Electric fret saws

[hayfield]

I bought a second hand fret saw at the weekend, after a bit of exploration (instruction book long gone) I found out how it works and all seems fine, but I do have a few questions which some could help me with

 

 

This is the fellow, a nice Italian machine, using blades with plain ends (no pips )

 

I assume the cut is downwards, the blades attach side on (unless blades with twisted ends are available)

 

Using the blades I have they cut sideways, so I guess I use the machine side on with the cutting edge facing me

 

Can I buy blades which cut metal, if so up to what thickness will they cut

 

Any other tips etc as this is the first fret saw I have had

 

Thanks in advance

[joppyuk1]

Good luck with your new toy. Have you had one before? If not, it's worth practising shapes and lines on some scrap material, remembering that you need thicker blades for thicker wood (not everybody takes that into account and then complain about the number of broken blades they get), have plenty of spare blades. If possible try to find a downloadable instruction book, as this should help with tensioning etc. The cut is downwards, unless, like some idiot not far away from where I'm sitting, you put it in backwards then wonder why it isn't cutting!.

I've some old 'Hobbies' instructions I could share, if you want to pm me, in the meantime check out their range of blades at www.alwayshobbies.com  .

[hayfield]

Good luck with your new toy. Have you had one before? If not, it's worth practising shapes and lines on some scrap material, remembering that you need thicker blades for thicker wood (not everybody takes that into account and then complain about the number of broken blades they get), have plenty of spare blades. If possible try to find a downloadable instruction book, as this should help with tensioning etc. The cut is downwards, unless, like some idiot not far away from where I'm sitting, you put it in backwards then wonder why it isn't cutting!.

I've some old 'Hobbies' instructions I could share, if you want to pm me, in the meantime check out their range of blades at www.alwayshobbies.com  .

 

 

Thanks for the quick response. I will try and google the instructions, I have a selection of hand fretsaw blades, which I hope will fit. Will now look at the link you sent

 

Can you buy the blades where the ends are bent 90 degrees to the cutting face ?

 

Are there blades to cut metal ? (edit, can see fine tooth blades can be used on non ferrous metals) 

Edited March 28, 2017 by hayfield

[Fat Controller]

From the photo, it appears there is a manufacturer's identification plate on the lower body of the machine; might it be worth seeing if they can provide an instruction manual? 

One thing I do wonder about is the location of the on/off switch under the work table; if you are using the machine a lot, it might be an idea to investigate having a foot-operated treadle, leaving your hands free to control the workpiece. One of my neighbours had a rather heavier version of this type of saw, and that had such a thing.

[BG John]

From the photo, it appears there is a manufacturer's identification plate on the lower body of the machine; might it be worth seeing if they can provide an instruction manual? 

One thing I do wonder about is the location of the on/off switch under the work table; if you are using the machine a lot, it might be an idea to investigate having a foot-operated treadle, leaving your hands free to control the workpiece. One of my neighbours had a rather heavier version of this type of saw, and that had such a thing.

I'm sure you meant a treadle for the on/off switch, but here's one I acquired with a "proper" treadle. I really must do it up one day!

 

[bertiedog]

A very wide selection of blades are made, mostly in carbon steel, which will cut softer materials. Blades for steel are made as well.

 

Fretsaw are for delicate work, and mainly cutting out precision components for watch and clock making, as well as model making.

 

This involves a lot of pre drilling start positions, and a large amount of blade changing.

 

The blade retaining blocks may appear at first to only take the blades one way, but the blocks themselves can be rotated to allow the blades to face any direction.

 

There are spiral cut blades that cut in any direction made as well, convenient but not as good as a plain blade in holding a line.

 

The blades always cut on a down stoke, except for abrasive blades.

 

Thin section material should be cut when backed onto a thin wood base, with glue or tape to hold the thin metal down.

All thin  brass tends to curl as stress in the sheet is released in cutting, the backing helps stop this.

 

Wood work is far more straight forward, especially with ply and grainless composite wood. Plexiglass and acrylic will cut well,  but must be sawn slowly to prevent heat building up.

 

Steel in best not sawn on a powered fret saw, it is better to use a hand saw. Most blades will need lubricate or wax on them to help with the cut on a powered fret saw. No lubrication is needed with non ferrous metals, except aluminium, which may need wax or oil to prevent clogging of the blade teeth with swarf.

 

If the machine has variable speed, then veer towards the lower end for harder materials, faster for thin ply etc., to prevent over heating the blades. Carbon blades loose hardness with heat.

