BR Wagons - Grey, Bauxite or both?

[Grimly Feendish]

Another question re mineral wagon markings. What was the significance (if an) of the the white diagonal stripe on the side of the wagons?

[Wickham Green]

Another question re mineral wagon markings. What was the significance (if an) of the the white diagonal stripe on the side of the wagons?

Shows you how far you have to tip it before the load slides out of the end door ................................................................ well, it shows which end the end door is, anyway !

[Caledonian]

......... in theory, anyway - new stock, undoubtedly - but while it was the intention to get existing vehicles "all painted brown/bauxite" eventually Mr.Hilter intervened and wrecked their plans ( and a few other things too ).

 

True, true, but I was suggesting that this cunning plan may have been where the udea came from that the LMS were adopting the LNER colour coding.

[PenrithBeacon]

This is fundamentally correct, ... The last 7-plank XPO minerals seem to have gone by about 1963.

 

...

The last PO wagons I saw were in an engineer's train at Queens Park (Kilburn) on a Sunday morning walk to a newsagent in April 1976. They were in a right state though!

[Wickham Green]

True, true, but I was suggesting that this cunning plan may have been where the udea came from that the LMS were adopting the LNER colour coding.

...... except that they abandoned grey when they adopted bauxite.

 

What the LMS DID copy from the LNER - well, what Wolverton Works copied anyway, was painting steel solebars & headstocks black ( some time in the early forties ).

 

My question is 'exactly' what colour was applied to the wartime vans built by the LNER for the LMS ? ...... did they actually bother to apply a different shade of red/brown or just slap on a coat of what they were used to ? ( they certainly got black solebars ! )

[Mark Saunders]

The last PO wagons I saw were in an engineer's train at Queens Park (Kilburn) on a Sunday morning walk to a newsagent in April 1976. They were in a right state though!

 

Ok but what sort was it as PO covers a multitude of types & sizes!

[PenrithBeacon]

Ok but what sort was it as PO covers a multitude of types & sizes!

7 plank minerals 1923 RCH standard

[Caledonian]

...... except that they abandoned grey when they adopted bauxite.

 

What the LMS DID copy from the LNER - well, what Wolverton Works copied anyway, was painting steel solebars & headstocks black ( some time in the early forties ).

 

My question is 'exactly' what colour was applied to the wartime vans built by the LNER for the LMS ? ...... did they actually bother to apply a different shade of red/brown or just slap on a coat of what they were used to ? ( they certainly got black solebars ! )

 

If anything, whatever they had on hand, but given that I have never seen two "bauxite" wagons the same colour in service I'd suggest that even Gunga Din couldn't distinguish between LNER bauxite and LMS bauxite. That said, as I understand it the wartime LMS stock was unpainted apart from a bauxite patch serving as a data panel.

[Wickham Green]

If anything, whatever they had on hand, but given that I have never seen two "bauxite" wagons the same colour in service I'd suggest that even Gunga Din couldn't distinguish between LNER bauxite and LMS bauxite. That said, as I understand it the wartime LMS stock was unpainted apart from a bauxite patch serving as a data panel.

Opens and minerals were, indeed, largely bare wood - but vans always (?) got painted ........... probably a question of keeping the weather out - for the sake of the load or the sake of the plywood body ! 

[The Johnster]

The practice of turning out opens and minerals unpainted was a wartime austerity measure to save paint, a valuable resource, and lasted until early BR days.  AFAIK no vacuum braked wagons were unpainted.  

 

Paint shortages were an issue well into the 50s and, while there was a specified standard for grey and for bauxite, it could not always be adhered to and several different shades of both could be seen.  Not only that, but some paints weathered and faded in a different way to others, so an apparently uniform livery had many variations.

[john new]

My model collection has 2 brown Brake Vans ( LNER style) and two GWR Style Toads, one grey/one brown. Unfortunately with the brown one I didn't spot it was designated as Tavistock RU. Just have to assume it went a wandering like the Worcester one's mentioned in this thread.

 

From reading this thread - The bauxite are theoretically vacuum fitted, the grey unfitted.

 

Therefore, presumably for a Brake Van special they can be mixed up, for example running the two GWR style coupled together, as the guard would still have an operable brake, but used in multiple the bauxite should be marshalled adjacent the engine as you would do for any vac fitted wagons in a part-fitted freight?

