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Tim Horn's 5x2 ft baseboard kit made up, a potential source?  Photograph copyright/courtesy of Tim Horn.

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The vexed question of layout height - I favour a high viewing position and scope for sitting down.   I want to avoid the helicopter/seagull view!

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Point levers and protective bollards - Princes Half Tide Dock area in the preservation era.   Virtually all the background warehouses and oil seed factory (Bibby's) have been demolished.

point lev.jpg

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The bollards were necessary round the point levers because much of the shunting was done by rope and capstan, powered from the hydraulic mains which ran all through the docks. The huge coaling cranes at Herculaneum were moved by this method as well.

 

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3 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

The bollards were necessary round the point levers because much of the shunting was done by rope and capstan, powered from the hydraulic mains which ran all through the docks. The huge coaling cranes at Herculaneum were moved by this method as well.

 

 

capstan.jpg

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On 27/05/2019 at 21:09, Stephenwolsten said:

 

Thanks, and I know the card you mentioned.  The Barclay was Efficient, I  think, and it too is at the Ribble Railway.

Hi Stephen, I've only just found your thread and read it from beginning to end - a most interesting project.

The Barclay in the photos wasn't Efficient (AB 1598/18) but Chemicals (AB1823/24) then 'owned' by Keith Rose who kept it at Princes Dock loco for a while before moving it to the YDR and then re-selling it back into industry to a scrapyard in Shipley. He got the loco from a tar distilery or chemical works in Yorkshire but the name/location escapes me at the moment. At Shipley it was renamed Harry and is now preserved at the Pontypool and Blaenavon.

At the time Efficient was just across the river in Seacombe and owned by the Liverpool Loco Preservation Group (with Avonside B3 Lucy) which probably accounts for the confusion.  Jim Peden was also a founder member of the LLPG and let us use his photos to raise funds in the early days. He was a real gentleman and sadly missed.

The B3 in the photo at Middleton was MDHB No21 which was to be combined with Swansea to make one 'good' loco but ultimately both were scrapped.

I have copies of most of Jim's MDHB photos (still obtainable from the IRS) but have attached one of MDHB No1 obtained many years ago from their own archive.

Cheers,

Ray Hulock

MDHB_1.jpg

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Posted (edited)
On 07/06/2019 at 16:35, Stephenwolsten said:

 

 

 

My wife doesn't understand my interest in brick walls!  To compare with the real thing at Clarence Dock, here is a textured paper sold by a Greek trader.   Has anyone tried paper from this seller please?   http://www.ebaystores.co.uk/starboc1

wall greece.jpg

Edited by Stephenwolsten
Deleted reference.

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5 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

Hi Stephen, I've only just found your thread and read it from beginning to end - a most interesting project.

The Barclay in the photos wasn't Efficient (AB 1598/18) but Chemicals (AB1823/24) then 'owned' by Keith Rose who kept it at Princes Dock loco for a while before moving it to the YDR and then re-selling it back into industry to a scrapyard in Shipley. He got the loco from a tar distilery or chemical works in Yorkshire but the name/location escapes me at the moment. At Shipley it was renamed Harry and is now preserved at the Pontypool and Blaenavon.

At the time Efficient was just across the river in Seacombe and owned by the Liverpool Loco Preservation Group (with Avonside B3 Lucy) which probably accounts for the confusion.  Jim Peden was also a founder member of the LLPG and let us use his photos to raise funds in the early days. He was a real gentleman and sadly missed.

The B3 in the photo at Middleton was MDHB No21 which was to be combined with Swansea to make one 'good' loco but ultimately both were scrapped.

I have copies of most of Jim's MDHB photos (still obtainable from the IRS) but have attached one of MDHB No1 obtained many years ago from their own archive.

Cheers,

Ray Hulock

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/MDHB_1.jpg.dc78214ab8a1bf3316f3e91ac2e073fa.jpg

 

Thanks for this helpful information.    I agree that these locos are often confused.   I too miss Jim Peden - he started me out collecting b/w railway photographs more than 25 years ago when I bought some lovely Bank Hall Pug photos from him at a Derbyshire GOG model show.   I have been collecting ever since, now helped by eBay.   I may not have not seen the MDHB's picture of No 1 before and love the clarity of the image. 

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A few posts back Jack Nelson's dioramas were mentioned.  He left several of them to Merseyside Museums and they loaned a couple to Steamport Southport but IIRC, when returned to the Museum, were getting rather 'tired'.  One of them was "Atlantic Dock Junction".  Perhaps the Museum still has them in store?

As for the name "Atlantic Dock" for your layout a possible alternative might be "George's Dock" which was the next one upriver from Princes' Dock and was infilled when the Liver building was built.  Hope this helps.