 

A good selection of blades can be found on Ebay, get multi packs of assorted  types to try out, and above all it needs a lot of practice to be an expert with fretsaws. As usual the best blades are Swiss brands, but the Chinese make good ones as well, you are gong to break dozens so do not spend a fortune on the best brands.

 

Stephen

Edited March 28, 2017 by bertiedog

[Arthur]

 

 

I have two such fretsaws and rarely use them. One is a small Minicraft saw that I've had for years, the other a larger, more recent, purchase from Lidl.

 

On both, the blades cutting edge faces away from the sprung arm though I cannot see any reason that the blade could not be mounted at right angles to the arm, as you suggest. As you tend to be cutting curves you are constantly moving the orientation of the workpiece anyway so how the blade is mounted is irrelevant I would have thought.

 

As suggested, get in plenty of practice with scrap first. You've really got to let the tool do the work. Pushing in the material too hard flexes the blade and you'll get an inaccurate cut. Feed it in very slowly and gently.

 

You can cut non ferrous metals with them though I've never done so.

 

.

[bertiedog]

In passing, you mention blades without pips or ends and all genuine fretsaw blades have no pips.

The blades with pips are meant for hand saws and coping saws, where the blade is much larger in width, and are meant for slow sawing in wood.

However these blades will fit a power fret saw if used carefully, as can a junior hacksaw blade type, to help straight cuts.

One accessory to get, or make is a straight fence to clamp to the table to be able to cut lines, so a fence and some suitable G clamps.

Most other work is done free hand.

For very precise work the whole top of the table is fitted with a plywood top that fits tight to the blade. It prevents bucking occurring too much, and acts as support for the fine saw edges.

Remote foot switches can be fitted, if your not an electrician, then seek help to add a suitable switch, with heavy duty cable etc., not for power rating, but for wear and tear.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

If looking for the blades on Ebay, they are described as Jewellers saw blades, Swiss Saw blades, or Scroll saw blades, not Fretsaw Blades, which gives limited selection.

 

They will all fit most machines, and are rated by teeth per inch or a number system described in Wikipedia entries etc. For brass etc, aim at as high a tooth count as possible if the work is very precise. Too high and they slow and break.

 

So get a pack of assorted types to try out first. Some types may be listed for hand use only, they will fit the machines, but use with care, they will break more as they are hardened through  blades and brittle.

 

One other function the saw can do with adaption, is power filing, where a small needle file replaces the blade. The file blade must be supported on an auxiliary slider fitted to the table top, to ensure it runs true and can take side strain as it files at the metal work on the table.

 

The main frustration to get over is breakages, they occur all the time,  there is no one cure, except experience and practice in setting a good tension to start with, not slack, and not too tight.

 

Stephen.

[hayfield]

I found a set of Italian instructions on the internet, no photos or diagrams. Here is a Google translate

 

And '50s that the company patented the famous electromagnetic Aeropiccola saw Vibro result
a 'thorough study between Mr. Mario Sansalvadore, a technical and very experienced Torinese
Mr. owner. Conte, providing for a big hit, as indeed will have ', for simplicity
of use and the cutting ductility.
The Vibro was a monoblock (crankcase) formed by the merger, in light alloy, with a blade holder arm
and a flat circular shape, supported by two movable guides which allowed the complete
exploitation of the blade.
The electromagnetic unit, incorporated in the crankcase, with an output of 150watt, acting on a
special crossbow which determined the reciprocating movement, without rotating parts and then
Wear and tear
It did not give any disturbance or unpleasant noise and mounted by common tunnel blades easily
available.
In numerous effects model makers and bricoleurs required an economical electric saw, handy
and easy to use for cutting various types of materials, so the electromagnetic cutter is Vibro
It was created for all amateur working or small businesses, to cut so
precise and fast woods of all essences.
More than 20,000 copies have been sold around the world, confirming its success and
its safety of use and nobody was able to copy this beautiful Fret maker.

 

I had sussed it out as to fitting blades and found ones I bought a while ago for a hand fret saw, different grades but no idea which is what as not marked

[hayfield]

If looking for the blades on Ebay, they are described as Jewellers saw blades, Swiss Saw blades, or Scroll saw blades, not Fretsaw Blades, which gives limited selection.

 

They will all fit most machines, and are rated by teeth per inch or a number system described in Wikipedia entries etc. For brass etc, aim at as high a tooth count as possible if the work is very precise. Too high and they slow and break.

 

So get a pack of assorted types to try out first. Some types may be listed for hand use only, they will fit the machines, but use with care, they will break more as they are hardened through  blades and brittle.

