Hills of the North - The Last Great Project

[ianathompson]

Re shunting the Bonnyface from the down main to the branch platform.

 

Perhaps I have missed something (I often do!) but there is the notation EFPL alongside the north end single slips.

This implies that an economic facing point lock is fitted to No 33 points but no locking bar is shown.

The economic FPL was the standard Midland provision, as I understand it.

The locking bars for No 7b and No 31a points in the branch platform are shown.

Is this an error in the diagram?

 

As the movement was a daily event it would seen reasonable for locking to be provided.

To this end there also appears to be a bolt symbol alongside No 31b end which could also be expected.

If it was the norm to reverse the train beyond 7b onto the up main I would also have expected 7c to have been locked.

 

I have no experience of working a Midland frame so I am unsure as to whether it was commonplace to find both ends of a crossover with locking.

In one of the GER boxes that I signed for there was a single bolt that acted upon two sets of blades. although it was notorious for going out of adjustment.

 

Ian T

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by ianathompson
typo

[Flying Fox 34F]

Ian,

 

You’ve just jogged my memory. Looking again at the diagram it’s possible that the lock bar actual refers to a mechanical foul bar. The track circuits only apply to the Main Lines and associated adjacent pointwork.

Whatever conclusions we reach will not be definitive.  In fact I would welcome input from anyone who knew Garsdale or has a Locking Chart that matches the Diagram

 

Paul

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Flying Fox 34F said:

This will keep me busy for a little while.  I need to park my current day ECML head and think Midland Economy!  

Have you noticed on the diagram that the EFPL for crossover 33 is not indicated by the usual side bar?  The remaining three are displayed.

 

Paul

Hi Paul

 

Crossover 33 doesn't need a facing point lock as is is a trailing crossover. There are facing movements over it but they are shunt moves and without passenger carrying vehicles. 

[ianathompson]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Crossover 33 doesn't need a facing point lock as is is a trailing crossover. There are facing movements over it but they are shunt moves and without passenger carrying vehicles. 

 

I would agree with that analysis in normal circumstances but I thought that Bonniface (there seem to be different spellings!) crossed to the branch platform as a passenger train.

If it carried passengers the points would either be locked by FPLs or they would be clipped and scotched.

 

The alternative would be that all the passengers were detrained, the move took place as ECS, then the passengers crossed to the island platform and reboarded the train.

 

Ian T

 

Edited May 9, 2020 by ianathompson
typo

[St Enodoc]

11 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

I have seen similar photos of the road at Ais Gill blocked solid with cars - parked both sides then two cars meet with no room to pass, resulting in total gridlock! Yes, great for car spotting.

 

'I was there' (as Max Boyce used to say) on 11th August 1968. In fact we only went to Ribblehead to see the northbound run with 70013. My Dad has always said that he was too upset to see any more of it and we returned home. Just as well, as he'd never have coped with that traffic jam at Ais Gill!!

 

(historical note - the 15 guinea special didn't go over Shap so either your reference is in error or it was a different railtour / date?)

Doh! Total brain fade - sorry. The photo is indeed at Ribblehead, as it says in large letters at the top of the page! Perhaps your Dad's car is in the shot? Anyway, it's a great photo and one of many in the mag that will provide lots of ideas for layout details.

Edited May 10, 2020 by St Enodoc

[Flying Fox 34F]

6 hours ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi Paul

 

Crossover 33 doesn't need a facing point lock as is is a trailing crossover. There are facing movements over it but they are shunt moves and without passenger carrying vehicles. 
 

 

 

 

Quote

I would agree with that analysis in normal circumstances but I thought that Bonniface (there seem to be different spellings!) crossed to the branch platform as a passenger train.

If it carried passengers the points would either be locked by FPLs or they would be clipped and scotched.

 

The alternative would be that all the passengers were detrained, the move took place as ECS, then the passengers crossed to the island platform and reboarded the train.

 

Ian T

Clive and Ian,

 

The default position for Trailing points Is that a Point Lock is not required and  if a train carrying passengers is required to pass over Trailing points in the Facing direction, i.e. Wrong Direction Working or Single Line Working, then a Clip and Scotch must be fitted to secure the points.