Ray.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Marshall5 said:

A few posts back Jack Nelson's dioramas were mentioned.  He left several of them to Merseyside Museums and they loaned a couple to Steamport Southport but IIRC, when returned to the Museum, were getting rather 'tired'.  One of them was "Atlantic Dock Junction".  Perhaps the Museum still has them in store?

 

 

This is most interesting as I have never discovered what happened to the Atlantic Dock Junction diorama.   It doesn't seem to have gone to the Conway Museum with some of the others, and was not restored by the LNWR Society (http://letsgoloco.co.uk/the-water-street-diorama/).   Here is a Manchester diorama as an example of a restored one:

 

o_19dd7angjlf4kki1h6b9vghdi3c.jpg

Edited by Stephenwolsten
URL added
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One of my objectives with Atlantic Dock is to use short cuts, labour saving methods and latest technology to compensate for my lack of practical skills and to speed up construction.   I am pondering the use of metal trestles by Screwfix, which quite a few modellers are using to save joinery work.   Here is a picture of what I have in mind , courtesy of 'gismorail' and his Chester Northgate thread.   

leg.jpg

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I have been looking at these as well for my new micro layout. It would be interesting see them in use.

 

Marc 

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What a wonderful thread so absorbing.

 

What remains of the network today considering all the regeneration that has gone on in the areas over the last 20 years or so 

 

Have learnt lots of new information thank you

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Posted (edited)
On 26/05/2019 at 15:47, Stephenwolsten said:

Dock wall and gate.

 

 

Here is an older view of possibly the same location.   Sentinel steam wagons lasted a long time along the dock road.   This b/w picture is too early for me, but does show the great big, sliding dock wall gates to good effect too.  

Liverpool dock road and Overhead Railway - video link

 

Edited by Stephenwolsten
wrong image
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20 minutes ago, simontaylor484 said:

 

 

What remains of the network today considering all the regeneration that has gone on in the areas over the last 20 years or so 

 

 

 

Very little remains, as you suspected, despite UNESCO World Heritage Site listing.   LOR remains include the tunnel entrance at Herculaneum Dock, several pillars embedded in the dock wall, a coach in the Liverpool Museum, and another one in poor condition but now in store having left Coventry.   Of the MDHB system, various bits of track remain embedded in the cobbles or cross the dock road (subject to resurfacing).   A few signal posts survive along with MDHB lamp posts.  Several MDHB locos are in preservation and one is in the Liverpool Museum's store.   A mainline rail route serves the container port but little remains of the extensive network of BR goods depots on the landward side of the dock road, except for tunnel portals.   This is not a comprehensive list - I have probably missed out obvious items, the position changes rapidly with redevelopment, and I live 250 miles away!   My personal view is that the major landowner has missed a great opportunity to keep more of the dock heritage within the redevelopment, to provide a 'sense of place' and distinct identity.   There is very little to indicate the major importance of the area in the past, not even a 'heritage trail' with interpretation boards.  Fortunately, more of the dock complex survives as part of the redeveloped Stanley Dock warehouse area (as well as the touristy Albert Dock area).

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On 06/06/2019 at 21:02, Stephenwolsten said:

Typical quayside fixtures at Herculaneum Dock.   I have been looking at maritime modelling suppliers too, but there is the usual problem of different modelling scales (as with road vehicles too).

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/fix.jpg.e9ef7cac5144a19a0e230bb6e7319214.jpg

There's actually quite a lot of the LOR structure remaining when you know what you are looking for, at Wapping a fairly long stretch of columns has been turned into a fence and the underground station/tunnel at Dingle still exists, used as a garage.

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On 08/06/2019 at 22:27, Stephenwolsten said:

One of my objectives with Atlantic Dock is to use short cuts, labour saving methods and latest technology to compensate for my lack of practical skills and to speed up construction.   I am pondering the use of metal trestles by Screwfix, which quite a few modellers are using to save joinery work.   Here is a picture of what I have in mind , courtesy of 'gismorail' and his Chester Northgate thread.   

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/monthly_2019_06/leg.jpg.45ef510fe35b4eb3635b1896fe66f167.jpg

Glad you have found this info from Chester Northgate Shed useful and I would recommend them as layout supports but would strongly advise to attach a wooden batten to the top rail of the trestle so that you have a wood to wood situation where the base boards are in contact with it's support. The other useful thing about these trestles are how one can vary the height to suit the situation during layout construction. 

Your developing a very interesting thread here which I find most interesting Thanks for sharing your plans and I look forward to future developments . 

 

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This entrance to the transit shed might work as a way of hiding one edge of the diorama..........

 

CBR9-113

 

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Inspiring modelling on the Canada Street layout.   This is based predominantly on Ipswich and Gloucester docks, but a back wall and old police hut is copied from the layout owner's research on Liverpool docks.

 

Sunken Boat

 

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