Third-Rail EMU Photos

[75B]

My favourite 2018 photo was of 375924 leading 375902 past Holmethorpe with a diverted London Charing Cross to Hastings service on the 26^th May 2018.

 

Keith

[stadman]

A couple of 4-SUB units stored at Andover (I think-can anyone confirm?), April 1984.

 

 

Saw them there as well. Maybe a BIL as well?

[Andy Louch]

Spotted more training runs on 'Plastioc Pigs' between Fratton and Bournemouth on 'Wessex Gen' so headed to Millbrook this afternoon to see what was the staple diet of 'Wessex Expresses'  30 years ago!

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Nice shot Andy.

 

Has Millbrook Container Terminal closed, as I can't see any overhead cranes in your picture?

[Andy Louch]

Nice shot Andy.

 

Has Millbrook Container Terminal closed, as I can't see any overhead cranes in your picture?

 

Thanks Peter. Speaking to another photographer today it seems it's presently 'mothballed' and only used when there's sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile. The cranes were stacked at the western end of the yard, out of shot. He also noted that there are 2 additional sidings being laid in the Western Docks so maybe that will increase the traffic/container handling within the port estate?

[talisman56]

Spotted more training runs on 'Plastioc Pigs' between Fratton and Bournemouth on 'Wessex Gen' so headed to Millbrook this afternoon to see what was the staple diet of 'Wessex Expresses'  30 years ago!

 

What a horrible livery...

[Andy Louch]

What a horrible livery...

 

Yes, agreed. Whilst waiting, another photographer said that he'd heard that SWR are not going to paint these units with the 'standard' SWR 'hatching' (as applied to a couple of 158's I've seen) as a cost cutting exercise. At least the paint/vinyls applied to the158's does break up the white a little!

[Gwiwer]

Yes, agreed. Whilst waiting, another photographer said that he'd heard that SWR are not going to paint these units with the 'standard' SWR 'hatching' (as applied to a couple of 158's I've seen) as a cost cutting exercise. At least the paint/vinyls applied to the158's does break up the white a little!

 

There is no "standard" SWR livery.  Almost every unit to have appeared is different in some detail.

 

Among the diesel units of which a significant number has now been attended to (though probably fewer than 1/4 of the total) only the early ones have the full metallic striped livery applied by vinyl overlay.  One unit has dark metallic stripes and plain light grey paint in a half : half style.  The rest are painted rather than having vinyl applied and the light grey is very much lighter than on the vinyls.  The dark paint shade is less blue than the vinyls but approximately the same depth of colour.  When fresh the appearance is good even if the choice of colours is, to my mind, not so.  However both paint and vinyls are weathering very quickly especially with the prominent diesel exhaust emerging at roof level and darkening the light grey paint finish within hours of application.

 

Only two in-traffic electric units have yet been dealt with.  444040 - the launch unit - and 450111 although a rapid program of re-seating the 450s with dark blue instead of red seats is under way and the first few internally reconfigured units have re-entered traffic with 450100 being the first.  In these first class is removed from the centre to a small six-seat area over the leading-end bogie similar to SWR sisters the 458s and many Electrostar units.  This reduces first class seating somewhat but provides a few more standard seats.  It appears no attempt is being made to restore the seating on the former high-capacity (ex-450/5) units to its previous level.  These continue to offer slightly fewer seats with a larger standing area though are freely mixed with the rest of the type and no longer confined (officially) to Reading and Hounslow line services.  Both 444040 and 450111 have full metallic striped vinyls applied.

 

The 442s are also being painted in the two-tone grey scheme but with detail differences.

 

Among differences noted across the fleet to date are :

- First class identifier lines white, yellow or absent altogether;

- Skirt with or without yellow band and yellow band of differing width and position

- First class entrance doorway surrounded in yellow or in sky blue strip or unmarked

- Disabled entrance doorway surrounded in sky blue or unmarked

- Body of unit in metallic vinyls with the darker colour being variously grey, charcoal or blue

- Body of unit painted in two shades of grey both different from the vinyls

- Body of unit in dark metallic vinyl / pale painted grey

- Location of unit number beneath driver's windows only on diesel units but above all four end windows on electric units

- Some units fitted with new dark blue seating which appears black from a distance

- Some class 450 units emerging with first class saloon relocated and adjusted seating configuration

 

What next?  

