BR Wagons - Grey, Bauxite or both?

[PrestburyJack]

Hi,

 

Probably obvious to most people, but can someone please tell me what do the grey and bauxite colours of 16T mineral wagons and similar signify please?

 

What are the approximate eras / dates for each?

Would they run behind steam and / or diesel?

Would the 2 colours be mixed together in a single train?

Would the 2 colours be seen at the same time, even if not mixed in a single train?

 

Thanks, Gary

 

[stadman]

Grey = unfitted no brakes

Bauxite = fitted automatic vacuum brakes

Yes to both, can be mixed however the fitted portion should be coupled together and immediately behind the locomotive to give maximum brake force.

Any unfitted vehicles to the rear with a brake van (can be fitted unfitted or piped) behind with a guard to apply hand brake just in case.

[Fat Controller]

Hi,

 

Probably obvious to most people, but can someone please tell me what do the grey and bauxite colours of 16T mineral wagons and similar signify please?

 

What are the approximate eras / dates for each?

Would they run behind steam and / or diesel?

Would the 2 colours be mixed together in a single train?

Would the 2 colours be seen at the same time, even if not mixed in a single train?

 

Thanks, Gary

Generally, those wagons painted grey were unfitted, whilst those in bauxite had vacuum brakes. The practice dated from the early days of BR in 1948. In the late 1960s/early 1970s, some unfitted stock, most notably 21t hoppers and the 'two door' 21t Minerals, appeared in brown. I've often wondered if this was a money-saving exercise, as Red Lead, and later, Aluminium Oxide, was used as a primer on steelwork; did the railway simply omit the grey?

The colours were usually seen together, the exception being fully-fitted trains, which would have only Bauxite and Freight-Stock Brown wagons.

There is an ongoing thread on here about 16t minerals, which is well worth visiting:-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/36891-16t-minerals/page-92?hl=%2B16t+%2Bminerals&do=findComment&comment=2126813

[Wickham Green]

Generally, those wagons painted grey were unfitted, whilst those in bauxite had vacuum brakes. The practice dated from the early days of BR in 1948. In the late 1960s/early 1970s, some unfitted stock, most notably 21t hoppers and the 'two door' 21t Minerals, appeared in brown. I've often wondered if this was a money-saving exercise, as Red Lead, and later, Aluminium Oxide, was used as a primer on steelwork; did the railway simply omit the grey?

The colours were usually seen together, the exception being fully-fitted trains, which would have only Bauxite and Freight-Stock Brown wagons.

There is an ongoing thread on here about 16t minerals, which is well worth visiting:-

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/36891-16t-minerals/page-92?hl=%2B16t+%2Bminerals&do=findComment&comment=2126813

The practise of painting-yer-wagons grey or red/brown certainly went back to early 'Grouping' days on the LNER ( only ) - but may have originated on one of the constituent Companies before 1923. ( Just to confuse matter, the LMS also used grey and bauxite - but that was a matter of date ! ) 

[The Johnster]

I would add 2 comments.

 

1) Bauxite liveried wagons included those 'piped only', provided with a through vacuum pipe so that they could be included in the fitted head of a part fitted train or anywhere in a fully fitted one, so long as vacuum brakes were provided and working on the last 4 axles of the fitted head or train.  There is little difference in modelling terms, except that the pipe, to which the brake hose is attached and which can be seen protruding from the underframe below the buffer beam, is painted red on a fitted vehicle and white on a piped only one.

 

2) The guard in a brake van is not there 'just in case', though he is responsible for protecting the rear of his train with detonators if it requires an assisting locomotive from the rear.  On a unfitted train or a train with an unfitted portion, the couplings have to be kept as taut as possible when the train is moving and the wagons not allowed to bunch up when the loco slows down or is braking descending a gradient, as this will result in a violent 'snatch' when the loco picks up power again, which can result in a coupling breaking and the train parting*; the guard must apply the van's brake manually to hold the rear of the train back.  For this reason he has to have the same level of route knowledge as the driver, and I can tell you from experience that he has to keep his wits about him out in the country on a dark or foggy night to be sure of where he is!  He is also required to attend to the van's paraffin side lamps, which have red glass shades so that normally 3 red lights are shown to the rear of the train, one tail and the 2 sides, which shine a white light forward so that the loco crew can check that the train is complete.  The shade must be removed so that a white light is shown to the rear if the van is running parallel and not separated by more than one running road, as on a relief or goods road, and in loops, reception sidings, or refuge sidings alongside running lines.  A driver encountering 3 red lights on a dark night has to assume that he is about to be in collision with a goods train; if you are running along a relief line it can look very frightening, especially on a curve where perspectives are shifting, and the driver will be justifiably strident in his comments when he next sees you!  A guard on a van also signals with his handlamp to inform signalmen when his train is 'inside clear' of a passing loop or similar; the signalman can then clear back to accept the fast train you have been put in the loop for!

