Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[Satan's Goldfish]

On 18/03/2021 at 19:25, LNER4479 said:

But wiring's not particularly interesting or photogenic so let's run some trains!

 

Hmmmmmm D-type... We have very different fetishes  

 

 

 

I do enjoy seeing trains run too though! Not caught up with the thread in a while, looks good and very inspiring still. I'll have to watch the video later and feel guilty for not making more progress on my layout  

[Compound2632]

On 15/03/2021 at 09:56, bbishop said:

Langridge also designed the bottom half of the Austin Sevens.  He used the 4F bearings and argues in his book that the problems were caused by poor quality oil.  He got that wrong! 

 

No, his diagnosis was correct.

[drmditch]

11 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

No, his diagnosis was correct.

Could you provide more detail?
Also the reference to the book.
(I must have missed it somewhere above.)

[Compound2632]

5 minutes ago, drmditch said:

Could you provide more detail?
Also the reference to the book.
(I must have missed it somewhere above.)

 

I don't have, and have never read, Langridge's book. I was merely saying that he was correct to attribute problems with the 4F axleboxes to inappropriate lubrication, as has been analysed by Adrian Tester, A Defence of the Midland/LMS Class 4 0-6-0 (1911). The Derby drawing office certainly understood axlebox lubrication - lubricants had been R.M. Deeley's special subject. Problems arose when the LMS changed the formula of the standard lubricant (cost being a consideration, I believe). The issue was identified and remedied but not without it entering enthusiasts' mythology, thanks to the writings of ex-LMS personnel with axes to grind.

 

I think we've seen quite enough in recent years to show that people will generally prefer lurid fantasy to sober fact.

[LNER4479]

No trains this evening, I'm afraid; rather a report on electrical work and an invitation to comment on control panel design (for those whose boats are floated by such things).

 

Work is complete - for now - at 'grand junction' in terms of reconfiguring the wiring for remote operation.

 

A closer look, showing wiring brought to these terminal blocks. The relay panel deals with the frog switching, leaving the other half of double micro-switches on the points to deal with point indication - these wires are fed straight to the terminal blocks for communication to the control panel. Yet again, another good 'ol H&M product provides power for now, the direct 16vAC and 12vDC outputs being perfect for the CDU and relay panel power inputs respectively.

 

Approx 15 feet away, here's the Bog Junction control panel starting to take shape. The Gaugemaster D panel unit is at the heart of the structure; above this I've mounted what is intended as a miniature instrument shelf.

 

And these views show a mock up to give a more complete idea. The idea is that all this will be behind the backscene, running at a relatively modest height of 9ins above baseboard level. On the equipment shelf will be 7 miniature block bell indicators for communication with the next section along the various routes. By some distance, this will be the most complex control position on the layout in terms of communication with other boxes.

 

Below the instrument shelf is the track diagram, which will be illuminated to show what routes are set - at the right hand end are the points at Grand Junction which will be the first to be illuminated, using the wiring already installed.

To the left of the diagram goes the lever frame (on order) for Bog Junction. Beneath will be the bank of relays which will deal with the logic. On the opposite (right hand) side of the controller are the terminals for all the incoming wiring. As there is likely to be a lot(!) I've included provision for approx 100 - you can see the first bank being the other end of the connections from 'grand junction'.

The idea is that the dial indicator switches on the block indicators, as well as giving the 'line clear' and 'train on line' indications, will do clever things via the relay panels to prove the route (in conjunction with the locking information from the lever frame) and connect up power to the track.

 

Any comments / observations gratefully received. I tend to be a bit ill-disciplined when it comes to wiring and control systems - not so much 'make it up as I go along'; more a case of gradual evolution as I start to do bits and the thing starts to crystallise in my mind. But I do want it to be based on traditional mechanical signalling and the use of block instruments does have considerable appeal to me. There is an early opportunity to prototype that aspect by installing a corresponding clock instrument at Garsdale.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by LNER4479

[Clive Mortimore]

22 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

No trains this evening, I'm afraid; rather a report on electrical work and an invitation to comment on control panel design (for those whose boats are floated by such things).