 

One other function the saw can do with adaption, is power filing, where a small needle file replaces the blade. The file blade must be supported on an auxiliary slider fitted to the table top, to ensure it runs true and can take side strain as it files at the metal work on the table.

 

The main frustration to get over is breakages, they occur all the time,  there is no one cure, except experience and practice in setting a good tension to start with, not slack, and not too tight.

 

Stephen.

 

Stephen

 

Thank you for answering my next question as to whether scroll blades work. I have also seen filing blades on sale. Looks like the blade in the saw is a bit short, thus possibly now being too high a tension, will try my existing supply 

[Il Grifone]

I'm sure you meant a treadle for the on/off switch, but here's one I acquired with a "proper" treadle. I really must do it up one day!

 

DSCF0681.JPG DSCF0682.JPG

 

That looks like one of the machines that Hobbies used to sell many years ago. IIRC the cheaper one was about £5 and they did a better one at £10*. There was also an optional electric motor, Thet used to have shops all over the country. When we lived in Bristol (50s), my favourite Saturday  expedition was to Salansons in Fairfax Street followed by a visit to Hobbies just down the road.

 

* My catalogues are long gone and memory is what it is!

 

I found a set of Italian instructions on the internet, no photos or diagrams. Here is a Google translate

 

And '50s that the company patented the famous electromagnetic Aeropiccola saw Vibro result

a 'thorough study between Mr. Mario Sansalvadore, a technical and very experienced Torinese

Mr. owner. Conte, providing for a big hit, as indeed will have ', for simplicity

of use and the cutting ductility.

The Vibro was a monoblock (crankcase) formed by the merger, in light alloy, with a blade holder arm

and a flat circular shape, supported by two movable guides which allowed the complete

exploitation of the blade.

The electromagnetic unit, incorporated in the crankcase, with an output of 150watt, acting on a

special crossbow which determined the reciprocating movement, without rotating parts and then

Wear and tear

It did not give any disturbance or unpleasant noise and mounted by common tunnel blades easily

available.

In numerous effects model makers and bricoleurs required an economical electric saw, handy

and easy to use for cutting various types of materials, so the electromagnetic cutter is Vibro

It was created for all amateur working or small businesses, to cut so

precise and fast woods of all essences.

More than 20,000 copies have been sold around the world, confirming its success and

its safety of use and nobody was able to copy this beautiful Fret maker.

 

I had sussed it out as to fitting blades and found ones I bought a while ago for a hand fret saw, different grades but no idea which is what as not marked

 

A typical Google translation! If you need any help understanding it, post the original and I'll translate it into English for you.

 

Can I stress the use of goggles (I know they're a PITA!), when using these things and keep fingers away from the blade! The "safety of use" must have relied on luck.

 

I found this discussion - again Google translate or I'll help if necessary:-

 

http://www.forumscuoladimodellismo.com/t3890-traforo-elettrico-aeropiccola-torino-mod-53

 

(I'd ignore the comment about it being useless!) There's an advert for the device from 1954 - price 15.000 lire

 

EDIT

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rhcy14Mj

Edited March 28, 2017 by Il Grifone

[bertiedog]

What you have is not a true fretsaw, the vibrosaw type is different in several respects.......

 

They operate on a transformer with a rubber mounted core supporting an iron core that pulls on the blade on each pulse cycle of the mains AC voltage at 50 cycles per second.

 

The top arm is rigid and the spring end allows the pull of the blade to cause a small movement downwards making the saw cut.

 

The problems are the high speed of the blade, and the short stroke. The bob  weight on the top helps cause a harmonic skip operation, where the cut speed is lower than the 50 CPS. It  also alters the total stroke.

 

The length of the blade movement is small compared to a true fretsaw, and course blades may have too few teeth for working on thin materials. It concentrates the wear on just a small area of the blades.

 

However there are advantages, they are quieter, with less shaking or snatch on the fast moving blades. They favour very fine work, and cut cleanly. They are said to be safer, in that human flesh in contact with the blades is just vibrated, not cut, with a longer stroke, as with a true fretsaw.

Do not test this theory at home!

 

So it will not be as powerful, but is precise, quiet, and needs finer teeth blades than usually used with fretsaws.

 

On setting the bob weight, you will have to experiment or consult the instructions, but it was usual to leave it near the back setting for most uses. The British version, the Vibrosaw, did not have the bob weight, just the whole arm sprung. Get the bob wrong and harmonic resonances start, and it will vibrate too much.

