Annie's Virtual Pre-Grouping, Grouping and BR Layouts & Workbench

[Annie]

Ken Green is well known for making excellent coaches for Trainz and I've been mostly familiar with his pre-grouping coaches, BUT he has also done LMS PI and PII coaches.  I went hunting and discovered that he had released some of his LMS coaches in crimson and cream which was a surprise since I didn't know about those.

Certainly for the early BR period on the Bristol & Birmingham these coaches would be very appropriate indeed.

 

PI era CK

 

 

In other news I have been able to obtain a lovely digital copy of a pre-grouping map of the Bristol & Birmingham Railway.  I can't show it to you because it's under copyright with terrible warnings as to what would happen if anyone else but me should even glance at it.

I'm sure my geography teacher in high school ran away to become a hermit in a cave after attempting to teach me.  I have little sense at all of where anything is in the world so a good map of anywhere I'm attempting to model is essential equipment.

[AdamsRadial]

57 minutes ago, Annie said:

a good map of anywhere I'm attempting to model is essential equipment.

Especially if you're going to use TransDEM to create a trainz map from it.

[Annie]

1 hour ago, AdamsRadial said:

Especially if you're going to use TransDEM to create a trainz map from it.

I've only been daring enough to use Basemapz so far.  I was given a TransDEM map for the North Cornwall Railway not so long ago and I can certainly see the advantage with using it.

[Annie]

Compound!  I'd forgotten how wonderful they sound.  The coaches are ex-LMS P1  BTK (D1696) and CK (D1694).

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

Just think, you could run BR Class D16/1s singly or as a pair on test trains up the Lickey incline....

 

I'm not sure they did so IRL, but it would be fun?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D16/1

 

Hat, coat, exit stage left, rapidly......

[Annie]

1 hour ago, Hroth said:

Just think, you could run BR Class D16/1s singly or as a pair on test trains up the Lickey incline....

 

I'm not sure they did so IRL, but it would be fun?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_D16/1

 

Hat, coat, exit stage left, rapidly......

To tell the complete truth I don't mind the two LMS English Electric dismals diesels all that much.  Black and silver was a fine looking livery for them too in my opinion.  Once they started painting dismals diesels green it all went downhill and as for blue that was the collapse of civilisation and the loss of all hope.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Annie
Um.......

[rocor]

39 minutes ago, Annie said:

To tell the complete truth I don't mind the two LMS English Electric dismals diesels all that much.  Black and silver was a fine looking livery for them too in my opinion.  Once they started painting dismals diesels green it all went downhill and as for blue that was the collapse of civilisation and the loss of all hope.

 

There are greens and blues, and then again greens and blues. Some of the early examples can be quite pleasing, such as the two tone greens that some diesels such as Hymeks and Deltics were rendered in. Then there is the blue of the prototype Deltic,  the Blue Pullman, and the first livery of the class 86 electrics. Of course then all this culminated in British Rail Foul Blue with sickly yellow highlights (hideous).

[Annie]

I

2 hours ago, rocor said:

 

There are greens and blues, and then again greens and blues. Some of the early examples can be quite pleasing, such as the two tone greens that some diesels such as Hymeks and Deltics were rendered in. Then there is the blue of the prototype Deltic,  the Blue Pullman, and the first livery of the class 86 electrics. Of course then all this culminated in British Rail Foul Blue with sickly yellow highlights (hideous).

I'm difficult to convince regarding diesels.  I saw my first diesel locomotive when I was four and I instantly hated it.  That childhood reaction has pretty much stayed with me all through my life.  The number of diesel locomotives I consider worthy of consideration can be counted on the fingers of an inattentive cabinetmaker's hand.

 

A tedious job I have been putting off was replacing the platforms and platform fencing at Bromsgrove.  It's done now after an awful lot of adjusting and fiddling about and passengers no longer have to leap the gap to get in and out of coaches at the platform.

 

 

Another little job was doing some final tidying up at the mini version of the wagon works.

The real wagon works was considerably larger than this and if I'd tried to model it properly I doubt that the space available on the Trainz baseboard would have been big enough.  At least the mini version is a nod at what should be there.

 

 

 

[Annie]

The problem with doing the early LMR is that there's no early BR 8F's available and the 8F's that are available  are payware with no mods allowed licences so I can't just do a swift re-letter of their tenders to read 'BRITISH RAILWAYS'.  I'm expanding the good traffic on Lickney and I really need a better goods engine than either a 4F or a 7F.