 

 

Unfitted and part fitted trains with brake vans carrying side lamps as well as the tail ran up to the early 80s in some areas.  Conversely, fully fitted freight trains ran from around the turn of the 20th century on most railways, with a brake van at the rear but carrying just the one tail lamp.  The guard had no need to assist with braking on such trains.  On the LNER, up to 2 fitted vehicles with the brake working could be marshalled behind the brake van, which in any case had to be piped or fitted so that the guard had a 'setter' available.  This is a lever that you lift which admits air to the vacuum system and applies the brakes.  

 

Guards on fully fitted trains were allowed to ride in the back cab of the loco following a single manning agreement with the drivers' union in 1969, and this was adopted for parcels and ecs working as well; a brake van could now be dispensed with.  But it was still necessary to have a goods brake van with the guard riding in it on unfitted or part fitted goods trains, and a brake compartment with the guard riding in it on passenger carrying trains, which included TPOs for this purpose.  A limit of 10 vehicles behind the brake compartment applied in this case.

 

To summarise, grey and bauxite liveried freight vehicles were introduced by BR, but colour identification of this sort had previously been used on the LNER and LMS.  They are suitable for BR steam, transition, and blue diesel eras, 1948-80 approx, but in the early years there would still have been many vehicles in big 4 liveries, especially wartime and post war ones, and some early BR wooden wagons were unpainted due to continuing post war material shortages.  Many later big 4 vehicles were repainted into the BR standard liveries, and some were retrofitted with vacuum brakes, so an unfitted livery LNER or LMS wagon could go into workshops and come out in BR bauxite livery.  Again because of post war shortages, actual shades of bauxite or grey varied and weathered differently according to quality; precise reproduction of actual early 1950s wagon livery does not always match the actual colour specification, and there are few colour photos from the period to work from!

 

 

*There is comedy value in this, but actually it can have very serious consequences,  as you have 2 portions of a train occupying a section at once, and the loco crew or the guard may not immediately be aware of the situation, so some distance can open up between the portions; runaways and collisions are not unlikely in these circumstances.  The brake van's brake is not designed to stop a train in this situation, though it will given time and room; it is powerful enough to hold the train back and keep the couplings taut.  But couplings may become slack because of the vertical transition curve at the bottom of a gradient; because they are a couple of feet closer to the theoretical centre of this curve than the rail on which the wagon's wheels are running, they travel a lesser distance around the circumference of the curve than them, but of course are still travelling at the same forward linear speed.  A snatch at the bottom of a gradient is more or less inevitable, and if it is a dip followed by an ascending gradient which the loco must be powered up, it is a foregone conclusion.  Driver and guard must exercise a high degree of skill and anticipation of each other's actions to minimise the snatch.  Any idiot can drive a passenger train; goods work needs skill!!!

Edited March 26, 2018 by The Johnster

[Edwin_m]

But couplings may become slack because of the vertical transition curve at the bottom of a gradient; because they are a couple of feet closer to the theoretical centre of this curve than the rail on which the wagon's wheels are running, they travel a lesser distance around the circumference of the curve than them, but of course are still travelling at the same forward linear speed.  A snatch at the bottom of a gradient is more or less inevitable, and if it is a dip followed by an ascending gradient which the loco must be powered up, it is a foregone conclusion.  Driver and guard must exercise a high degree of skill and anticipation of each other's actions to minimise the snatch.  Any idiot can drive a passenger train; goods work needs skill!!!

 

Thanks for the useful comments but I'm afraid I don't buy this part.  Vertical curve radii are in the hundreds of yards so a difference of a couple of feet won't have any noticeable effect.  I think it's far more likely to be a consequence of the front of the train being on a lesser descending or even ascending gradient and therefore not pulling so hard (or at all) on the wagons behind, while the guard is still seeing tight couplings because his part of the train is still on the downgrade.  