 

I own and use one in the British version, and it works well, but slower and reduced capacity, compared to an Axminster General purpose fret saw I have as well. The British one used to advertise it could be used on a tray on your lap...........!!!

 

The shot shows the Shapercraft Vibration saw, some what simpler than the Italian job, but far cheaper.

 

 

Stephen

Edited March 29, 2017 by bertiedog

[Siberian Snooper]

The general rule for cutting metal with a saw is at least 3 teeth in contact with the metal.

[hayfield]

That looks like one of the machines that Hobbies used to sell many years ago. IIRC the cheaper one was about £5 and they did a better one at £10*. There was also an optional electric motor, Thet used to have shops all over the country. When we lived in Bristol (50s), my favourite Saturday  expedition was to Salansons in Fairfax Street followed by a visit to Hobbies just down the road.

 

Thanks for the offers, there was also an English version (very 1950's style) in the internet, I managed to work out how to fit the blades (which entails taking the plate off, thankfully still has the wing nut  spanner .

[hayfield]

What you have is not a true fretsaw, the vibrosaw type is different in several respects.......

 

They operate on a transformer with a rubber mounted core supporting an iron core that pulls on the blade on each pulse cycle of the mains AC voltage at 50 cycles per second.

 

The top arm is rigid and the spring end allows the pull of the blade to cause a small movement downwards making the saw cut.

 

The problems are the high speed of the blade, and the short stroke. The bob  weight on the top helps cause a harmonic skip operation, where the cut speed is lower than the 50 CPS. It  also alters the total stroke.

 

The length of the blade movement is small compared to a true fretsaw, and course blades may have too few teeth for working on thin materials. It concentrates the wear on just a small area of the blades.

 

However there are advantages, they are quieter, with less shaking or snatch on the fast moving blades. They favour very fine work, and cut cleanly. They are said to be safer, in that human flesh in contact with the blades is just vibrated, not cut, with a longer stroke, as with a true fretsaw.

Do not test this theory at home!

 

So it will not be as powerful, but is precise, quiet, and needs finer teeth blades than usually used with fretsaws.

 

On setting the bob weight, you will have to experiment or consult the instructions, but it was usual to leave it near the back setting for most uses. The British version, the Vibrosaw, did not have the bob weight, just the whole arm sprung. Get the bob wrong and harmonic resonances start, and it will vibrate too much.

 

I own and use one in the British version, and it works well, but slower and reduced capacity, compared to an Axminster General purpose fret saw I have as well. The British one used to advertise it could be used on a tray on your lap...........!!!

 

The shot shows the Shapercraft Vibration saw, some what simpler than the Italian job, but far cheaper.

 

thumb-CIMG7324.jpg

 

Stephen

 

 

Stephen

 

Thank you again, according to the instructions has an electro magnet which works the blade. It is quite noisy and aggressive but works OK

[hayfield]

I found my blades, one set came with some other tools I bought s/h on Ebay another set I either bought from a retailer at a show or Ebay, both of which are of an unknown quality. I think the ones I bought are cheap ones

 

Tried out the saw last night and I first fitted one of the very fine blades, which snapped as soon as the machine was turned on. I then fitted the thickest blade and it worked very well on some scrap hard board. I was not too good with straight lines, better with curved ones though. I guess like all things practice will improve results

 

Found this like from an earlier reply   http://www.olsonsaw.net/shop/scroll-saw-blades/skip-tooth-blades-5in/   which shows what blades are used for which purpose

 

No use for it yet but will try a few more cuts to see if I can improve my technique

 

Is it the Scroll blades I require rather than fret saw blades 

 

Still a welcome inexpensive addition to the workshop

[Il Grifone]

Stephen

 

Thank you again, according to the instructions has an electro magnet which works the blade. It is quite noisy and aggressive but works OK

 

In the Italian thread, it is stated that it should be quiet and that noise is possibly due to the rubber seating having hardened (with photo). Kitchen sponge is suggested as a replacement.

[hayfield]

In the Italian thread, it is stated that it should be quiet and that noise is possibly due to the rubber seating having hardened (with photo). Kitchen sponge is suggested as a replacement.

 

 

David

 

Thank you, I will have a look at what's inside. It does vibrate am awful lot

[Fat Controller]

The mechanism sounds like a mains version of the 'motor' that Meccano used in their 'Circuit 24' slot cars.

[bertiedog]

The core is an electromagnet, in the form of a transformer core, one set of windings, no secondary, with the mains pulling the core at mains frequency, and driving the blade.