[Dunsignalling]

The reason BR discontinued the provision of AVB on new-build brake vans was one of simple logic.

 

If attached to a non-fitted or part-fitted train, the brakes were not connected to the loco, so didn't work. If attached to a fully-fitted consist, they weren't needed as there was enough available brake force in the rest of the train. The only time they would come in handy was on a part-fitted train in which all the unfitted wagons were piped and connected up, a once-in-a-blue-moon scenario.

 

John

Edited February 24, 2019 by Dunsignalling
clarity

[Wickham Green]

 

Therefore, presumably for a Brake Van special they can be mixed up, for example running the two GWR style coupled together, as the guard would still have an operable brake, but used in multiple the bauxite should be marshalled adjacent the engine as you would do for any vac fitted wagons in a part-fitted freight?

YES - any fitted vehicles SHOULD have been marshalled next to the loco ....... but if the train's only composed of brake vans they might not have bothered shuffling them as they'd have been few in number and easily controlled with the rear van's handbrake in the unlikely event of a breakaway.

[The Johnster]

YES - any fitted vehicles SHOULD have been marshalled next to the loco ....... but if the train's only composed of brake vans they might not have bothered shuffling them as they'd have been few in number and easily controlled with the rear van's handbrake in the unlikely event of a breakaway.

 

And in any case the huge majority of bauxite painted brake vans were not actually fitted with AVB, but 'piped through'; this allowed the vehicle to be marshalled in the fitted head of a train and the brake to be operated from the locomotive on vehicles marshalled behind it, and of course allowed the guard of a fully fitted train to apply the vacuum brake with his 'setter', a red painted handle on the end of a junction pipe to the through pipe that you lift to admit air to the system.  A 'piped only' vehicle can be distinguished by the colour it's vacuum pipe is painted, red for fitted and white for piped only.  

 

The marshalling and load of a brake van special will determine the class that the train runs under, and depends on the 'brake force' (in tons, usually about half the weight of the loco) available from the loco.  If it can be run as a class 6, 7, or 8 train, C, D. or E in pre 4 character headcode days, the instanter couplings must be in the short position, and the train can, if composed entirely of longer wheelbase vans, run at up to 60mph.  Otherwise the couplings can be left long, and maximum speed is 25mph.  The guard must ride in the rear van and the normal lamps for the class of train are carried.

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

On 26/03/2018 at 12:03, stadman said:

Grey = unfitted no brakes

Bauxite = fitted automatic vacuum brakes

Yes to both, can be mixed however the fitted portion should be coupled together and immediately behind the locomotive to give maximum brake force.

Any unfitted vehicles to the rear with a brake van (can be fitted unfitted or piped) behind with a guard to apply hand brake just in case.

 

For an (early) preserved railway offering brake van rides, etc would unfitted be preffered to fitted, generally speaking, or would it not matter?

 

I'm looking for something RTR prevalent to the 1960s (with a SR flavour, if possible)...  I have an SR 'Pill Box' already, but in hindsight think it unlikely that early preservation groups would have repainted it so early?  That being said, Rule 1 rules, of course...

 

Many thanks for any help.

[The Johnster]

I think this depends on the individual railway’s Light Railway Order’s operating conditions.  The sort of set up that features brake van rides usually also features very slow handsignalled running over very restricted sites on clipped and spiked points, and some leniency in the matter of automatic brakes, but a qualified man must be aboard the van to operate the brake. 

Edited February 19, 2019 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

I doubt many preserved railways in the 1960s and '70s had vacuum fitted brake vans. BR still wanted them and were getting rid of the unfitted and non standard types quicker. They were also much more expensive to buy. Quite important at the time when most enthusiasts were more interested in trying to save the last of the steam locomotives.

 

Those that had LROs generally used passenger stock. Whilst smaller "steam centre" lines that used brake vans didn't need a LRO. Very few industrials had vacuum brakes and they were the mainstay of most railways at the time. As long as you had a train handbrake then it was fine. That practice ended in the mid to late 1980s.

 

As an example the Middleton Railway used an open wagon and a brake van for it's passenger trains.

 

https://www.middletonrailway.org.uk/index.php/museum-collection/rolling-stock-coaches

 

Regarding Pill Box and Queen Mary brakes, Dinting had one in the 1970s. I remember being fascinated by it when I first saw it as I didn't know they existed.