On Middle Vales where the major traffic is coal and minerals I was using Super D's and Riddles ex-WD 2-8-0's to tackle this traffic.  I don't think a Super D would have ever run on Lickey, but a WD would certainly be plausible.

 

A test run.  I put together a longish goods train that was likely to be a heavy one and pointed ex WD No. 63031 towards Blackwell.

 

 

A 750 ton train.

 

 

 

With two Jinties acting as bankers we're off.

 

 

 

No. 63031 is invisible behind its own smoke screen.

 

 

Now resting at one of the holding sidings at 'Birmingham' fiddle yard.

Possibly I should have had three Jinties on banking duty, but at a steady 13 mph for the climb up Lickey it worked out Ok.  Having four bogie bolster wagons loaded with rails in the train might have been a bit much, but I wanted a good test and from running these ex-WD engines on Middle Vales I was fairly certain it could do it.

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Annie
Awful mistakes

[Caley Jim]

I once watched a mineral train climbing Lickey with a 4F at the front and a 9F and two panniers banking.  Don't know how many wagons were on it, but it was quite a sight - and sound!  This would be early 1960's.  I recall that when standing on Bromsgrove station looking north the start of the incline was quite noticeable.

 

Jim

 

Jim

[Annie]

The incline was accurately mapped out on this layout by its original builder Jim. - and yes even on the model the incline makes a sudden start directly after Bromsgrove station.

 

The problem with the Trainz simulator is that even when an engine's config script files have been done as well as they can be done the engine will still be better than the prototype in terms of performance.  That old WD 2-8-0 most probably would have climbed the incline on its own so the main point of attaching bankers is that while they do assist the lead train engine and prevent stalling they also slow it down to a sensible speed.

The other problem that I have is that the yard loop sidings at both Bromsgrove and Blackwell are only half as long as they should be so prototypical length trains aren't really possible.

 

The sounds of the engines climbing the bank are stirring enough in the simulator, so they must've been really something real life.

[Annie]

Now this is a much better photo of Bromsgrove circa 1925, - only now I feel completely intimidated and want to hide under my bed.

 

Click on the image twice for a much bigger picture.

 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Annie
More information

[Annie]

4F experiments.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Annie]

Perhaps one of the most disappointing things about having spent money and commissioned new L&Y wagons for TS2019 is that my old 'smoke and mirrors' litho style vans still look better. 

don't misunderstand me, - I'm happy that my TS2012 'basic' textured models still look good in the latest version of Trainz, - it's just that if I could do my own 3D modelling I know I could make some pretty darn good models; but I can't so I end up having to get others to do it for me which never quite works out.

 

[mpeffers]

12 hours ago, Annie said:

...I don't think a Super D would have ever run on Lickey, but a WD would certainly be plausible.

Again, the Gloucestershire Railway Memories site has a picture of a Super D running (I believe) north through Cheltenham, although it’s dated 1960 (so a bit late for your period) and the destination isn’t stated so can’t say for sure if if continued up Lickey.

 

The caption also states they occasionally worked into Gloucester from Hereford and I presume they were no stranger to the ex-LNWR metals around Birmingham, so seems possible one might have bridged that gap at some point, but like you say it was unlikely to be a common appearance.

 

Ex-WD locos probably a better bet.

[Compound2632]

Although Saltley's allocation was overwhelmingly ex-Midland, LMS, and BR standards in the 50s, it did have a small allocation of Super Ds around the time of nationalisation. Read All About It. Here's one - not a Saltley one - on the ex-Midland Sutton Park line in the late 50s, though it may have come from one of the ex-LNWR sheds in the Walsall / Wolverhampton area.

 

On the other hand, WDs seem to have been very rare in the West Midlands, certainly on ex-Midland or LNWR lines. As an exception, here's one from Cardiff Canton shed on its way to Stratford via Broom Junction - avoiding the Lickey or Hatton banks!

[Annie]

Interesting.  Thank you very much Stephen, that allocation chart is a very useful reference.  So on that basis while it might be possible that a Super D may have worked down from Birmingham, - it looks like what I need instead is another half dozen 4F's.

Well that's alright then, - the 'Austin 7' 7F and the WD can  go back to Middle Vales and I'll get some more 4F's.

It was interesting though trying the WD on Lickey as while it is an older model from TS2009 it is very well crafted and runs well in it's own thuggish smoke shrouded way.