[kevinlms]

I would add 2 comments.

 

1) Bauxite liveried wagons included those 'piped only', provided with a through vacuum pipe so that they could be included in the fitted head of a part fitted train or anywhere in a fully fitted one, so long as vacuum brakes were provided and working on the last 4 axles of the fitted head or train. There is little difference in modelling terms, except that the pipe, to which the brake hose is attached and which can be seen protruding from the underframe below the buffer beam, is painted red on a fitted vehicle and white on a piped only one.

 

2) The guard in a brake van is not there 'just in case', though he is responsible for protecting the rear of his train with detonators if it requires an assisting locomotive from the rear. On a unfitted train or a train with an unfitted portion, the couplings have to be kept as taut as possible when the train is moving and the wagons not allowed to bunch up when the loco slows down or is braking descending a gradient, as this will result in a violent 'snatch' when the loco picks up power again, which can result in a coupling breaking and the train parting*; the guard must apply the van's brake manually to hold the rear of the train back. For this reason he has to have the same level of route knowledge as the driver, and I can tell you from experience that he has to keep his wits about him out in the country on a dark or foggy night to be sure of where he is! He is also required to attend to the van's paraffin side lamps, which have red glass shades so that normally 3 red lights are shown to the rear of the train, one tail and the 2 sides, which shine a white light forward so that the loco crew can check that the train is complete. The shade must be removed so that a white light is shown to the rear if the van is running parallel and not separated by more than one running road, as on a relief or goods road, and in loops, reception sidings, or refuge sidings alongside running lines. A driver encountering 3 red lights on a dark night has to assume that he is about to be in collision with a goods train; if you are running along a relief line it can look very frightening, especially on a curve where perspectives are shifting, and the driver will be justifiably strident in his comments when he next sees you! A guard on a van also signals with his handlamp to inform signalmen when his train is 'inside clear' of a passing loop or similar; the signalman can then clear back to accept the fast train you have been put in the loop for!

 

 

Unfitted and part fitted trains with brake vans carrying side lamps as well as the tail ran up to the early 80s in some areas. Conversely, fully fitted freight trains ran from around the turn of the 20th century on most railways, with a brake van at the rear but carrying just the one tail lamp. The guard had no need to assist with braking on such trains. On the LNER, up to 2 fitted vehicles with the brake working could be marshalled behind the brake van, which in any case had to be piped or fitted so that the guard had a 'setter' available. This is a lever that you lift which admits air to the vacuum system and applies the brakes.

 

Guards on fully fitted trains were allowed to ride in the back cab of the loco following a single manning agreement with the drivers' union in 1969, and this was adopted for parcels and ecs working as well; a brake van could now be dispensed with. But it was still necessary to have a goods brake van with the guard riding in it on unfitted or part fitted goods trains, and a brake compartment with the guard riding in it on passenger carrying trains, which included TPOs for this purpose. A limit of 10 vehicles behind the brake compartment applied in this case.

 

To summarise, grey and bauxite liveried freight vehicles were introduced by BR, but colour identification of this sort had previously been used on the LNER and LMS. They are suitable for BR steam, transition, and blue diesel eras, 1948-80 approx, but in the early years there would still have been many vehicles in big 4 liveries, especially wartime and post war ones, and some early BR wooden wagons were unpainted due to continuing post war material shortages. Many later big 4 vehicles were repainted into the BR standard liveries, and some were retrofitted with vacuum brakes, so an unfitted livery LNER or LMS wagon could go into workshops and come out in BR bauxite livery. Again because of post war shortages, actual shades of bauxite or grey varied and weathered differently according to quality; precise reproduction of actual early 1950s wagon livery does not always match the actual colour specification, and there are few colour photos from the period to work from!