 

Work is complete - for now - at 'grand junction' in terms of reconfiguring the wiring for remote operation.

 

A closer look, showing wiring brought to these terminal blocks. The relay panel deals with the frog switching, leaving the other half of double micro-switches on the points to deal with point indication - these wires are fed straight to the terminal blocks for communication to the control panel. Yet again, another good 'ol H&M product provides power for now, the direct 16vAC and 12vDC outputs being perfect for the CDU and relay panel power inputs respectively.

 

Approx 15 feet away, here's the Bog Junction control panel starting to take shape. The Gaugemaster D panel unit is at the heart of the structure; above this I've mounted what is intended as a miniature instrument shelf.

 

And these views show a mock up to give a more complete idea. The idea is that all this will be behind the backscene, running at a relatively modest height of 9ins above baseboard level. On the equipment shelf will be 7 miniature block bell indicators for communication with the next section along the various routes. By some distance, this will be the most complex control position on the layout in terms of communication with other boxes.

 

Below the instrument shelf is the track diagram, which will be illuminated to show what routes are set - at the right hand end are the points at Grand Junction which will be the first to be illuminated, using the wiring already installed.

To the left of the diagram goes the lever frame (on order) for Bog Junction. Beneath will be the bank of relays which will deal with the logic. On the opposite (right hand) side of the controller are the terminals for all the incoming wiring. As there is likely to be a lot(!) I've included provision for approx 100 - you can see the first bank being the other end of the connections from 'grand junction'.

The idea is that the dial indicator switches on the block indicators, as well as giving the 'line clear' and 'train on line' indications, will do clever things via the relay panels to prove the route (in conjunction with the locking information from the lever frame) and connect up power to the track.

 

Any comments / observations gratefully received. I tend to be a bit ill-disciplined when it comes to wiring and control systems - not so much 'make it up as I go along'; more a case of gradual evolution as I start to do bits and the thing starts to crystallise in my mind. But I do want it to be based on traditional mechanical signalling and the use of block instruments does have considerable appeal to me. There is an early opportunity to prototype that aspect by installing a corresponding clock instrument at Garsdale.

 

Hold on, block instruments?

 

Will there be one in the tea boy's kitchen to tell him when the great unwashed want a cuppa or will the tea boy have to rely on verbal and hand signal abuse?

[Gibbo675]

44 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

No trains this evening, I'm afraid; rather a report on electrical work and an invitation to comment on control panel design (for those whose boats are floated by such things).

 

Work is complete - for now - at 'grand junction' in terms of reconfiguring the wiring for remote operation.

 

A closer look, showing wiring brought to these terminal blocks. The relay panel deals with the frog switching, leaving the other half of double micro-switches on the points to deal with point indication - these wires are fed straight to the terminal blocks for communication to the control panel. Yet again, another good 'ol H&M product provides power for now, the direct 16vAC and 12vDC outputs being perfect for the CDU and relay panel power inputs respectively.

 

Approx 15 feet away, here's the Bog Junction control panel starting to take shape. The Gaugemaster D panel unit is at the heart of the structure; above this I've mounted what is intended as a miniature instrument shelf.

 

And these views show a mock up to give a more complete idea. The idea is that all this will be behind the backscene, running at a relatively modest height of 9ins above baseboard level. On the equipment shelf will be 7 miniature block bell indicators for communication with the next section along the various routes. By some distance, this will be the most complex control position on the layout in terms of communication with other boxes.

 

Below the instrument shelf is the track diagram, which will be illuminated to show what routes are set - at the right hand end are the points at Grand Junction which will be the first to be illuminated, using the wiring already installed.

To the left of the diagram goes the lever frame (on order) for Bog Junction. Beneath will be the bank of relays which will deal with the logic. On the opposite (right hand) side of the controller are the terminals for all the incoming wiring. As there is likely to be a lot(!) I've included provision for approx 100 - you can see the first bank being the other end of the connections from 'grand junction'.

