Complete Failure at fitting smokebox darts Hornby Black 5

[robmcg]

Dear All,

 

I am at my wits end, as my mother used to say, 55 years ago, when I was about 11 years old.

 

I simply cannot devise a way to insert the smokebox darts into the smokebox of my new weathered Rails/Hornby Black 5 45000, which is to me a lovely model.

 

The darts fell out when I was fitting a staple to replicate the lowered lamp bracket, which wasn't on the model when received.

 

I am thus unable to send it back from NZ and wouldn't want to anyway, over such a minor issue that the modellers of this forum surely do in a twinkling.

 

I dare not use pliers, nor tweezers, as bitter experience is of them disappearing into another dimension, but I lie awake at night trying to devise a foolproof way of achieving the marriage of darts and smokebox.

 

All my attempts have met with failure. I have tried blu-tak on cocktail stick, it defied connection, failure. I have today tried presenting it up with sticky tape as shown in these photos below, which suffers because the handles are not exactly flat and thus are not very willing to retain a good 90 deg angle.  as shown.  Any pressure and the mounting pin goes sideways (as shown).

 

There MUST BE A WAY.

 

My eyesight is not as good as it was when I was 11, but it's still reasonable, oh and I have limited use of my right hand so two-tool methods are out.  I don't really want to ask someone else to do what is proving to be a major threat to my sanity.

 

Ideas welcomed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Cheers and thanks in advance.  

 

typo edits     better have a quiet cup of tea now

 

edit 2 please don't suggest brass 3-piece handles, I have a Comet set and I get palpitations just thinking about threading the handles on the shaft.

Edited April 25, 2018 by robmcg

[Jeff Smith]

I would use serrated needle nose pliers or locking serrated tweezers. As both the dart handles are on one side of the centre I would grip the centre from the opposite side with the jaws at right angles to the centre line. A drop of super glue either in the hole or on the square end; hold in engagement with the hole, rotating with the pliers to align the squares, and push in with a finger.

Edited April 25, 2018 by Jeff Smith

[robmcg]

I would use serrated needle nose pliers or locking serrated tweezers. As both the dart handles are on one side of the centre I would grip the centre from the opposite side with the jaws at right angles to the centre line. A drop of super glue either in the hole or on the square end; hold in engagement with the hole, rotating with the pliers to align the squares, and push in with a finger.

 

Thanks, I fear that my ability with that 'push with the finger' is problematic, as I have but one hand which works normally, the other is a numb clumsy club as a result of injury.

 

I note that from this photo below, and as you have noted, the housing and pin are squared, no doubt to help factory assembly, but we are getting to a very fine 'touch' area in lining-up and push.

 

My model seems to have one of those which didn't receive much glue at the factory, cab steps have fallen off, admittedly with possible nudges from the tender steps when handling the model, but they were easy fixes, unlike the darts.

 

Much appreciated suggestion though, the only pair of pliers I have which might be suitable are serrated but ordinary household 'needle nose' with quite stiff jaws, not loose at all, so might work, but I have great fear of the part being there one minute and gone the next, even over a clean workbench or tray..    It's the hold/push at the exactly correct right-angle which I have trouble with, and which displays my clumsiness. 

 

photo of engine as received

 

 

current state, with darts up-turned on clear sticky tape

 

 

So near and yet so far!      Thanks again.

 

p.s. I have received an offer of help from someone with an opto-visor and two hands, which may prove to to be the most sane solution, but that would turn this 'small' job into a lot of driving and time, so my mind is still open to suggestions from left field or outside the loop, as it were.

 

edit 2; the pliers I have to hand have been used for many years on cars, and now have slightly offset jaws as a result of some insult or other, they have that lovely 'feel' of old familiar tools but in this case won't work.  I shall look for others, if pliers are in fact the best option?

Edited April 25, 2018 by robmcg

[Nick Holliday]

What if you were to drill a small hole in a strip of stiff paper or thin card, which would be a tight fit on the round shaft of the handle, and push the handle into the hole, on the door side of it? You could then get it into the right position, with a drop of glue already in the hole. Superglue might be too quick to allow you to get it seated properly, but only use a tiny drop of whatever you use, as you don't want it to seep out and contact the paper. Once the handle is firmly set, the paper should be easily ripped away, I hope!

[Dunsignalling]

Rob,

 

Given your description of your restricted dexterity, I thought of a method I once used with something else where tweezers etc. kept slipping off. It's not dissimilar to Nick's suggestion above, but a little more developed.