 

 

*There is comedy value in this, but actually it can have very serious consequences, as you have 2 portions of a train occupying a section at once, and the loco crew or the guard may not immediately be aware of the situation, so some distance can open up between the portions; runaways and collisions are not unlikely in these circumstances. The brake van's brake is not designed to stop a train in this situation, though it will given time and room; it is powerful enough to hold the train back and keep the couplings taut. But couplings may become slack because of the vertical transition curve at the bottom of a gradient; because they are a couple of feet closer to the theoretical centre of this curve than the rail on which the wagon's wheels are running, they travel a lesser distance around the circumference of the curve than them, but of course are still travelling at the same forward linear speed. A snatch at the bottom of a gradient is more or less inevitable, and if it is a dip followed by an ascending gradient which the loco must be powered up, it is a foregone conclusion. Driver and guard must exercise a high degree of skill and anticipation of each other's actions to minimise the snatch. Any idiot can drive a passenger train; goods work needs skill!!!

 

One comment, the LMS railway did not differentiate fitted and unfitted vehicles based on colour. The LNER may have done so, but never the LMS.

Agreed it may be logical to do so, but it would take several years to get around to repainting the required percentage of the fleet. Think of how many years it took to fix the wagon fleet, so handbrakes were universally on the RHS, decades!

[Wickham Green]

 

 

2) The guard ........ is also required to attend to the van's paraffin side lamps, which have red glass shades so that normally 3 red lights are shown to the rear of the train, one tail and the 2 sides, which shine a white light forward so that the loco crew can check that the train is complete.  

......... the ever-frugal Southern saw absolutely no point in having a THIRD light and relied on the red rear aspects of the side lights alone ....... and why not ?

[The Johnster]

Thanks for the useful comments but I'm afraid I don't buy this part.  Vertical curve radii are in the hundreds of yards so a difference of a couple of feet won't have any noticeable effect.  I think it's far more likely to be a consequence of the front of the train being on a lesser descending or even ascending gradient and therefore not pulling so hard (or at all) on the wagons behind, while the guard is still seeing tight couplings because his part of the train is still on the downgrade.  

 

The difference is not large, but don't forget it can be magnified by a factor of up to 60 on a 60 wagon train.  There are many factors at play when a snatch occurs, but I would say this is definitely one of them.  Even the best driver with the best guard cannot always avoid a snatch, and the ability and skill levels of both drivers and guards is variable; it is largely a matter of anticipating how the train reacts to the dip, and guesstimating when to put steam on or take the brake off to minimise the effect.  As I said, skill is needed, and of a very high order at that!

 

It is less of an issue with a fully fitted train, because the brakes all come off more or less simultaneously and any snatch at the rear will be smaller.  Should the worst happen and the train parts, both sections will come to a stand automatically as the vacuum is destroyed by the open hoses at the parting point and the brakes thus applied.  A nuisance, and traffic will be delayed while it is sorted out, but nobody is hurt and there is no damage beyond a vacuum hose or two being pulled off the pipes.

[Legend]

Thanks The Johnster. I never realised the guard shone white lights forward so that the train crew knew the train was complete . Makes perfect sense when you think about it . The guard is an important guy . I realised this on reading "Tales of the G&SWR" about freight trains on the switchback between Maybole and Girvan , keeping couplings taught.

[Rivercider]

Going back to the first post, it is a complicated subject and with many exceptions.

The 16t minerals were still about in quite large numbers throughout the 1970s, as were 21t mins, and 21t hoppers. 

As traditional coal traffic flows decreased the grey unfitted wagons tended to get withdrawn first.

The British Steel strike of 1980 meant that there was suddenly a large surplus of spare coal wagons, so the grey unfitted 16t mins, and 21t hoppers

were stored in yards all over the place. Most never worked again and were scrapped. The traditional vacuum braked wagon load network

lingered on until about 1984, with bauxite vacuum braked 16t mins used for loads of coal and scrap. After 1984 there were some specific traffic flows

that used bauxite vacuum braked 21t hoppers and 21t mins in certain parts of the country. In a few places unfitted wagons were used until at least 1987, (grey 21t mins to Swansea Docks until 1987). Also some wagons were transferred to the engineers fleet, with or without rebuilding. The vacuum braked 16t mineral used by the civil engineers for spoil traffic had holes cut in the sides to try to prevent overloading. 

 

cheers

Edited March 27, 2018 by Rivercider

[The Johnster]

One comment, the LMS railway did not differentiate fitted and unfitted vehicles based on colour. The LNER may have done so, but never the LMS.

Agreed it may be logical to do so, but it would take several years to get around to repainting the required percentage of the fleet. Think of how many years it took to fix the wagon fleet, so handbrakes were universally on the RHS, decades!