 

http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/coastnpeak.htm

 

Now on the KWVR.

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7714

 

 

Jason

[greatcoleswoodhalt]

15 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

I doubt many preserved railways in the 1960s and '70s had vacuum fitted brake vans. BR still wanted them and were getting rid of the unfitted and non standard types quicker. They were also much more expensive to buy. Quite important at the time when most enthusiasts were more interested in trying to save the last of the steam locomotives.

 

Those that had LROs generally used passenger stock. Whilst smaller "steam centre" lines that used brake vans didn't need a LRO. Very few industrials had vacuum brakes and they were the mainstay of most railways at the time. As long as you had a train handbrake then it was fine. That practice ended in the mid to late 1980s.

 

As an example the Middleton Railway used an open wagon and a brake van for it's passenger trains.

 

https://www.middletonrailway.org.uk/index.php/museum-collection/rolling-stock-coaches

 

Regarding Pill Box and Queen Mary brakes, Dinting had one in the 1970s. I remember being fascinated by it when I first saw it as I didn't know they existed.

 

http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/raildiary/coastnpeak.htm

 

Now on the KWVR.

 

http://www.ws.rhrp.org.uk/ws/WagonInfo.asp?Ref=7714

 

 

Jason

 

Thank you, Jason - much appreciated!

 

Entirely agree re the focus on purchasing locomotives - Ian NOLAN's Flickr album showing the early days of the Bluebell Railway confirms this - the only hint of a brake van being an ex LSWR 'Road Van' (in BR grey?), taken Aug'62!

 

I don't want to detract from the thread title too much (wagons), but on this basis that unfitted/BR grey is the most plausible, think it probably best to hold-out until Bachmann release their ‘Pill Box’ in BR grey (38-401B) or maybe KMRC release their 'Road Van' in BR grey (SB003F).

Edited February 20, 2019 by jafcreasey

[corneliuslundie]

I am pretty sure that the reason unfitted wagons stayed in use late in South Wales was that fitted wagons could not be used on the coal drops at some of the docks. I am sure The Johnster can clarify.

jonathan

[Fat Controller]

11 hours ago, corneliuslundie said:

I am pretty sure that the reason unfitted wagons stayed in use late in South Wales was that fitted wagons could not be used on the coal drops at some of the docks. I am sure The Johnster can clarify.

jonathan

They were hoists not drops, but otherwise correct. The shipment coal stock also spent weeks standing around loaded until a ship was due, so there was no incentive to have expensive bits of brake-gear hanging about largely unused.

[The Johnster]

Johnster can't clarify except with some dates; coal export ceased at Cardiff in 1965 but continued until 1969 at Barry; coasters supplying coastal power stations at Hayle, Cornwall, New Ross in Eire, and ports in Brittany and Northern Spain.  Export continued for some time at Swansea.  The hoists, not drops, were hydraulically operated and were of 2 general types, a fixed installation that wagons fed into under gravity from embankments and were run off under gravity when empty, and mobile ones that could be moved up and down the wharf, which had to be shunted on to and off of.  Loading could be achieved more quickly with the fixed hoists, at the cost of less flexibility in berthing position for the ship and a lot more space taken up ashore.

 

As a Cardiffian, I tend to regard export coal as something I associate with steam operation.

 

There were several reasons for the large numbers of wagons spending weeks waiting for ships.  The pits usually had limited space at the surface, being hemmed in by narrow valleys, and wanted loaded wagons off the premises as quickly as possible, but raised coal to order, so the wagons shouldn't have been weeks in transit.  They were ordered to provide a mix of coal from different pits or even different seams at the same pit to the customers specification; as coal from different places has different calorific and sulpher content, the requirments of, say, a Bilbao steelworks might be different to Buenos Aires gasworks, or bunkering coal for Aden.  The mixes were achieved by shunting the correct mix of wagons in the sidings at the dock perimeters and the idea was to get the correct combinations of wagons from different pits to the hoists at the time the ship was there, a complex operation and a world now vanished forever, largely unrecorded.