 

I'd suggest using a strip of thin but fairly strong paper (a cigarette paper is ideal), about a centimetre wide by 5cm long. Pierce it in the middle, push the spigot on the dart through it, then fold the rest back over each side of it.

 

This would hopefully let you grip it between finger and thumb of your good hand and insert it without relying on a tool gripping an oddly shaped part.

 

You presumably find inserting drill bits into a pin chuck difficult, but if you own a set of small broaches, very slightly enlarging the hole in the smokebox might ease insertion. (I just spotted the bit where you mention the spigot is square)

 

Conduct dry runs before adding any glue until you are confident in your control over the part.

 

Be very sparing with any adhesive, placing it in the hole with the tip of a cocktail stick and removing any from the surface.

 

After gluing the dart in place, thoroughly soak the paper with water and you should be able to pull/pick the remnants away.   

 

Hope this helps.

 

Regards,

 

John

Edited April 25, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[robmcg]

Thanks gentlemen for those ideas with paper, I gave up a 40-a-day habit in 1979, but am familiar with the materials, thanks John, and Nick,

 

It may be at the fiddly end of my ability, but it certainly is an idea I hadn't thought of, all praise to RMweb.  I will give it a try in the next day or two, when I am feeling brave.

 

FWIW just now I took a last look at it for the evening, it's a beautiful soft Autumn evening here, well, now night, and the reading lamp was shining on the malevolent and extremely small dart assembly.  I think I shall be able to get the square section to pierce a piece of thin strongish water-soluble paper, with luck, and make it so the square edges of the paper are the same orientation as the square of the hole, then either push it in myself, dry run, or find someone else who has better eyes and co-ordination (oddly there are two people I might ask and they are both left-handed, so I can't fail)  and go from there. Alas one is in Australia until the weekend and the other a 1 hour drive away, but having the ideas for a solution is half the battle won.

 

Or see if the pierced then folded-back paper from your idea John is easier.

 

Much appreciated.

Edited April 25, 2018 by robmcg

[Guy Rixon]

I sometimes use jewellers' 3-pronged tweezers for gripping small parts.

[robmcg]

I sometimes use jewellers' 3-pronged tweezers for gripping small parts.

 

Do you think 3-pronged tweezers would grip such a strange-shape?

 

I have proceeded with an attempt to use paper to locate the rectangular pin against the smokebox but the below series of pics show how far I got, not even to the point of being able to hold the handles with any security at all, let alone aim it or place it accurately anywhere.

 

At one stage I moved the piece of tissue paper at slightly more than dead slow through the air and both the tissue and the handles flew off into the air, landing on a tile floor and thankfully not lost.

 

This is not simple!

 

Anyone who can show a technique which they have actually done successfully with these type of Hornby plastic dart handles would be welcomed. Especially if thet could show, say, some tweezers with the handles in place. Or photos of the suggested type of paper 'placement' medium.

 

prepared for the battle

 

 

 

 

 

another quiet cup of tea while I re-group.     It is not looking good.

Edited April 25, 2018 by robmcg

[cctransuk]

Do you think 3-pronged tweezers would grip such a strange-shape?

 

I have proceeded with an attempt to use paper to locate the rectangular pin against the smokebox but the below series of pics show how far I got, not even to the point of being able to hold the handles with any security at all, let alone aim it or place it accurately anywhere.

 

At one stage I moved the piece of tissue paper at slightly more than dead slow through the air and both the tissue and the handles flew off into the air, landing on a tile floor and thankfully not lost.

 

This is not simple!

 

Anyone who can show a technique which they have actually done successfully with these type of Hornby plastic dart handles would be welcomed. Especially if thet could show, say, some tweezers with the handles in place.

 

prepared for the battle

 

Img_1778a_r1200.jpg

 

Img_1780_r1200.jpg

 

Img_1782_r1200.jpg

 

Img_1783_r1200.jpg

 

another quiet cup of tea while I re-group.     It is not looking good.

 

Get hold of a tapered broach and slightly enlarge the hole.

 

The shaft should then fit easily, so you can rotate it to the desired angle and lock it in place with tiny drop of cyano applied with a thin piece of wire.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[Dunsignalling]

Do you think 3-pronged tweezers would grip such a strange-shape?

 

I have proceeded with an attempt to use paper to locate the rectangular pin against the smokebox but the below series of pics show how far I got, not even to the point of being able to hold the handles with any security at all, let alone aim it or place it accurately anywhere.