 

Oops.  I had an idea that the LMS had introduced a system based on the LNER's after the joint designs of the late 30s were introduced; the perils of assuming things...

[The Johnster]

Thanks The Johnster. I never realised the guard shone white lights forward so that the train crew knew the train was complete . Makes perfect sense when you think about it . The guard is an important guy . I realised this on reading "Tales of the G&SWR" about freight trains on the switchback between Maybole and Girvan , keeping couplings taught.

You could reverse the side lamps, red forward white to rear, in order to attract the attention of your own crew, anyone else about, and signalmen in boxes you passed, to any emergency that needed the train to be stopped.  I once did this on a freight between Newport and Hereford; vandals dropped a hundredweight or so of ceramic chimney pot through the roof of my van at St Julian's (on the way out of Newport; not hurt but shaken somewhat, it went off like a bomb).  The driver of a parcels train passing on the down stopped at the first of Newport's MAS signals and reported my red lights (I'd reinforced the message with my handlamp) and we were put into the loop at Llantarnam Junction.  The bobby phoned it in and the scrotes were still there when the plod turned up; result!.  I examined the train and agreed with Control that I would proceed to Hereford with a view of the stars through the roof; it was a warm evening and a replacement van was provided for my relief there.  

 

I had the the train stopped because I had no idea what other damage might have been done or if debris was blocking the running lines at St Julian's, but will admit that the pause at Llantarnam helped me to gather my wits!  This, of course, didn't take long as I don't have many...

Edited March 27, 2018 by The Johnster

[Edwin_m]

In a few places unfitted wagons were used until 1986, (grey 21t mins to Swansea Docks).

Definitely 1987 - I had an official ride in the brake van from Annanford up to Gwaun-cae-Gurwen.  We came back down in the back cab of the 37 - I don't think they wanted to risk a student getting in the way of the brake wheel. 

[Rivercider]

Definitely 1987 - I had an official ride in the brake van from Annanford up to Gwaun-cae-Gurwen.  We came back down in the back cab of the 37 - I don't think they wanted to risk a student getting in the way of the brake wheel. 

Yes, I will amend that.

The last I saw were in September 1986

37507 has just arrived at Swansea Burrows with export coal from Onllwyn for Swansea Docks loaded in unfitted grey 21t minerals,

19/9/86

 

cheers 

[JohnH]

What an interesting topic this is!

 

Just a quick question... Most of the photos I've seen of CAO Brake Vans shows them in the 'fitted' Bauxite/Freight Brown livery: Should they have been originally painted in 'unfitted grey'?

[Wickham Green]

What an interesting topic this is!

 

Just a quick question... Most of the photos I've seen of CAO Brake Vans shows them in the 'fitted' Bauxite/Freight Brown livery: Should they have been originally painted in 'unfitted grey'?

By the time they came to be called CAO under TOPS all sorts of things were getting painted 'brown' that you wouldn't expect under the original fitted/unfitted demarcation .......... the other thing to consider was that the LNER who initiated the idea ( or one of its predecessors, perhaps ) recognised that brake vans were actually fitted with brakes under the control of a crew member ( ! ) - so painted them in oxide ...... and this idea stuck into BR days to some extent ....................................... bit of a grey area really .....

[stadman]

 

2) The guard in a brake van is not there 'just in case', though he is responsible for protecting the rear of his train with detonators if it requires an assisting locomotive from the rear.  On a unfitted train or a train with an unfitted portion, the couplings have to be kept as taut as possible when the train is moving and the wagons not allowed to bunch up when the loco slows down or is braking descending a gradient, as this will result in a violent 'snatch' when the loco picks up power again, which can result in a coupling breaking and the train parting*; the guard must apply the van's brake manually to hold the rear of the train back.  For this reason he has to have the same level of route knowledge as the driver, and I can tell you from experience that he has to keep his wits about him out in the country on a dark or foggy night to be sure of where he is!  He is also required to attend to the van's paraffin side lamps, which have red glass shades so that normally 3 red lights are shown to the rear of the train, one tail and the 2 sides, which shine a white light forward so that the loco crew can check that the train is complete.  The shade must be removed so that a white light is shown to the rear if the van is running parallel and not separated by more than one running road, as on a relief or goods road, and in loops, reception sidings, or refuge sidings alongside running lines.  A driver encountering 3 red lights on a dark night has to assume that he is about to be in collision with a goods train; if you are running along a relief line it can look very frightening, especially on a curve where perspectives are shifting, and the driver will be justifiably strident in his comments when he next sees you!  A guard on a van also signals with his handlamp to inform signalmen when his train is 'inside clear' of a passing loop or similar; the signalman can then clear back to accept the fast train you have been put in the loop for!

