Ayrshire early 1960s - steam locos and associated models

[37403]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm looking at constructing a layout set in Ayrshire in the last days of steam, circa 1962 and was looking for some advice regarding what locos would have still been running in that period?

 

I'm aware that I could justify Black 5 (Hornby), Mogul-Crab (Bachmann), Standard 5 (Bachmann), Fairburn (Bachmann) and Standard 80000 tanks (Bachmann)

Can anyone advise what other models and locos would still have been seen?

 

thanks for any information

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I'd have the Hornby 812 when that becomes available as a last survivor of a native pre-group class, whether or not the last few were anywhere near Ayrshire in 1962! Likewise I would be tempted to take an M7 and 'Caledonise' it into the likeness of one of the last of the 439 0-4-4Ts..

 

There's no way you wouldn't see an 8F, and the MR/LMS 4F and Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0 must have been about?

[Phil Bullock]

And weren't Standard 4mt 2-6-0s - 76xxx - prevalent?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dubdee/6784716048/in/photolist-9VXy45-qr2p9N-bQKBTX-bkxrGU-6PB8YU-pyKo46-xbwDbv-4uZrXw-x79SkR-wNTNty-KASNGR-qM5vnF-bwHQ8K-byjECt-5w9vfp-e3ZdKw-J4pjmq-GnbdfP-wNZmwb

 

Phil

 

[Flying Pig]

Searching for shed allocations found these pages

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/ayr-1959-1966.html

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/2013/04/hurlford-1959-1966.html

 

One class characteristic of the area was the LMS 2P. From the above links they seem to have been just clinging on in 1960, but out of service by 1962 so if you're being strict about your period they aren't for you.

[ian@stenochs]

Hi Folks,

 

I'm looking at constructing a layout set in Ayrshire in the last days of steam, circa 1962 and was looking for some advice regarding what locos would have still been running in that period?

 

I'm aware that I could justify Black 5 (Hornby), Mogul-Crab (Bachmann), Standard 5 (Bachmann), Fairburn (Bachmann) and Standard 80000 tanks (Bachmann)

Can anyone advise what other models and locos would still have been seen?

 

thanks for any information

Hi,

 

All my train spotting was spent in Ayrshire and I still have my Ian Allan’s with a lot of underlined numbers! The early 60s saw most of the Caley 0-6-0s and 2P 4-4-0s cleared out to be replaced by standards and ex LMS types.

From 1962 most of the coal trains were either Mogul or Black 5 turns with a few WD 2-8-0s. I never saw any Stanier 8Fs but we did get the odd WD 2-10-0s on the long road to Dumfries. Passenger turns were mostly in the hands of multiple units but with some loco hauled trains usually with standard or Fairburn 2-6-4tanks. We did get some LNE V1/3 2-6-2tanks displaced by the Glasgow blue trains but they didn’t last long. Equally there were a few B1s at Ayr but were not well liked due to their poor brakes!

You cannot go far wrong with Moguls, the Hughes Fowler ‘crab’ was a there to the end on coal but the Standard 3 & 4 were also quite common,

Ian.

 

[Steamport Southport]

Allocations for Ayr here.

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=31

 

 

 

 

As it points out there may be mistakes and omissions, but it's a really useful guide.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited June 5, 2018 by Steamport Southport

[pH]

For Ayr shed in 1962, I think your original list, plus a few mentioned in other posts, covers most things. 

 

I think the most obvious class missing from engines appearing in and round Ayr in 1962 are the Jubilees. At least some of Corkerhill’s were still in service in 1962, and were used on services to Ayr and Stranraer, plus Corkerhill would sometimes use engines from English sheds while they were laying over in Glasgow. If you go forward from 1962, after the closure of the ‘Port Road’ in 1965, you could run Kingmoor Britannias as appearing regularly on the Stranraer boat trains – piloted by Stanier 5s south from Ayr!

 

34theletterbetweenB&D has mentioned the Caley 812 and 439 classes at Ayr. They were certainly still around in 1962, though I’m not sure how many were still working. There were also ‘Jumbos’, though there’s no RTR model of those. No 8Fs were shedded at Ayr, and were almost unknown there, though I’ve seen it written that the odd one would turn up if an Ayr engine had failed on a Carlisle trip, and there is a picture of one south of Ayr with a weedkilling train. As far as I know, Ivatt 4 Moguls were never shedded at Ayr. It did have Ivatt 2 Moguls for a short time, but all after 1962. It had a Standard 2 Mogul for all of 1962. 

 

If you want to include ‘oddities’, you have a few possibilities – Polmadie Duchesses on Ayr race specials and the occasional Leeds A3 borrowed by Corkerhill for example. There also used to be a duty for an engine supplied by Kingmoor which worked into Stranraer overnight from Carlisle on the Northern Irish boat train, then filled in with a return trip to Glasgow before working back to Carlisle the next night. I don’t know if that was still in operation in 1962, though. The usual engine for this was a Clan, but Derek Cross has written of an unrebuilt Patriot between Girvan and Stranraer on what I presume was that  duty. Apart from the B1s, Ayr also had another couple of ex-LNER engines – J37s. They were there for most of 1962, though they did even less work than the B1s.