 

SWR has appeared to be a franchise in desperate need of cash from Day One.  The fact that it took months to even re-brand the rolling stock (which should have been done at handover) with SWR stickers over SWT branding suggests indecision and absence of funding.  Stations are still wearing Stagecoach-style name boards in dark blue although the many sponsorship deals SWT struck with local businesses enabling them to promote themselves on a subsidiary board (such as Strawberry Hill - Home of St. Mary's University) have gone and the lower panels simply over-stuck with plain white vinyl.  Staff uniforms continue to be a hotch-potch of old and new and there seems little intent on promoting a corporate image with information systems and poster frames.

 

The 442s were due to re-enter traffic last month with two units (one train) covering a single duty initially between Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo.  As the timetable changes SWR wished to bring about have been blocked by the DfT for various reasons - including the May 2018 debacle which actually didn't effect SWR and a huge volume of negative feedback on the plans which did - they are not actually needed for now.  Driver training can continue and the sets will appear in traffic at some future time.

[Andy Louch]

There is no "standard" SWR livery.  Almost every unit to have appeared is different in some detail.

 

Among the diesel units of which a significant number has now been attended to (though probably fewer than 1/4 of the total) only the early ones have the full metallic striped livery applied by vinyl overlay.  One unit has dark metallic stripes and plain light grey paint in a half : half style.  The rest are painted rather than having vinyl applied and the light grey is very much lighter than on the vinyls.  The dark paint shade is less blue than the vinyls but approximately the same depth of colour.  When fresh the appearance is good even if the choice of colours is, to my mind, not so.  However both paint and vinyls are weathering very quickly especially with the prominent diesel exhaust emerging at roof level and darkening the light grey paint finish within hours of application.

 

Only two in-traffic electric units have yet been dealt with.  444040 - the launch unit - and 450111 although a rapid program of re-seating the 450s with dark blue instead of red seats is under way and the first few internally reconfigured units have re-entered traffic with 450100 being the first.  In these first class is removed from the centre to a small six-seat area over the leading-end bogie similar to SWR sisters the 458s and many Electrostar units.  This reduces first class seating somewhat but provides a few more standard seats.  It appears no attempt is being made to restore the seating on the former high-capacity (ex-450/5) units to its previous level.  These continue to offer slightly fewer seats with a larger standing area though are freely mixed with the rest of the type and no longer confined (officially) to Reading and Hounslow line services.  Both 444040 and 450111 have full metallic striped vinyls applied.

 

The 442s are also being painted in the two-tone grey scheme but with detail differences.

 

Among differences noted across the fleet to date are :

- First class identifier lines white, yellow or absent altogether;

- Skirt with or without yellow band and yellow band of differing width and position

- First class entrance doorway surrounded in yellow or in sky blue strip or unmarked

- Disabled entrance doorway surrounded in sky blue or unmarked

- Body of unit in metallic vinyls with the darker colour being variously grey, charcoal or blue

- Body of unit painted in two shades of grey both different from the vinyls

- Body of unit in dark metallic vinyl / pale painted grey

- Location of unit number beneath driver's windows only on diesel units but above all four end windows on electric units

- Some units fitted with new dark blue seating which appears black from a distance

- Some class 450 units emerging with first class saloon relocated and adjusted seating configuration

 

What next?  

 

SWR has appeared to be a franchise in desperate need of cash from Day One.  The fact that it took months to even re-brand the rolling stock (which should have been done at handover) with SWR stickers over SWT branding suggests indecision and absence of funding.  Stations are still wearing Stagecoach-style name boards in dark blue although the many sponsorship deals SWT struck with local businesses enabling them to promote themselves on a subsidiary board (such as Strawberry Hill - Home of St. Mary's University) have gone and the lower panels simply over-stuck with plain white vinyl.  Staff uniforms continue to be a hotch-potch of old and new and there seems little intent on promoting a corporate image with information systems and poster frames.

