a fiddle yard that is a mirror of the layout itself.

[johnb]

I use a sector plate f/y 1ft wide, essentially it's a limited turn turntable, it pivots at one end and with its turn limited to the space necessary for each of its six tracks  to align with the two in/out tracks.

I use mainly EMUs and it will take a four car set or a loco and three long bogie parcels vans.

 

Just my way of doing things

[PatB]

Not that it helps if you've not got much room, but wasn't it originally intended to have a return loop?

 

I'm pretty sure I've seen at least one CJF article where he suggested a single siding with a loco spur kicked back off it, on the basis that one suburban train looks much like another and so the same rake of coaches can be used to represent all traffic into and out of the station.

[daryll]

Sorry to dig up an old topic

Would this work.

[Harlequin]

9 minutes ago, daryll said:

Sorry to dig up an old topic

Would this work.

No, not really.

 

You couldn't run inbound and outbound trains at the same time (or shunt on one side while something is leaving or arriving on the other), which is really the whole point of the Minories track plan.

 

Sorry.

[daryll]

ah , point taken , have you any ideas  ?

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

[Harlequin]

8 minutes ago, daryll said:

ah , point taken , have you any ideas  ?

 

Cheers

 

Daryll

Yes, this was my idea:

 

[Karhedron]

41 minutes ago, daryll said:

ah , point taken , have you any ideas  ?

 

Probably the simplest arrangement is to simply have a scissor cross-over just beyond the scenic break and then start the fan of sidings behind it. The 2 downsides to this are the cost and length. You will be adding over 400mm to the length of the fiddle yard compared to cassettes or a traverser. But it has the advantage of not needing any extra engineering on your part.

[DCB]

The Denny style FY turns the trains, I think he did one on a pivot under a station on a peninsula. 

 I don't understand Harlequins drawing, is it a traverser?

 

You could fiddle with Darryll's drawing to allow parallel running by adding 2 ( or 4 as shown) Y points and bits of flexi or  stick with it change a couple of points and get 5" more length.   See pics

[Harlequin]

26 minutes ago, DavidCBroad said:

 

 I don't understand Harlequins drawing, is it a traverser?

 

Yes, it's a traverser in a box that folds up to the exact same volume as the matching Minories folding box. This box however has three sections: the neck that connects Minories to the traverser (including some useful spurs), the traverser section and a small turntable section.

You can download the PDF from the blog.