 

As the train nicknamed the Boniface is  booked to run through to Hawes, the Midland Operating department, would have faced a choice, a Facing Point in the Down Main to access the Branch platform or an Economic Facing Point Lock on the pointwork at the north end?

The first option would have mean’t a double junction and much more Ironwork, (as the P/way Engineer would say), to maintain. Whereas, the latter is just extra components on the pointwork Stretcher bars.  Much cheaper option considering the potential number of through trains to Hawes.

 

 The propelling of passenger trains was far more common back then.  This was usually authorised for shunting purposes for combining trains at larger stations, Doncaster springs to mind with express trains from Hull and Leeds.

 

Clive, you could try this on Exchange with Steam hailed stock!

 

Paul

[LNER4479]

Thanks guys.

 

My reading of the 3 EFPLs is that each apply to main aspect signalled movements (as opposed to shunt moves) over facing points. These all relate to branch movements as there are, of course, no facing points on the mainline. In order (using the Bonniface as the example), they are:

 

The departure towards Hawes from the branch platform, controlled by No.15 signal, requiring FPL on No.31a points;

 

Arrival into the branch platform from Hawes, controlled by No.11 signal, requiring FPL on No.28b points;

 

Departure from the branch platform out on to the up main towards Hellifield, controlled by No.10 signal, requiring FPL on No.7b points.

 

I have had another look at photos this morning and the FPL equipment on 31a points can clearly be seen, together with detection bars fitted.

 

I would echo Paul's comments re operational movements like this being much more routine in the steam era than the present day and we should therefore be careful of direct applying today's rules, customs and practice. In all likelihood the 'rules' affecting control of trains at Garsdale in the 1950s would be LMS ones at best and possibly even dating back to Midland days. Standardisation took time and would hardly be priority at a place like Garsdale!

 

(Apologies for any inaccurate signalling terminology in the above. I'm a signalling enthusiast, not an expert!)

Edited May 10, 2020 by LNER4479

[jamie92208]

11 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Doh! Total brain fade - sorry. The photo is indeed at Ribblehead, as it says in large letters at the top of the page! Perhaps your Dad's car is in the shot? Anyway, it's a great photo and one of many in the mag that will provide lots of ideas for layout details.

I was also at Blea Moor that day and Mallerstang for the return working whichbwas spectacular leaving banking fires all the way along Wild Boar Fell.

 

Jamie

[Michael Edge]

13 hours ago, ianathompson said:

 

 

 

The alternative would be that all the passengers were detrained, the move took place as ECS, then the passengers crossed to the island platform and reboarded the train.

 

Ian T

 

This might have been what was supposed to happen but Garsdale is a pretty remote place and there were never more than a handful of passengers. There's never been a footbridge here either and everyone was supposed to go down to the road and back up again but in my experience all the passengers used the barrow crossing at the up end and might still do for all I know (they did when I was last there in 2013).

Looking through all the photos I can find the covers over the fpl equipment are clearly visible everywhere else but there aren't any in the main running lines at either end. It's not very clear on the signal diagram what the EFPL at the down end crossover is referring to.

[LNER4479]

I have to confess that I've hitherto 'missed' that fourth EFPL! Now it's been pointed out it certainly looks as if it is in relation to the propelling move at the north end.

 

I'm still curious about which route(s) the ground signals relate to where there is just one shunt signal but (in theory) two possible routes (as referred to earlier). That's of interest to me as I ultimately want to set up Garsdale with mechanical, interlocked signalling, so it would be good to know which shunt signals apply to which routes accordingly.

 

Mind you, that's some way off yet!

 

STOP PRESS - First train moved on the layout a little earlier. A report and some photos to follow ...

[Joseph_Pestell]

24 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I have to confess that I've hitherto 'missed' that fourth EFPL! Now it's been pointed out it certainly looks as if it is in relation to the propelling move at the north end.