 

At one stage I moved the piece of tissue paper at slightly more than dead slow through the air and both the tissue and the handles flew off into the air, landing on a tile floor and thankfully not lost.

 

This is not simple!

 

Anyone who can show a technique which they have actually done successfully with these type of Hornby plastic dart handles would be welcomed. Especially if thet could show, say, some tweezers with the handles in place. Or photos of the suggested type of paper 'placement' medium.

 

prepared for the battle

 

Img_1778a_r1200.jpg

 

Img_1780_r1200.jpg

 

Img_1782_r1200.jpg

 

Img_1783_r1200.jpg

 

another quiet cup of tea while I re-group.     It is not looking good.

Jewellers tweezers should do the job, but I thought they might be a bit esoteric and hard-to-find so didn't mention them.

 

I have two, a posh metal set with three prongs and a cheap plastic one with four. They have got me out of trouble more than once. 

 

Given the difficulties you described previously, they should be very a very useful addition to your toolkit.

 

John

Edited April 25, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[robmcg]

Jewellers tweezers should do the job, but I thought they might be a bit esoteric and hard-to-find so didn't mention them.

 

I have two, a posh metal set with three prongs and a cheap plastic one with four. They have got me out of trouble more than once. 

 

Given the difficulties you described previously, they should be very a very useful addition to your toolkit.

 

John

 

 

Thanks John, I used to have a set of dentist's tools which rather curiously were very useful for rebuilding BLMC A series auto gear boxes, but that's another story!

 

A photo of jeweller's pliers or a link to seller might be useful.  

 

Here is the current state of play.  Errant dart handles 1.  Rob 0.

 

 

A very fine model, in my opinion.

 

The sins of the 'collector' ! 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by robmcg

[modfather]

Rob - if you're around the Auckland or Hamilton area I'll willingly offer you a hand, drop me a private message if you'd rather.

[robmcg]

Rob - if you're around the Auckland or Hamilton area I'll willingly offer you a hand, drop me a private message if you'd rather.

 

Thanks modfather, I'm in Kapiti, will exhaust options locally first, very kind offer.  Will PM you if stuck in next week or so.  If I fail in this quest maybe I could courier the model to you and pay for return or something like that, but will see how two local helpers work out.

 

In the meantime, I remembered a couple of self-locking tweezers I had,  but I presume these are unsuitable?

I am very hesitant to try to grip the handles with either.   A quiet 'ping' and , hmmmm.  , unless done in an old ice cream bucket or something?  (I don't have any containers like that) 

 

 

 

 

I include my fingers only to give sense of scale, the smaller tweezers are about 4" long the larger 7" approx.

 

Are jeweller's tweezers smaller?

 

Thanks all.

 

edit; I was wondering about a water-soluble glue between paper and handles, so as to get a more robust way to present the stub of the handles to the hole, but I would not be confident of presenting it up in any way which would 'hold'.

 

I wish I had the dexterity and eyesight I had when I was 15 yrs old!  (Don't we all?)

Edited April 26, 2018 by robmcg

[Dunsignalling]

I think the term jewellers tweezers is a bit misleading as the ones I have aren't like normal tweezers. They have a set of spring steel wires with the ends bent inward, set in a tube operated by a plunger. As you press the plunger, they extend and open, when you release it they close around whatever is between them.  

 

I think I have come across the tool being referred to as a "Pearl Grip" (which probably is what they were originally designed to do) so it might be worth entering that into your search engine. Unfortunately that mainly comes up with a load of stuff on guns and ladies' hair decorations so it's probably best to search craft suppliers' web sites.

 

IIRC, I got one of mine from Squires Tools in Bognor Regis but it was a good few years ago and I don't have an up to date catalogue. Last time I checked their website it looked more like a building site but they may have finished it by now. www.squirestools.com

 

John

 

Edit: I just got into the website, which seems to be functional but still appears to be something of a work in progress. However, there is a picture of the item I have, a "Pearl Grip pick-up tool" Ref.TWO100 on page 27.

 

I haven't a clue what their overseas service is like (or even if they offer one) but at least you'll know what you are looking for.

Edited April 26, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Hi again Rob.

 

if you go into Amazon (UK) and search "Precision Parts Gripper", the required item comes straight up. Under a fiver. 

 

Not sure if Amazon at your end will be the same.