 

I presume from the OP that you’re interested in Ayr and area. However, Ayr was not the only shed in Ayrshire – Hurlford and Ardrossan were also in the county. They had, basically, the same type of engines on their allocations as Ayr, with a somewhat different balance, of course. Hurlford did have a trio of Ivatt 4 Moguls for a year – 1962! Hurlford and Ardrossan both had Ivatt 2 Moguls in the 1960s. A couple of Hurlford’s were there during 1962. “Oddities” are J36s – both sheds had members of this class during 1962.

 

However, ian@stenochs has hinted at something else – the ex-G&SWR mainline between Glasgow and Carlisle ran through Ayrshire. If you’re including that, your range of possibilities expands considerably. However, from your OP, I’m guessing you’re not, so I won’t go there.

Edited June 5, 2018 by pH

[37403]

Thanks very much for all the information.

Regarding the standards, I'm a not up to speed with the various different types despite a bit of research. I've seen images of standard 3MT locos (not tank), does anyone produce these?

 

That website link is brilliant. Even if slightly incorrect, its a wealth of information

[DCB]

The Crabs were preferred for the coal trains in the early 60s, they started on expresses and worked their way down!

I remember std 4MT 80000 series tanks at Dumfries in around 1965, but the old GSWR line saw LMS Pacifics and LNER A1/2/3

and probably A4 power as well as Britannias and Clans. Jubilees, 7p Patriots and Scots were passenger power with Black 5s and Std 5s.

I don't think Br Std 3MTs were used, except on railtours. Jubilees were used on goods in te 1940s but went back to predominantly

passenger duties when Crewe went mad and churned out more 5MTs tan anyone had any use for. I don't think 8Fs appeared very often,

there were only about 3 on the Scr. I don't think 9F 92000s were common but the ex WD 90000 series may have been found and definitely the

WD 2-8-0s

The 2Ps were express passenger power when introduced but were relegated to locals, Compounds were also found but were actually used

as Mixed traffic being quite useful as freight power due to their ability to work as a 3 cyl simple loco when starting.

However these 4-4-0s were summer only power by the late 1950s spending most of their time stored.

There is an excellent series of books on the old GSWR by David L Smith well worth reading. Especially the yin they call the Mad McCann,

who took a std 4 along at 60 mph to look for a tree fallen across the line, and tales of wagons running in grooves in the ground beyond

the end of their siding.

[ian@stenochs]

 

Ayrshire Locos! 1890 & 1960 style both shedded on Hurlford shed.

 

Ian.

Edited June 7, 2018 by ian@stenochs

[ian@stenochs]

Thanks very much for all the information.

Regarding the standards, I'm a not up to speed with the various different types despite a bit of research. I've seen images of standard 3MT locos (not tank), does anyone produce these?

 

That website link is brilliant. Even if slightly incorrect, its a wealth of information

The standard 3MT 2-6-0, 77000 series, were mostly shedded at Hurlford and worked passenger and freight turns until the dmus did away with the former. These were a great favourite with me as they looked so modern compared with the Caley 0-6-9s they replaced.

 

The Ayr - Glasgow and a Largs - Glasgow Lines were very early converts to DMU working with the 2Ps and 2-6-4 tanks being relegated to the cross country and branch services until they succumbed to Beeching. After 62 the scene was dominated by Hughes Fowler moguls and Black 5s on coal trains which formed the bulk of the loco hauled traffic.

 

Mention has been made of David Smiths books but they cover an earlier period, G&SWR and LMS, Still great reading about the railway and its men. Derek Cross lived at Maybole, just outside Ayr, and photographed and wrote about the area in the 50s and 69s, mostly in the magazine press but some picture books too. They are worth seeking out. Some more info here http://www.gswra.org/redirect.html

 

Don’t forget too that steam lasted right up to the 70s on the NCB Lines with Barclay locos predominating. The recent rtr pugs from Hatton includes West Ayr no10!

 

Ian.

Edited June 7, 2018 by ian@stenochs

[37403]

Gents,

 

Thank you all so much for the wealth of information, this site is fantastic for these sort of queries.

 

The standard 3MT 2-6-0  77000 series doesn't appear to be available in model form (oo)? Is this the same as the Ivatt 2-6-0?

[Jamie]

Gents,

 

Thank you all so much for the wealth of information, this site is fantastic for these sort of queries.

 

The standard 3MT 2-6-0  77000 series doesn't appear to be available in model form (oo)? Is this the same as the Ivatt 2-6-0?

No,

Believe there was a DJH kit for the type - can't recall if we have one in the Alloa fleet or not.

 

 

But I reckon Rule 1 of modelling the ex-GSW in this period is If in doubt, use a Black 5 or 'Mogul'. Hard to go wrong that way!

[a320sim]

Might be worth getting this for lots of useful photos of locos and train formations:-

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Glasgow-South-Western-Lines/dp/0711027951

[flubrush]

Don’t forget too that steam lasted right up to the 70s on the NCB Lines with Barclay locos predominating. The recent rtr pugs from Hatton includes West Ayr no10!