 

I'm still curious about which route(s) the ground signals relate to where there is just one shunt signal but (in theory) two possible routes (as referred to earlier). That's of interest to me as I ultimately want to set up Garsdale with mechanical, interlocked signalling, so it would be good to know which shunt signals apply to which routes accordingly.

 

Mind you, that's some way off yet!

 

STOP PRESS - First train moved on the layout a little earlier. A report and some photos to follow ...

 

Like you, I had not seen an FPL on the single slip at the north end. If there was one, that changes everything (although that move with the train on the Up Main while the loco refills would still be wrong).

 

Looking forward to pics of train on the layout.

 

PS: I have visited Garsdale Box and pulled a few levers. But in 1974 when the layout was much reduced. I think that about 75% of the levers were out-of-use white.

[ianathompson]

24 minutes ago, LNER4479 said:

I'm still curious about which route(s) the ground signals relate to where there is just one shunt signal but (in theory) two possible routes (as referred to earlier).

 

Again I don't know about Midland practice but one ex GER box that I worked had one "dodd" that could apply to three routes.

Down main to i) up main ii) down main (wrong road) iii) to down siding (worked from a groundframe.

The "standard" response, if you did this on a model, would doubtlessly be along the lines of that's wrong/unprototypical.

 

Re this particular dodd.

I had a tamper that wanted to come out of the down sidings to wait in the up platform for a down passenger to pass. No bother.

I released the ground frame, the tamper came out and stood on the down main.

I got the groundframe release back, locked it and reaxched a "clear understanding" that he was to check that the road was set and proceed to up main.

Of course I then forgot to reverse the crossover, gave him the dodd and behold, so much for clear understanding and route checking, he happily trundled into the down platform in front of the bemused passengers!

With the passenger now on the block I had to run onto the platform, wave him down and get him to reverse for a replay.

Fortunately this time we got it right, just in time to pull off the home without causing a delay and niobody was any the wiser!

 

I'll bet that this happened more than once at Garsdale in regard to reversing Bonniface.

 

Ian T.

[Flying Fox 34F]

I have spent various opportune moments studying the Signalling Diagram for Hawes Junction, (Garsdale), today. As expected and with all forms of history, you create a possible answer and generate more questions.  

Before I continue, I will apologise now to any Midland Signalling Experts who may be looking or anyone who has the Locking chart that matches the diagram.  These are my ramblings and I take full responsibility for them!!!!!  By the way it does go on a bit!  It’s entirely your own fault if you fall asleep whilst trying to understand it all.  You have been warned!!!!!!!!!

Considering the moves that Graham has listed, courtesy of the photographic evidence, implies some moves were Unsignalled. (A big No No now a days) or several of the Shunt Signals could be cleared for multiple routes?  However, the implications of the Branch platform and the through running of NER trains from Northallerton may give us a clue.  

 

The North Eastern Railway had a different view of Signalling provision compared to the Midland.  The NER would provide a signal for any move required. Hence the forests of signals at some locations.  Derby took a different course and this is obvious at many locations on the Settle and Carlisle.  At most locations the Main to Main crossovers had no Shunt Signals provided.  The same seems to be repeated with setback moves into Sidings from Running Lines.  Signals seem to be deemed only necessary on Running Lines and for movements leaving Sidings to join Running Lines.  The rest is controlled by the Signalman’s verbal instruction and his flags.  Confused yet?
 

Back at Hawes Junction, (Garsdale), we have this lovely Signalbox diagram, based on information in 1956.  At this time there were no longer any passenger trains running through from Northallerton.  The service ended on 27th April 1954!  I don’t have the relevant timetables to hand, but would it be wrong to presume that the only passenger service left to Hawes is the Bonny Face?  
 

Now, if we look at the track layout around the Branch Platform, it reveals a potential run round loop that avoids fouling the Up Main.  The Double Slip provides access to and from the platform line, the Up Main, a short headshunt,  (perhaps for locomotives), and access to the loop line marked Siding on the diagram. This loop line has signalled moves both north and south.  But, if the short headshunt is for a locomotive to run round a train stood in the Branch platform, where’s the Signal, to set back onto the Loop line from the Headshunt?  There is 9 signal at the 8a end of the crossover, but nothing at 8c. My suspicion is that there was a signal at 8c point end until the end of the Northallerton service, but it had been removed by 1956.  The short headshunt was now merely part of the Flank protection to protect the trains on the Up Main from any train in the Branch platform that might accidentally move south.  The diagram lists 13 and 14 levers as Spare.  I wrote out a rough chart to list the levers and their potential functions and concluded that 14 maybe this missing signal.  
 