The idea is that the dial indicator switches on the block indicators, as well as giving the 'line clear' and 'train on line' indications, will do clever things via the relay panels to prove the route (in conjunction with the locking information from the lever frame) and connect up power to the track.

 

Any comments / observations gratefully received. I tend to be a bit ill-disciplined when it comes to wiring and control systems - not so much 'make it up as I go along'; more a case of gradual evolution as I start to do bits and the thing starts to crystallise in my mind. But I do want it to be based on traditional mechanical signalling and the use of block instruments does have considerable appeal to me. There is an early opportunity to prototype that aspect by installing a corresponding clock instrument at Garsdale.

 

Hi There,

 

What you need is a set of Triang RT268's in there and why not go mad on foggy days with an RT267.

 

Gibbo.

[St Enodoc]

3 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

No trains this evening, I'm afraid; rather a report on electrical work and an invitation to comment on control panel design (for those whose boats are floated by such things).

 

Work is complete - for now - at 'grand junction' in terms of reconfiguring the wiring for remote operation.

 

A closer look, showing wiring brought to these terminal blocks. The relay panel deals with the frog switching, leaving the other half of double micro-switches on the points to deal with point indication - these wires are fed straight to the terminal blocks for communication to the control panel. Yet again, another good 'ol H&M product provides power for now, the direct 16vAC and 12vDC outputs being perfect for the CDU and relay panel power inputs respectively.

 

Approx 15 feet away, here's the Bog Junction control panel starting to take shape. The Gaugemaster D panel unit is at the heart of the structure; above this I've mounted what is intended as a miniature instrument shelf.

 

And these views show a mock up to give a more complete idea. The idea is that all this will be behind the backscene, running at a relatively modest height of 9ins above baseboard level. On the equipment shelf will be 7 miniature block bell indicators for communication with the next section along the various routes. By some distance, this will be the most complex control position on the layout in terms of communication with other boxes.

 

Below the instrument shelf is the track diagram, which will be illuminated to show what routes are set - at the right hand end are the points at Grand Junction which will be the first to be illuminated, using the wiring already installed.

To the left of the diagram goes the lever frame (on order) for Bog Junction. Beneath will be the bank of relays which will deal with the logic. On the opposite (right hand) side of the controller are the terminals for all the incoming wiring. As there is likely to be a lot(!) I've included provision for approx 100 - you can see the first bank being the other end of the connections from 'grand junction'.

The idea is that the dial indicator switches on the block indicators, as well as giving the 'line clear' and 'train on line' indications, will do clever things via the relay panels to prove the route (in conjunction with the locking information from the lever frame) and connect up power to the track.

 

Any comments / observations gratefully received. I tend to be a bit ill-disciplined when it comes to wiring and control systems - not so much 'make it up as I go along'; more a case of gradual evolution as I start to do bits and the thing starts to crystallise in my mind. But I do want it to be based on traditional mechanical signalling and the use of block instruments does have considerable appeal to me. There is an early opportunity to prototype that aspect by installing a corresponding clock instrument at Garsdale.

 

Looks good Graham. I'll just make one comment - how about reversing the positions of the block shelf and diagram? Then the block instruments will be closer to the controller and lever frame, so you won't have to wave your arms around so much, while the illuminated diagram will be closer to your eye line.

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

I think you need advice from Rick Wakeman.

 

Mike.

[Barry O]

7 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hold on, block instruments?

 

Will there be one in the tea boy's kitchen to tell him when the great unwashed want a cuppa or will the tea boy have to rely on verbal and hand signal abuse?

No clive, the tea boy will have a small prod which can provide a 240V jab to get the supplies ready

 

Baz

[New Haven Neil]

Oh oh, I feel electrocution coming on....

[LNER4479]

8 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hold on, block instruments?

 

Will there be one in the tea boy's kitchen to tell him when the great unwashed want a cuppa or will the tea boy have to rely on verbal and hand signal abuse?

All control positions will be fitted with a red emergency TEA! button ...

[LNER4479]

5 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Looks good Graham. I'll just make one comment - how about reversing the positions of the block shelf and diagram? Then the block instruments will be closer to the controller and lever frame, so you won't have to wave your arms around so much, while the illuminated diagram will be closer to your eye line.