 

 

 

I can confirm that.  I remember filming in the Dalmellington area in the early 70s and being woken early morning by an NCB tank working wagons on the Dalmellington line.

 

Jim.

[DCB]

Gents,

 

Thank you all so much for the wealth of information, this site is fantastic for these sort of queries.

 

The standard 3MT 2-6-0  77000 series doesn't appear to be available in model form (oo)? Is this the same as the Ivatt 2-6-0?

 

The Standard 4 76000 was the same as the Ivatt class 4 2-6-0 with a few mainly cosmetic changes.

The rare 77000 3MT had a modified GWR no 3 boiler first fitted to 2-4-2 tanks in 1902. It wasn't a brilliant design but a very

under stressed reliable beast which I believe spent most of their time in the North of England Preston to Newcastle sort of area

until one escaped to the SR for a railtour

and the NE didn't want it back. It was standard with the 3MT 2-6-2Ts do the SR had no problems with spares

[pH]

The rare 77000 3MT had a modified GWR no 3 boiler first fitted to 2-4-2 tanks in 1902. It wasn't a brilliant design but a very under stressed reliable beast which I believe spent most of their time in the North of England Preston to Newcastle sort of area

until one escaped to the SR for a railtour and the NE didn't want it back. 

 

There were 20 77xxxs. The NER had 10 and the ScR had 10. 6 of the Scottish ones were shedded at Hurlford at various times, including 4 which were never shedded anywhere else. 

[Ray M]

And weren't Standard 4mt 2-6-0s - 76xxx - prevalent?

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/dubdee/6784716048/in/photolist-9VXy45-qr2p9N-bQKBTX-bkxrGU-6PB8YU-pyKo46-xbwDbv-4uZrXw-x79SkR-wNTNty-KASNGR-qM5vnF-bwHQ8K-byjECt-5w9vfp-e3ZdKw-J4pjmq-GnbdfP-wNZmwb

 

Phil

Fist glimpse of that photo, and i thought it had a tension lock coupler on the back

[Mad McCann]

Nah, that’s an AJ...

[bluesparkdave]

I believe a Crosti Standard 9F turned up on the GSWR main line on one occasion. I can only just remember seeing the last of the Moguls in 1966 at Waterside but I certainly remember the pugs which worked until 1978 on the ex Dalmellington Iron Company system, being a native of Dalmellington myself.

[37403]

Thanks for the information throughout this thread.

What ready to run coaching stock would be seen in this era?

Suburban/mk1/lms stock?

[The Johnster]

Have a look at Danstercivicman’s ‘Stranraer’ topic on Layout Topics; he’s done a good bit of the work for you in terms of coaching stock. 

 

The 77xxx BR Standard Class 3MT moguls were an adaptation of the 76xxx Class 4MT (themselves fairly closely based on the LMS Ivatt 4MT Moguls) with a smaller boiler for reduced weight and increased route availability.  They were designed at Swindon and are in many ways the mogul version of Swindon’s 3MT 2-6-2 tank, the 82xxx.  

 

The boiler used on both classes was not the Swindon no.3, but a domeless version of the no.2 as used on the 5101 Large Prairie and 56xx, also some rebuilt ex-Rhymney and Barry Railway locos.  The Swindon no.3 was indeed first used on a 2-4-2 tank in 1902 but is better known from the ‘Small Prairies’, 44xx, 45xx, and 4575 Classes.

 

If I were kitbashing a 77xxx, which thank the Lord I’m not, sir, a good starting point would be Baccy 76xxx with the boiler cut off and replaced with an altered Swindon no.2 with the GW safety valve bonnet and top feed it ofand replaced with a suitable dome.  Sourcing this no.2 would be difficult as AFAIK all RTR or kit locos with this boiler are tank engines and the boiler top is cast/moulded integrally with the tank tops.  You’d then have to worry about the right chimney, as I think both the 76xxx and 82xxx are different; the boiler is pitched much lower on the 82xxx. 

[Steamport Southport]

On 02/06/2019 at 19:28, 37403 said:

Thanks for the information throughout this thread.

What ready to run coaching stock would be seen in this era?

Suburban/mk1/lms stock?

 

Pretty much so. By 1962 probably more likely to be BR Mark Ones outnumbering the earlier coaching stock. Most of the earlier wooden bodied stock would be gone or on it's way out.

 

Don't forget the DMUs and even the Railbuses of the type made by Heljan and Dapol.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_railbuses

 

I'm not that up on Scottish Region DMUs but there should be information here.

 

https://www.railcar.co.uk/type/

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

Good number of Staniers and a smattering of Thompson’s and Gresleys as well.  By 1962 BR lined maroon livery was well entrenched, but one or two crimson/cream might still be on the scene. 

[danstercivicman]

Yup there was a train from Newcastle to Stranraer.  Appears Stanier 5MT or B1 hauled from Carlisle-Newcastle and Stanier 5MT mainly from Carlisle to Stranraer.   Appears a mix of Gresley, older ex LNER and Thompson  stock.

 

Its taken a couple of books to join up the dots in terms of services.  Everything else is ex LMS stock and BR.mk1 from what I can tell.

 

I’m no expert by any means!!!