 

So at rest with no work it should sit there humming quietly, work applied to the blade will increase the noise.

But the whole mechanism is tuned like a musical instrument, and the bob weight on the top arm has to be set right, or it is out of tune and vibrates. The bob introduces hysteresis, or dampening, in to the blade moving, stopping it cutting at 50 CPS, and forcing it to follow a beat frequency that is lower. Moving the bob therefore controls the blade speed to a degree, and  also the aggression of the cut.

 

However it can get out of "tune" and cause noise, and jumpy cutting.

For the whole thing to work it needs to be 100% on the internal rubber or foam supports for the core.

I do not know how the internals of the Italian machine are arranged, but if foam was used then it can be replaced with similar foam.

 

If Sorbo or commercial rubber shocks are used, then it is vital the same ones are replaced. If it is on blocks of black Sorbo rubber, medium soft to a prod, then car engine silent block rubbers can provide the rubber to cut out and fit.

 

To quieten the whole thing, make a ply base and fit car silent blocks under the machine. or a heavy urethane rubber sheet.

 

The makers may of course still be in business and spares made.

 

A very good practice piece is to get a Map of the Counties of The British Isles, and cut out your own jigsaw on it glued to thin ply.........

[hayfield]

The core is an electromagnet, in the form of a transformer core, one set of windings, no secondary, with the mains pulling the core at mains frequency, and driving the blade.

 

So at rest with no work it should sit there humming quietly, work applied to the blade will increase the noise.

But the whole mechanism is tuned like a musical instrument, and the bob weight on the top arm has to be set right, or it is out of tune and vibrates. The bob introduces hysteresis, or dampening, in to the blade moving, stopping it cutting at 50 CPS, and forcing it to follow a beat frequency that is lower. Moving the bob therefore controls the blade speed to a degree, and  also the aggression of the cut.

 

However it can get out of "tune" and cause noise, and jumpy cutting.

For the whole thing to work it needs to be 100% on the internal rubber or foam supports for the core.

I do not know how the internals of the Italian machine are arranged, but if foam was used then it can be replaced with similar foam.

 

If Sorbo or commercial rubber shocks are used, then it is vital the same ones are replaced. If it is on blocks of black Sorbo rubber, medium soft to a prod, then car engine silent block rubbers can provide the rubber to cut out and fit.

 

To quieten the whole thing, make a ply base and fit car silent blocks under the machine. or a heavy urethane rubber sheet.

 

The makers may of course still be in business and spares made.

 

A very good practice piece is to get a Map of the Counties of The British Isles, and cut out your own jigsaw on it glued to thin ply.........

 

Thanks again

 

Mine is noisy and vibrating quite a bit. I wondered what the black weight was for on the arm. Will try moving it

 

 

old sponge core

 

 

A new one made of a couple of closed cell foam strips.

 

The blades are a bit longer by about 5 mm, causes problems when the table is set at its lowest point, as there are no teeth at that height. Just need to lift the table a bit. Also need to adjust the vibrating plate slightly to centre it a bit better.

 

Still learning how to use it as I go

 

Thanks again for all the help from everyone

[bertiedog]

I hate to add this, but you are finding out why the Vibrosaws where not such a good idea, and why the conventional layout may be best, but it is worth getting it to run, as many experts prefer the high blade speed, low noise, and safety(SIC).

I bought the Shapercraft and barely used it at first because I was unused to fretsaws in general. I then bought the Axminster, finding it suited bigger work, but still frustrating at times, breakages still occur

But how else in model railways are you going to be able to cut out intricate frames to a good finish. Fine toothed Swiss blades and brass are made for each other, it is the core of precision clockmaking.

 

Mind you in the end fret sawing is best by hand, slowly, on a jewellers V rest., fitted to a knee hole desk, with a supply of hot coffee for the breaks  in the work ( and blade breaks).

 

Best addition for the power fret saw is a decent LED spotlamp right on the blade as it cuts

 

Stephen.

[Il Grifone]

I seem to recall looking in the window of Aeropiccola once* when we lived in Turin, but that was many years ago and I don't think they are still there.

 

One or two of the Italian posts state that 'olio de gomito' (elbow grease) is to be preferred....

 

* Meaning to return... There were several other shops in Turin at the time which dealt in proper models (i.e. trains), but I think they have all gone now. One closed while we were there and sold off their stock at half price to the benefit of my Rivarossi collection.    &  

Edited March 30, 2017 by Il Grifone

[hayfield]

I do not know whAT I am doing wrong by the blade blunts itself very quickly