 

The 442s were due to re-enter traffic last month with two units (one train) covering a single duty initially between Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo.  As the timetable changes SWR wished to bring about have been blocked by the DfT for various reasons - including the May 2018 debacle which actually didn't effect SWR and a huge volume of negative feedback on the plans which did - they are not actually needed for now.  Driver training can continue and the sets will appear in traffic at some future time.

 

Hi Gwiwer, very many thanks for such a comprehensive post. Interesting to note that the franchise seems to be struggling financially resulting in the, as you note, somewhat haphazard mixture of styles and liveries across the franchise!

i also spoke to a driver yesterday who suggested that the 442's might struggle with some of the climbs on the Portsmouth direct route which was pointed out to SWR before the refurbishment of the units started. If I remember correctly, they were only used on the SW routes to Bournemouth and Weymouth in their first incarnation, perhaps for this reason? 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

 

 

The 442s were due to re-enter traffic last month with two units (one train) covering a single duty initially between Portsmouth Harbour and Waterloo.  As the timetable changes SWR wished to bring about have been blocked by the DfT for various reasons - including the May 2018 debacle which actually didn't effect SWR and a huge volume of negative feedback on the plans which did - they are not actually needed for now.  Driver training can continue and the sets will appear in traffic at some future time.

 

If truth were told, I think SWR were rather relieved that the December timetable change didn't take place.

[John M Upton]

In my opinion the 442s I have seen in SWR livery the supposed light grey is most definitely white...

[Mike Storey]

Thanks Peter. Speaking to another photographer today it seems it's presently 'mothballed' and only used when there's sufficient traffic to make it worthwhile. The cranes were stacked at the western end of the yard, out of shot. He also noted that there are 2 additional sidings being laid in the Western Docks so maybe that will increase the traffic/container handling within the port estate?

 

Millbrook remains a wagon storage and maintenance facility (according to FL). There has been a long game played out between DB (who use, and part own/lease the Western Docks) and FL who use, and part own, the Maritime Docks). DB had failed to invest in the Western Docks over 15 years and demanded use of Maritime, which FL successfully refused via appeal through the ORR, as they had invested despite a higher transfer cost per container. The investment, at last, in Western Docks, is the result. But Millbrook was offered by FL to DB as an alternative to Maritime, an offer they never took up. FL cannot shunt on to the main line at Millbrook, and thus cannot achieve the 775m max train length now permitted, if they use it. 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

I've seen the new livery close-up, and I thought it was definitely a very, very light grey, rather than white.

[Gwiwer]

 

 

a driver yesterday who suggested that the 442's might struggle with some of the climbs on the Portsmouth direct route

 

A case of wait and see in my book.  They coped admirably with the ruling 1:264 gradients of the Brighton main line which admittedly is generally much straighter than the Pompey Direct and therefore creates less drag.

[DY444]

Hi Gwiwer, very many thanks for such a comprehensive post. Interesting to note that the franchise seems to be struggling financially resulting in the, as you note, somewhat haphazard mixture of styles and liveries across the franchise!

i also spoke to a driver yesterday who suggested that the 442's might struggle with some of the climbs on the Portsmouth direct route which was pointed out to SWR before the refurbishment of the units started. If I remember correctly, they were only used on the SW routes to Bournemouth and Weymouth in their first incarnation, perhaps for this reason? 

 

442s worked to Portsmouth in NSE days.

[DY444]

A case of wait and see in my book.  They coped admirably with the ruling 1:264 gradients of the Brighton main line which admittedly is generally much straighter than the Pompey Direct and therefore creates less drag.

 

It's also a significantly easier grade than those on the Portsmouth Direct.  The climbs to Haslemere and Buriton Tunnel both have stretches of 1 in 80.

[Gwiwer]

I've seen the new livery close-up, and I thought it was definitely a very, very light grey, rather than white.

Just to be sure I had a good look at a 159 today. The paint is definitely a very light grey and not white.

[Claude_Dreyfus]

So definitely not white....just very very very light grey. Reminds me of the Father Ted line about priest's socks. They're black; all other socks may look black, but they are actually very very very dark blue...