[Annie]

So I've ordered two more 4F's from GP Locomotives.  Another mucky one and another clean one.  Both are Bath engines since Gary at GP Locos doesn't seem to do any Birmingham engines.  I wonder if I asked him he might do a Birmingham 4F or two for me.

 

I had to be very firm with myself not to buy another 4P Compound, - though I can't guarantee that I won't weaken later. 

[AdamsRadial]

8 hours ago, Annie said:

my old 'smoke and mirrors' litho style vans still look better. 

This is the paradox of modelling, you make something more and more detailed, expecting it to look better and better, but then older models give that hidden kick of nostalgia like old toys in the cupboard whispering to you that they want to come out.

 

Modelling,  both actual and virtual, relies on the viewer/player entering into a shared illusion. Sometimes making things too lifelike can spoil the illusion by a strange reaction in the viewer, I think it's been called "the uncanny valley" effect.

 

I stick to things that I can get immersed in now, such as a round and round 00 layout with a reverse loop, because it's able to kick in all the old imaginations I developed seeing C J Freezer's plans in the magazines. I've given up trying to replicate the East Kent Light Railway faithfully in Trainz because I realise I'll get obsessed over the blades of grass or the lack of tight cuttings. (The lack of wing/check rails on Auran track helps here because there weren't any on the prototype

 

What I wanted to achieve I have, to a large extent. I wanted to see what some parts of the line that were never photographed might have looked like. I wanted to see the Adams Radial running, there are no photos I have been able to find showing it anywhere else than in the yard at Shepherswell. What was it like to be up by the water tower at Richborough Castle sidings when a train swept by on the SECR lines. I wanted to know what it was like ascending the old Guilford Colliery branch. I've managed all of those, and with old stuff. I don't feel the need to keep buying newer versions of Trainz to see if it makes things look better, they look well enough to me as they are.

[Annie]

4 hours ago, AdamsRadial said:

I don't feel the need to keep buying newer versions of Trainz to see if it makes things look better, they look well enough to me as they are.

 

I own both TANE and TS2019, but despite that the work I've been doing on my Lickey Incline layout is being done in TS2012.  The engines and rolling stock on Lickey are all legacy models with some like the ex-LMS Garratt dating back to TS2004.  I use TS2012 because it does what it says on the tin and it works.  Somewhere along the line (pun intended) Auran/N3V lost the plot with the later versions of Trainz and piled on too much complication, - which spawned endless bugs that needed to be patched, - and the patches would break things that were working before, - and so it would go on seemingly without end.

 

You aren't the only one with an interest in the K&ESR as I have been slowly working on updating Angela Halliday's old TS2004 K&ESR layout in TS2019, but I spend more time being irritated by TS2019 than actually doing anything useful.  I decided that I would largely keep Angela's vision of the K&ESR and simply work on improving things like tree models and fences as well as generally tidying up so everything fits together neatly.  Doing every blade of grass just right and obsessing over every tiny detail is definitely not what I want to do with this nice old Trainz layout. 

 

I started out with doing litho type texturing on Trainz models by actually making litho coach sides for '0' gauge coarse scale models.  A lot can be learned from studying old '0' gauge models from the 1920s and 1930s since illusion, - what I call 'smoke and mirrors', - is very much at the heart of making a flat surface look like it's 3D.  I'm sorely tempted to take my new TS2019 L&Y wagons and redo their texturing in my own old fashioned style.  The 3D meshes themselves are fine, but what passes for high resolution texturing these days looks pretty naff to me. 

[AdamsRadial]

30 minutes ago, Annie said:

I have been slowly working on updating Angela Halliday's old TS2004 K&ESR layout

Snap! I'm doing it in TC3, mind, but I've cloned the gated level crossings and changed the gates texture to fully transparent and removed the sounds so now the line has the proper ungated crossings. The other thing to remember is, she got Biddenden the wrong way round: the station should be to the north of the road, not the South, and rotated 180 degrees so the building and sidings are to the East. I finished that off yesterday. The  broken tunnel north of St Michaels halt is next on the must-do list.