 

John  

Edited April 26, 2018 by Dunsignalling

[robert17649]

Hi again Rob.

 

if you go into Amazon (UK) and search "Precision Parts Gripper", the required item comes straight up. Not sure if your end will be the same.

 

John

 

I nicked a pair of the managements eyebrow tweezers.

Take them and a cocktail stick, line up the darts on a surface.

 

Attach a small blob of superglue gel to one arm of the tweezers and attach the dart to it, on the inside face of the tweezer.

 

Wait a decent interval them pickup tweezers and dart close tweezwers to hold dart them small blob of s/glue gel to shaft of dart insert into hole and hold for a few seconds then let tweezers open and twist glued side off.

 

I have done this a few times withabout75 percent success.

 

It's far from perfect but it only costs a pair of eyebrow tweezers.

[Guy Rixon]

There is another possible approach, but unfortunately it needs two hands. This is to grip one of the dart handles in a pin chuck so that it is securely held but can readily be released when the drat is glued in position.

 

Concerning the "pearl grips", a.k.a. "stone grips", a.k.a jewellers' tweezers, I am confident that these would grip the part but the grip would not be very strong and the part could rotate in the grip as one tried to insert it. I use these tools sometimes to put small machine-screws into position and they are not a perfect answer to the problem. Therefore, I support the suggestion above that the hole for the dart be drilled out to a looser fit.

[Tiptonian]

I apologize in advance if I am saying something silly or have missed the obvious, but have you tried removing the loco body and clamping or propping it up vertically, i.e. standing on its cab with the smokebox pointing up. Whatever method used (self-locking tweezers or blue tack on cocktail stick) would then be gravity assisted. Also, if you take the body off, you could check if the smokebox front is removable from the rest of the body. If that came out, the whole job would be much easier.

[robmcg]

Thanks to all,

 

my current plan, also known as 'Plan B' 

 

is to mount the body face-upwards in a soft jaw vice and place the dart handles near the hole, use very small screwdriver to nudge the rectangular part over the hole, handles at 25 mins and 30 mins on the 'face' and use dexterity to align and push home with finger, 

 

I might combine the body-off with some super-detailing.

 

Certainly there seems no easy nor certain 'way' with this job. I presume they would have been assembled in the factory by hand on a horizontal surface before being fitted to the boiler. With of course perfect light, a clear bench and a million parts.

 

Even as I write this I receive exactly this idea.!  Thankyou, will (eventually) try it.

 

Tiptonian thank you I don't know why I never thought of it either!   

Edited April 26, 2018 by robmcg

[modfather]

Before now I've used a softer glue like copydex to glue things onto cocktail sticks to help position them.

 

Once you've mechanically located the card, the copydex will peel off?

Edited April 26, 2018 by modfather

[robmcg]

I am going to put the model away and re-visit this in about a week. Will post photos of any result, good or bad, when I've had a chance to try the horizontal face method, or my friend with better eyes and hands has had a go.

 

There is certainly no easy simple way to do this.

 

I greatly appreciate the responses. Thankyou.

[robmcg]

Hi All,

 

Apart from offers from others to help out, I have now reached the limit of my patience and skill, and am happy to say, "I can't do this".

 

These pics show how close I got.

 

 

 

 

 

The darts were lost twice having been picked up by finger/surface tension, found after a 5 minute search each time, once on the desk, once on the floor....  and I couldn't see how to position such small things 'just so' .

 

Defeat. The malevolent little handles are visible even in the top picture, bottom right....

Edited April 27, 2018 by robmcg

[ianLMS]

What you needed is found on Page 27 of the Squires Catalogue under Section 2 TWEEZERS, PIN VICES HAND VICES & BENCH VICES page 23 - 40 

 

There is a very handy pick up tool (bottom left of page) which has a tacky blob on the end of a pen like tool - it sticks to the tiny part, and then you can position it where you want it. I have one and its very very useful for this sort of thing.

 

http://www.squirestools.com/tools-and-materials.htm

 

Not sure about overseas shipping though!

[Seanem44]

I would drill the hole a little larger, just a little, so that the fit isn't as snug.  Then it will go in easily.  Just affix with a small bit of glue.

 

Why bother trying to jam a piece into a tight fit, when you can make the fit not as tight? 

Edited May 4, 2018 by Seanem44

[robmcg]

Thanks for those responses, the engine in now in the hands of someone who has better dexterity than me, I will keep you posted, with photos, I hope.  

 

cheers