 

 

Fair comment, something wasn't gone into as trainman D. That said had to ride in brakevan in rear (Escort vehicle ) once for dangerous goods.

[PatB]

What's the old saying? The driver is the guard's chauffeur on the sgnalman's railway .

[giz]

What an interesting topic this is!

 

Just a quick question... Most of the photos I've seen of CAO Brake Vans shows them in the 'fitted' Bauxite/Freight Brown livery: Should they have been originally painted in 'unfitted grey'?

BR standard brake vans were built unfitted, piped or fitted and originally the unfitted ones were grey and the piped and fitted were brown. In later years a lot of fitted and piped vans had their brake gear removed (no need for a van on fitted trains as the guard rode in the loco), some were given a quick wash of grey paint, many weren't so there were a large number of brown unfitted vans about by the 70's. By that time most wagons were being painted brown anyway so it didn't matter.

[Caledonian]

Oops.  I had an idea that the LMS had introduced a system based on the LNER's after the joint designs of the late 30s were introduced; the perils of assuming things...

 

What's probably confusing things is that all LMS goods stock was painted grey until 1936-7, when it was all painted brown/bauxite.

[Wickham Green]

What's probably confusing things is that all LMS goods stock was painted grey until 1936-7, when it was all painted brown/bauxite.

......... in theory, anyway - new stock, undoubtedly - but while it was the intention to get existing vehicles "all painted brown/bauxite" eventually Mr.Hilter intervened and wrecked their plans ( and a few other things too ).

[Fat Controller]

......... in theory, anyway - new stock, undoubtedly - but while it was the intention to get existing vehicles "all painted brown/bauxite" eventually Mr.Hilter intervened and wrecked their plans ( and a few other things too ).

Repainting wagons has never been a priority job; when TOPS codes were been applied in the mid 1970s, many of the wagons had still not received the 'boxed' style of data panel on the side, often not having been repainted since being built in the late 1940s. A trawl through Paul Bartlett's site will throw up many examples.

[The Johnster]

Repainting wagons has never been a priority job; when TOPS codes were been applied in the mid 1970s, many of the wagons had still not received the 'boxed' style of data panel on the side, often not having been repainted since being built in the late 1940s. A trawl through Paul Bartlett's site will throw up many examples.

 

This is fundamentally correct, but I doubt many of those remaining in 'unboxed' condition had paint jobs dating back to the late 40s; a decade or so later would be most likely.  It would be interesting if anyone could nail down the last vehicle to survive in pre-nationalsiton livery; I do not recall seeing any in the 70s, or the 60s for that matter.  The last 7-plank XPO minerals seem to have gone by about 1963.

 

Wagon liveries are a particularly difficult thing to pin down without dated photographic evidence, and the period between 1939 and the mid 60s is particularly difficult.

[hmrspaul]

This is fundamentally correct, but I doubt many of those remaining in 'unboxed' condition had paint jobs dating back to the late 40s; a decade or so later would be most likely.  It would be interesting if anyone could nail down the last vehicle to survive in pre-nationalsiton livery; I do not recall seeing any in the 70s, or the 60s for that matter.  The last 7-plank XPO minerals seem to have gone by about 1963.

 

Wagon liveries are a particularly difficult thing to pin down without dated photographic evidence, and the period between 1939 and the mid 60s is particularly difficult.

No it gets more complex after that . There was a period in the mid 1960s when the grey was discontinued. But it was realised that this was a mistake so it came back for a while. But again the red for unfit came back about 1977 at both Shildon and Ashford http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/mdorebuiltnonnumber

 

As to when the minerals went, there were a few unfit two doors knocking around South Wales in early 1987. And this VB example doesn't have any engineers markings when condemned in May 1990 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/mineralmortonmxv/e12800a8f

 

Paul