 

In the heyday of the trade, the sheer volume of traffic led to considerable delays, compounded at Cardiff by inadequate hydraulic power to keep the hoists working flat out, but things were running pretty smoothly by BR days as that sort of pressure was largely off; the export coal traffic was run pretty efficiently even if it was dying on it's feet by the 1960s.  The constant cry, however, was for empties; the pits, which were more than happy to take advantage of storing stockpiles of coal for free off their premises sitting in wagons 'in transit', howled with complaint if the supply of empties ran dry.  Understandably; coal has to go somewhere when it's raised or there's no room to raise more and work has to stop, and the only place it had to go in South Wales pits was through the washery and into the wagons.  

 

You never saw storage sidings for empties; they never hung around for long and didn't need storing.

[Fat Controller]

In it's latter years, Swansea's exports were almost all anthracite 'duff' (think mud that you could sometimes burn, if you had enough draught), intended to be formed into briquettes at the destination; thus it was feasible to keep large numbers of loaded wagons close to the docks to be called forward once the ship arrived. On the dock estate itself, there was storage for several hundred loaded wagons just after the bridge carrying Fabien Way. Further holding points were at Burrows Yard, Jersey Marine and Briton Ferry, and then the yards closer to the pits at Llandeilo Jct, Pantyffynnon and Burry Port. The wagons used were almost always BR Standard 21t unfitted minerals; most having been rebodied by the late 1970s. The duff was wet when loaded, and the acidic water would rot through the bottom of the sides.

I can only imagine how complex things must have been when individual pits were owned by different companies, and empties had to be sorted according to their destinations. By the time I would see these trains, from the 1960s, shipping coal was only conveyed in two wagon types, so returning empties was a much simpler affair.

[The Johnster]

Certainly was, dating from the wagon pooling agreements pre-war.  The pits were very concerned at this time that the vital supply of empties would be disrupted, and there was always a sense of urgency to empty wagon workings that was not present with the loaded.  An abiding childhood memory is of watching 56xx steadily plugging away up the 1 in 100 between Crwys Road Bridge, Cardiff, and Wern Ddu (north end Caerphilly Tunnel) with empties, while loaded traffic crept down the relief in the opposite direction.  I lived near the Rhymney, and one of these trains seemed to be permanently within earshot, if not on this line then the slow steady rumble of them on the Roath Branch.

 

'Uncle' Tubs, a neighbour who lived over the back from us, worked in the traffic office at Queen Street on the clerical side of this operation, which even simplified by wagon pooling and the formation of the NCB was extremely complex.  A favourite childhood train watching location was the steps at Crwys Road bridge, where a pannier on which you sometimes got a cab ride shuffled coal wagons about to get the right mix for the ships before tripping them to the docks.  

[john new]

Partly related to the grey livery issue is the end door white stripe. I know it signifies that the wagon had end doors but where were the wagons sorted so that the end doors were the right way round to be tipped? Was it just a simple use of wagon turntables at the destination point or did they leave the pits with all the doors at the same end having been turned there? Something I have not thought to look for before in the books in my library, so something to look up in due course.

[The Johnster]

In South Wales, wagons left the pits with the end doors facing randomly.  End tipping was done mostly (not saying entirely) at the ports, where the wagons were end tipped into the ships’ holds from hoists, which had turntables as you ran the wagons on to the hoists, so it didn’t matter how they were faced leaving the pits.  Most other concerns that did not use hoppers or manual unloading used wagon side tipplers.  
 

The loading hoists at the ports were of two basic types, fixed and mobile.  Fixed hoists were fed from high level sidings curved to be at right angles to the wharf, and were gravity fed, with the approach road to the turntable being downhill.  Once the coal was tipped into the ship’s hold, via a chute which lessened the damaging free fall and which could assist the distribution of the coal in the hold*, the exit road sloped away from the hoist to ground level, where a pilot collected them. 
 

Mobile hoists were able to move along the wharf side, enabling a more efficient use of wharf space by the ships.  The down side was that the loaded wagons had to be fed to the hoist from ground level, with the turntable built in to the hoist platform. Wagons had to be hauled off the hoist when they were empty, and the sidings were usually parallel to the wharf.  They were usually found on the later built docks as they were at their most efficient with larger ships. 
 

 

*The distribution of coal, a loose cargo, in a ship’s hold was critical. as movement of it at sea could affect the vessel’s stability, and did with sometimes tragic consequences.  As well as the movable chutes from the hoists, ‘coal trimmers’ manually ensured correct and secure distribution.  A filthy and dangerous job, this was considered the hardest and most highly skilled form of docker’s work, and was the most highly paid.