David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) I acquired a Brassmasters Black 5 from the estate of one of our club members Phil Baxendale who passed away a few months ago. It runs very well and seems to be a short firebox vertical throatplate, domeless boiler with a riveted tender. As I know very little about things LMS and plan to finish it off in a BR livery for use on Aylesbury, I need some numbers and info as I want to match the condition of the loco modelled to a suitable number. Help please David Edited September 2, 2017 by David Bigcheeseplant 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Anything between 45000 and 45224 for a short firebox Five, albeit a few were modified to take the LFB boiler later on. Your photo is very dark, but I will go into my guides to see if any numbers match the condition. I didn't know Phil had passed away. Very sad. He was a good laugh, and he built quite a few Princesses.... Edited September 2, 2017 by Horsetan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 From memory there weren't that many in the number series Horse mentioned allocated to the GC, most seemed to be from 453xx onwards or the 44xxx range. I'm no expert on black 5s but there are many variations so photos would be your best bet if possible. I'm away from home so can't check books I'm afraid but I'm sure someone will be along soon with the relevant information Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold RFS Posted September 2, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) The BR Database website will give you detailed allocations of all the black 5s. http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=446003&type=S&page=alloc Edited September 2, 2017 by RFS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 Fortunately the wiki page for Black Fives is one of the best. It has all the details for which of the straight throatplate locomotives were converted to sloping throatplate. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LMS_Stanier_Class_5_4-6-0 Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Black 5 orders started with no 5000 (later 45000) and worked up to 45499 (?) then backwards in batches from 4999 (44999) Which is why 45000 - 45224 were the early "Short Firebox" / Sloping throatplate boilers. These sloping throatplate boilers were supposed to be the Bees Knees in the 1930s but it does not seem to have made much difference and the best performances of the Jubilees were by the straight throatplate version, so snake oil sales springs to mind... 5020 was the first in service, Crewe were too busy watching their shimmering black paint finish dry on 5000-19 while I think it was Vulcan Foundry got their finger out and delivered 5020 etc. Edited September 2, 2017 by DavidCBroad Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 ...., I need some numbers and info as I want to match the condition of the loco modelled to a suitable number..... PM sent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cb900f Posted September 2, 2017 Share Posted September 2, 2017 You also need to replace the tall chimney with a short chimney. Pete Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 2, 2017 Author Share Posted September 2, 2017 I thought I had found a match in 45215 which I had photos of on the GC then noticed the feedpipes to the top feed were under the cladding while the model has them on the outside of the cladding and not I have to look at chimney heights! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caley739 Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 The top feed pipe outside the boiler cladding only featured on as built condition to the first Vulcan Foundry lot # 5020-5069 delivered August 1934 - January 1935. By BR days this had changed to standard inside the cladding condition. It probably disappeared at the first boiler change in 1936/7 for this batch. Thus your engine could only accurately be in LMS livery. Tom Robertson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 3, 2017 Author Share Posted September 3, 2017 Looks like I need to remove the pipes and change the chimney at least to get it to a BR condition, Brassmasters dont seem to have downloadable instructions on their website which would help me. I don't want to do to much to the model but if I can either carve off the pipes or get a replacement resin boiler, which means I could go for a domed boiler, which I guess would open my number choices up a bit too. Although 45215 still seems a front runner at the moment as I have now found three photos on the G.C. from the late 1950s Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 ....get a replacement resin boiler, ... You should be able to. £20 the last time I asked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 (edited) Black Fives were a minefield for modellers once boiler changes and flush/rivetted/welded Tenders started to be exchanged on works visits. Pipes under cladding, pipes on top, tall chimneys, short chimneys, frame conversions to take sloping throatplate boilers and so on. By BR days you definitely need photos of the loco you intend representing. 'Stanier 4-6-0's' (David & Charles) of 1977 is a useful book although it is likely more up to date books have since been published. Edited September 3, 2017 by coachmann Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted September 3, 2017 Share Posted September 3, 2017 Yes. The RCTS, Wild Swan and Irwell have all published modern multi-volume histories on the Black Fives This is also a good book on the details and differences which is suitable for modellers. Shop around as you can probably get it for much cheaper. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanier-4-6-0-Class-Locomotives-Detail/dp/0711030146/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1504480123&sr=8-3&keywords=locomotives+in+detail Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 (edited) Looks like I need to remove the pipes and change the chimney at least to get it to a BR condition, Brassmasters dont seem to have downloadable instructions on their website which would help me. I don't want to do to much to the model but if I can either carve off the pipes or get a replacement resin boiler, which means I could go for a domed boiler, which I guess would open my number choices up a bit too. Although 45215 still seems a front runner at the moment as I have now found three photos on the G.C. from the late 1950s Quite frankly just leave as is, number it as one of the few English allocated available. To be honest, all the times ( innumerable) I visited Willesden shed, in the early 1960's, there were many visiting locos from obscure sheds up north, and wondered how the hell they got there. I know Willesden was only used as the southern end depot for the GC line from Jan to Sept 1965, but who's gonna know ? Edited September 4, 2017 by bike2steam Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 I have the Wild Swan books but it takes quite a bit of time to work out the variations and changes contained in the books. I am in no rush to finish the model as there are plenty of other models I need to do first but I like to ensure models have numbers and are correct to the livery, rather than apply a number that does not match the model, I may be acquiring a couple more of Phil's Black 5s one is numbered 4986 so will see if that one fits into what I require. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 4986, how fortunate for you, it spent most of it's life, after WW2, towing a coal-weighing tender, and spent a good part of it's life at Millhouses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted September 4, 2017 Author Share Posted September 4, 2017 4986 does come with a self weighing tender. I don't really want to mess too much with Phil's as he was a good friend hence I wanted an easy path to completing these models without distracting the work that Phil did. These engines run really well and have Ultrascale wheels in most cases. Some locos need painting others need minor work to finish them off but do run. Phil was the team leader on the Aylesbury project so think it is important some of his locos get to run on the layout. David 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
great central Posted September 4, 2017 Share Posted September 4, 2017 Maybe swap tender and a simple renumber for 4986 to 4984? Spent quite a long time on the GC and worked the last Nottingham -Marylebone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 Just bumping the thread with a similar issue, my own Black 5, acquired as built and destined to replicate one of the very few domeless examples that ran on the SDJR. I did have some concerns about buying a kitbuilt loco but this DJH example runs perfectly, it merely needs renumbering as 45056 (ex 71G Bath Green Park), some lining and a large, early British Railways lion emblem. The tender was swapped for a welded version when the loco received AWS equipment sometime in the 50s. 45056 Euston 1960 and 45056 Manchester Exchange 1960s pse note the AWS air reservoir on the footplate and AWS plate below the buffer beam. These would not have been fitted until later in the 50s. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 Just a superficial observation, be very careful with the size of the cabside numbers. Locos repaired at St Rollox works in Glasgow (ex Caledonian works) after repainting had 10" thicker cabside numbers instead of the standard BR numbers which were 8" high. Very few Scottish based layouts I have seen have locos with these larger numbers. I spent my train spotting days in the 1950s on the Midland & WCML. When we saw a loco with the 10" high cab side numerals we all cheered & shouted that it must be a 'cop' before we found out what it was! Oh happy days. Peter 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted March 12, 2020 Share Posted March 12, 2020 On 10/03/2020 at 11:17, Jack Benson said: Just bumping the thread with a similar issue, my own Black 5, acquired as built and destined to replicate one of the very few domeless examples that ran on the SDJR. I did have some concerns about buying a kitbuilt loco but this DJH example runs perfectly, it merely needs renumbering as 45056 (ex 71G Bath Green Park), some lining and a large, early British Railways lion emblem. The tender was swapped for a welded version when the loco received AWS equipment sometime in the 50s. 45056 Euston 1960 and 45056 Manchester Exchange 1960s pse note the AWS air reservoir on the footplate and AWS plate below the buffer beam. These would not have been fitted until later in the 50s. Cheers Black 5s are difficult to get right. Unlike later GWR 4-6-0 Locos the deep cab running plate does not line up with the tender running plate The top edge of the deep cab running plate lines up with the very thin tender running plate which sort of jars visually while the tender and loco steps should be broadly in line. Worst issue with LMS locos is they ran with cab doors shut and look wrong (to me) running with cab doors open. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted April 24, 2020 Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) A final bump 45056 has been completed as the prototype was allocated to Bath Green Park in the early 50s and coupled to a riveted tender. Further examination revealed that the model is not DJH but Brassmasters as confirmed by the builder, John Brighton, now retired, of Steamline, Sheffield. Livery variations abound, unforunately an image of 45056 on the SDJR has not been found only multiple images from the mid 60s, therefore a best guess until proved wrong. Cheers Edited April 30, 2020 by Jack Benson Poor editing Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jack Benson Posted August 12, 2020 Share Posted August 12, 2020 Two rather better images of 45056 as one of dome less examples allocated to BGP in the early 50s. The rather poorly tender has been rebuilt as the internal chassis was prone to warp. The remainder of the model is a tribute to Brassmasters. Cheers and Stay Safe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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