That would be nice; unfortunately, I have to leave space for the lever frame and that has to go to the left hand side of where the track diagram currently is. It will be a true mechanical frame, ie direct mechanical connection to points and signals. I am slightly stuck awaiting its arrival to be sure of exact size and position.

 

Also, although miniature, I need to make the block instruments as large as I can as they will have a rotating switch, bell tapper and indicator lights (dials would be nice!) all in a small space. I just don't think there would be enough room for them all where the diagram currently is.

 

It's probably the least satisfactory aspect of the arrangement but overall it doesn't feel too bad and I do like the feel of the instrument shelf above the lever frame (left hand side).

 

Thanks for providing at least one constructive suggestion (although I never mind a bit of humour!)

[Gibbo675]

38 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

All control positions will be fitted with a red emergency TEA! button ...

Just get one of these:

 

 

Gibbo.

[LNER4479]

9 hours ago, Gibbo675 said:

Hi There,

 

What you need is a set of Triang RT268's in there and why not go mad on foggy days with an RT267.

 

Gibbo.

Good grief - I had no idea such things existed!

 

The RT268 sets look absolutely amazing. I would genuinely be interested in acquiring a set (or two) for use on the layout ... although they appear hard to come by and command a price to match.

 

Probably not for the current control panel but another box where there's a bit more room would be great.

[Denbridge]

26 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

Good grief - I had no idea such things existed!

 

The RT268 sets look absolutely amazing. I would genuinely be interested in acquiring a set (or two) for use on the layout ... although they appear hard to come by and command a price to match.

 

Probably not for the current control panel but another box where there's a bit more room would be great.

I have a set of these packed away somewhere. I'll dig them out and decide if I want to dispose of them. In truth, I doubt very much if I will ever use them.

[LNER4479]

14 minutes ago, Denbridge said:

I have a set of these packed away somewhere. I'll dig them out and decide if I want to dispose of them. In truth, I doubt very much if I will ever use them.

Well, that would be wonderful if you did decide to part with them ... we'll set up a PM discussion if so.

[jwealleans]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

All control positions will be fitted with a red emergency TEA! button ...

 

What you need is a red light on a stick.   I know where there is one.

[Denbridge]

1 hour ago, LNER4479 said:

Well, that would be wonderful if you did decide to part with them ... we'll set up a PM discussion if so.

I'll be in touch, but don't hold your breath i think i know which box they are in, i just need to go over to my storage unit and dig them out.

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Gibbo675 said:

Just get one of these:

 

 

Gibbo.

Hi Gibbo

 

I am sure Graham would be pleased if you were to build him one.

 

[Denbridge]

2 hours ago, Denbridge said:

I'll be in touch, but don't hold your breath i think i know which box they are in, i just need to go over to my storage unit and dig them out.

Well that was quicker than I thought. According to my spreadsheets, the box they are in is right here in a cupboard. I'll dig them out in the next day or two and pm you with some piccies.

[Barry O]

4 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

What you need is a red light on a stick.   I know where there is one.

which goes to green when the train can go... good idea JW!

 

Baz

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Denbridge said:

Well that was quicker than I thought. According to my spreadsheets, the box they are in is right here in a cupboard. I'll dig them out in the next day or two and pm you with some piccies.

Blimey - spreadsheets! That's frighteningly organised ...

 

Look forward to the PM at your convenience. Thanks once again 

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

2 hours ago, Denbridge said:

... According to my spreadsheets, the box they are in is right here in a cupboard. 

 

Your spreadsheets mirror real life?  I wish my work ones did, they  should be shelved under 'Fiction' or in many cases 'Fantasy'.

[Denbridge]

3 hours ago, Dr Gerbil-Fritters said:

 

Your spreadsheets mirror real life?  I wish my work ones did, they  should be shelved under 'Fiction' or in many cases 'Fantasy'.

If i didnt list where things are, I'd never find anything. Especially since a lot of my property is by necessity in store