 

TC3 allows me to run TRS2004-type routes but with far better steam locomotives. For some reason Auran/N3V back-pedalled when it came to TS2009 and threw away a lot of the steam improvements that made TC3 such a lovely simulator for kettles. And, with TS2009, the alpha problem of much of the earlier trees and foliage gets too bad to bear, but they all show up fine in TC3. There is still an alpha-sorting issue if you put too many things too close together that have transparency, but some clever placement usually gets around that. I do love the way she gardened her lines, I also have Hayling Island by her running in TC3, with a bodged up Terrier using a body from TS2009 on a bogie from TC3. No different to railway modelling, putting a WIlls kit body on a Jinty chassis

 

The EKLR is not the KESR, by the way, much more fascinating. Collieries, abandoned collieries, smouldering embankments, next to the Bishops Castle it has to be the oddest standard-gauge railway that never got grouped.

Edited October 4, 2020 by AdamsRadial

[AdamsRadial]

32 minutes ago, Annie said:

The 3D meshes themselves are fine, but what passes for high resolution texturing these days looks pretty naff to me. 

I just realised, TaNE introduced a newer version of the graphics engine which (I think) supported improved texturing and it's possible that the textures on your recently purchased models are expecting to have all the extra channels that TS2012 won't have. You might find it worthwhile cloning the models and having versions just for TS2012 with simplified textures. The Content Creation sub-forum on N3V's site has quite a bit about the newer FBX standard. I've not been following in great detail because I have no hardware capable of running anything after TS2012.

[Annie]

10 minutes ago, AdamsRadial said:

The EKLR is not the KESR, by the way, much more fascinating. Collieries, abandoned collieries, smouldering embankments, next to the Bishops Castle it has to be the oddest standard-gauge railway that never got grouped.

Oops.  Somehow my sleepy brain managed to muddle up the EKLR with the K&ESR, but definitely an interesting project.

 

13 minutes ago, AdamsRadial said:

Snap! I'm doing it in TC3, mind, but I've cloned the gated level crossings and changed the gates texture to fully transparent and removed the sounds so now the line has the proper ungated crossings. The other thing to remember is, she got Biddenden the wrong way round: the station should be to the north of the road, not the South, and rotated 180 degrees so the building and sidings are to the East. I finished that off yesterday. The  broken tunnel north of St Michaels halt is next on the must-do list.

I haven't got as far as Biddenden yet, but I shall bear that in mind.  I've been using old OS maps as a guide while I've been working on the layout so no doubt I would have seen right away that something wasn't right.

 

17 minutes ago, AdamsRadial said:

TC3 allows me to run TRS2004-type routes but with far better steam locomotives. For some reason Auran/N3V back-pedalled when it came to TS2009 and threw away a lot of the steam improvements that made TC3 such a lovely simulator for kettles. And, with TS2009, the alpha problem of much of the earlier trees and foliage gets too bad to bear, but they all show up fine in TC3. There is still an alpha-sorting issue if you put too many things too close together that have transparency, but some clever placement usually gets around that. I do love the way she gardened her lines, I also have Hayling Island by her running in TC3, with a bodged up Terrier using a body from TS2009 on a bogie from TC3. No different to railway modelling, putting a WIlls kit body on a Jinty chassis

I have a copy of TC3 installed on my computer and it's been far too long since I last started it up and had a play with it.  Auran/N3V seems to have a problem with steam engines.  I think they regard them as being too difficult for their average punter to drive.  There's certainly been complains from content creators who had their steam engine e-specs altered by N3V in TS2019 and not in a good way either.

 

Angela definitely had a gift for making nice layouts.  Her Hayling Island layout is one of my favourites too.

 

Some of my older engines have been kitbashed with newer bits as well.  As you say it's no different to railway modelling with fitting bits together to end up with something better than it was before.

 

24 minutes ago, AdamsRadial said:

I just realised, TaNE introduced a newer version of the graphics engine which (I think) supported improved texturing and it's possible that the textures on your recently purchased models are expecting to have all the extra channels that TS2012 won't have. You might find it worthwhile cloning the models and having versions just for TS2012 with simplified textures. The Content Creation sub-forum on N3V's site has quite a bit about the newer FBX standard. I've not been following in great detail because I have no hardware capable of running anything after TS2012.

My new wagons are made for TS2019 and have huge graphics files in the new FBX format.  This is what I find so strange; - all that technology and the final result isn't better than what I draw up in Paint.Net.

[Annie]

'Britannia' now with PII corridor coaches.  BTK, - CK, - CK, - OT, - BTK.

 

 

Open third interior.

 

 

Composite, - 3rd class section.

 

 

Composite, - 1st class section.

 

[Compound2632]

Why so many Cossacks?