Now the next conundrum,  The lever frame has 40 levers.  5 are Spares in 1956, so there is not enough levers to cover all potential routes?  Now the Operating department would establish what moves they would require and the Signalling Engineer would design a system to match the requirement, but there is the Capital Expenditure to consider.  This is still the case now with large Resignalling schemes. There will be compromises.

 

The photos of the G5 shunting the Horsebox onto the Down Train towards Carlisle, confirm a series of movements back and forth over the pointwork at the south end of the station.  Either 4 Shunt Signal is used twice in the sequence, first to reach the Down Main, then after the G5 has returned to the Up Main to authorise the movement back to the Branch loop line siding, to run round the rest of it’s train.  It is possible that the second move is controlled by the Signalman with a Flag, but the G5 is potentially 250 - 300 yards from the Signalbox and the weather needs to be kind as well.  This part of the country is not known for year round sunshine!

 

So, if number 4 is used for at two routes, it isn’t inconceivable to consider other Shunt signals at this location to be used for multiple routes.  However, as with all railway locations, there is always an exception!  Numbers 29 and 30 signals are provided adjacent to the Down Branch Starter 15 signal.  The initial position to take is that these two shunt signals buck the trend.  30 shunt signal would apply to the route to the Down Siding and 29 leads to the Down Main.  I did consider that 30 signal applies to any movements to the Down side of the railway, whilst 29 authorised shunt moves onto the Branch itself, but 15 signal would be used for that as 16 Advanced Starter protects the route to Hawes.  29 and 30 may have been installed at the request of the NER as their crews would probably use this route the most to access the turntable.

I’ve not mentioned 32 shunt signal, but it would appear to authorise movements on 3 routes, Up Main to Down Sidings, Up Main to Down Main and Up Main to setback back into the siding between the Up Main and the Branch.

 

Now for the that picture of the Fairburn tank and train at the south end taking water.  It looks unusual and probably is.  The rear of train, which is most likely to consist of three coaches is stood on the Up Main and will be showing as occupying T114 track circuit on the diagram within the SIgnalbox.  However, what is not known is if the points are locked in position.  Modern power points are always locked irrespective of if they are Facing or Trailing to a movement, but mechanical points would still be operated by the mechanical interlockI got with the electric locking added as deemed necessary.  7c and 8b point ends are only detected in position when either 10 or 23 signal are cleared, unless there was point indications in the Signalbox.  If it was a regular move, then I’d expect to see something additional on the diagram to remind the Signalman what can and cannot be done.  It’s one of the reasons for displaying the EFPL’s elsewhere.  Perhaps the situation arose because the water supply at a location earlier in the journey was not available.  We’ll probably never know?

 

Finally, (I bet you are thinking thank goodness for that!), Some of the equipment shown, i.e. Track Circuits, on the 1956 diagram may have been LMS improvements implemented during the 2nd World War or by an infant BR.  Without seeing diagrams from earlier times, we’ll not be able to say, “It was done like this”

 

Thank you for your time.

 

Paul

 

 

[LNER4479]

Thanks for that Paul, both in terms of obvious time taken to study the plan then post your reply.

 

Your observation re removal of a signal for the run round move post-1954 is an interesting one; hadn't considered that.

 

Both your and Ian's suggestion that one shunt signal could apply to multiple routes was one I'd thought off but didn't dare mention in case I made myself look a right div(!) But if that was (perhaps grudgingly) accepted practice by HMRI and their predecessors then that certainly answers my question. Good spot too re signal 32 potentially applying to three possible routes (subject to coming to clear understanding … not actually too difficult in that case as the box would be close at hand) - I'd only considered two.