[Northmoor]

It's also a significantly easier grade than those on the Portsmouth Direct.  The climbs to Haslemere and Buriton Tunnel both have stretches of 1 in 80.

Erm, aren't the 442s actually 4-REPs in Mk3 bodies and running gear? 

And weren't 4-REPs, until the APT was built, the most powerful EMUs in Britain?

And didn't they used to run in 4-REP+4TC+4TC mode to Bournemouth, so about half the power-to-weight ratio?

 

Sorry, I think they're worryin' about nothin'.

[rodent279]

As far as I know and I might be incorrect so I am sure I may well be corrected but the 442s were basicly mk3 coaches + their chassis and a full bogie change.

 

The 3rd coach is the 1 where all the main equipment is located and needed a lot of strengthening work done to cope with the extra weight.

 

As far as the 4REPS were concerned, only the electrical gear and possibly the motors were used from those units.

I'm pretty sure the motors were re-used in the 442's, but they may have been re-wound.

There's not a lot else to a relatively simple EMU like a REP other than the control gear and the motors, so if those are being re-used then effectively a 442 is a REP in a MK3.

[DY444]

Erm, aren't the 442s actually 4-REPs in Mk3 bodies and running gear? 

And weren't 4-REPs, until the APT was built, the most powerful EMUs in Britain?

And didn't they used to run in 4-REP+4TC+4TC mode to Bournemouth, so about half the power-to-weight ratio?

 

Sorry, I think they're worryin' about nothin'.

 

Nope.  442 is half a REP in terms of traction output.

 

4REPs had two motor coaches with 4 x EE546 traction motors on each.  A 442 only has one motor coach with 4 x EE546 traction motors.  EE546 has a continuous rating of 400hp.

 

REP + 8TC = 437 tons.  7.3 hp/ton

442 = 200 tons.  8 hp/ton

 

So 442 slightly better but not double.

 

I'm pretty sure the motors were re-used in the 442's, but they may have been re-wound.

There's not a lot else to a relatively simple EMU like a REP other than the control gear and the motors, so if those are being re-used then effectively a 442 is a REP in a MK3.

 

Only the motors were re-used in the end. 

 

Half a REP in a 442.  See above.

 

The REPs were much more complex than the outwardly similar 63 stock (VEPs, CIGs). 

 

Each REP motor coach had two sets of control gear with two motors controlled by each, there were 4 shoe beams on each motor coach and each shoe beam carried two shoes with one connected to each power circuit.  Each set of control gear on one motor coach was paired with one on the other motor coach.  This arrangement ensured that a single pickup shoe and power circuit could only ever feed a maximum of 4 of the 8 traction motors.

 

The REPs also had an automatic wheel slip protection system which was not found on the 63 stock.

Edited January 12, 2019 by DY444

[Rivercider]

I never took many EMU photos on the Southern, but here are two REP/4TC combos at Southampton.

 

A Waterloo to Bournemouth/Weymouth service arrives at Southampton formed by 4TC sets 409 and 410 propelled by REP 3010, 4/11/81.

 

REP 3011 departs from Southampton on a Waterloo to Weymouth working with 4TC sets 415 and 403, 4/11/81

 

cheers

[royaloak]

442s worked to Portsmouth in NSE days.

When there were less fewer trains, easier timetabling and less stops.

[Mike Storey]

I never took many EMU photos on the Southern, but here are two REP/4TC combos at Southampton.

 

scan0037.jpg

A Waterloo to Bournemouth/Weymouth service arrives at Southampton formed by 4TC sets 409 and 410 propelled by REP 3010, 4/11/81.

 

scan0034.jpg

REP 3011 departs from Southampton on a Waterloo to Weymouth working with 4TC sets 415 and 403, 4/11/81

 

cheers

 

Some lovely, unusually clear infrastructure included in these pics - thank you. 

[talisman56]

Some lovely, unusually clear infrastructure included in these pics - thank you. 

 

Down to the detail like the wonky track circuit indicator and the footbridge which still has the steam exhaust deflectors fitted...