 

Happy to take it as that … unless a Midland signalling cognoscenti subsequently puts us right?

 

[Flying Fox 34F]

I enjoyed doing it.  It also helped pass the time during a steady 12 hour shift out on patrol.  Not so many people out today.  Damp weather for you, I suspect.  I too will be interested in any replies.  These kind of Pie throwing comments usually stir up some helpful responses.  There is much to learn and understand and  all for making model railways that little bit better.
 

Paul

[LNER4479]

Anyhow, back at the current layout construction work, picking up the story from about 4 weeks ago:

 

Next job is to construct the Shap approach incline. Here, I've roughly mapped out the alignment then cut some trackbed pieces, the two nearest from some 12mm ply I had to hand, nice n solid for a permanent layout.

 

I'd mapped out the rate of rise all along from the junction to the start of the Shap Wells scene so it's a case of setting up the support pieces of gradually increasing thickness. Or, as I started at the Shap Wells end, gradually decreasing thickness ...

 

Here are the support pieces for the second piece of 12mm ply, immediately prior to covering them up forever(!) With the top pieces available, the exact position of each could be finally adjusted to try and avoid any local humps or dips to ensure a consistent rate of climb.

 

Done! As we get closer to base level, then the thickness of the trackbed pieces has to get thinner, ending up with thick card for the last / first 3mm of rise.

 

Cork down going down ...

 

... and then we can track lay, always my favourite part!

 

Done! In just over 12 feet, the rise is 50mm, round about 1-in-75. As a reminder, the tracks behind are the northern approach to Carlisle and those at the back heading for Garsdale.

 

This is the higher end and a word or two explanation I feel is required for the double chicane! All of this area will eventually be covered by the next layer, which will feature the ex-NBR lines around Canal. As the Shap approach lines are rising, then underneath clearances become more and more critical at this end, so the sooner I can get them outside the outline of that board, the better. The balance is not making the Shap lines too wiggly, particularly for trains climbing t'hill!

 

Meanwhile, back down the junction end, there's some wiring up required! That's been a bit of a drag these last couple of weeks as there's quite a lot of live frogs to be switched, especially for the long crossings but I'd done enough by earlier today to allow trains to run.

 

So he we are, ready to go. One of the trusty Duettes temporarily linked up to provide the power. Of course, you can only really show these sort of things with moving footage, so here goes:

 

 

That's a run of about 35 feet. Time to pour a suitable tipple 

 

Edited May 10, 2020 by LNER4479

[Paul Cram]

The Bonnyface was the only Midland passenger service to Hawes. All othe passenger trains were North Eastern running between Garsadale and Northallerton.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

one shunt signal could apply to multiple routes

Can't speak for the Midland but that was quite common on some railways.

[St Enodoc]

2 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

That's a run of about 35 feet. Time to pour a suitable tipple 

Great stuff. Running the first train is always a special moment.

[Barry O]

More testing required Red Leader

 

Well done!

Baz

[LNER4479]

More railway required to test, methinks! Next stage is to install the curve north of Garsdale then reactivate the already constructed Garsdale boards (last saw a train in 2007!) so we can run a train from one end to the other over Midland metals

[jamie92208]

12 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Can't speak for the Midland but that was quite common on some railways.

The Midland certainly used that. There is on on Green Ayre thatvserves the coal yard and the bay platform being accessed from the up main. When I queried this with a retired Green Ayre Fireman he told me that utvwas correctvand the crews were expected to know where they were going. 

 

 

Jamie

[ianathompson]

2 hours ago, jamie92208 said:

crews were expected to know where they were going.

 

Unlike tamper drivers!

 

Ian T

[jamie92208]

11 minutes ago, ianathompson said:

 

Unlike tamper drivers!

 

Ian T

I suspect that thd well heeled passengers wouldn't want to ride in coal trucks and the coal merchants wouldn't be impressed with coaches, there's no pleasing some people.

 

Jamie

[Flying Fox 34F]

The strangest thing I’ve heard from the mouth of a Tamper was, “I don’t sign that crossover, mate?????”

 

You can imagine my response!

 

Paul