Coulsdon Works

[thegreenhowards]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Thanks for the info Andy,

 

it's a lot cheaper and you get a finer result, by soldering up a set of angle iron and Queen posts from brass L section. It's not as difficult as it sounds. Most Gresley / Thompson carriages had the identical spacing between the queen posts or the needle beams, Hornby had a couple of attempts before getting it right on the non gangway stock. How does the Mousa compare with the SP in the dimensions of the windows? A shame a lot of SP stuff is no longer available, I would snap up another Thompson open third, the one I have has had the valance removed as per prototype.

 

For the brake inserts, I build the narrower van compartment and passenger compartment as two seperate four sided boxes, then join them together. The top of the two bulkheads that join together are slotted, so that when glancing through the top lights the van compartment looks to be open. The bulkheads can't be seen through either the guards door or from the passenger compartments.

I can see that would work well if you’re building the whole vehicle, but I was using a donor which makes that more difficult.

 

Quote

 

Re destination boards, I haven't looked close enough at East coast mainline workings to know anything conclusive. A modeler I know, made the same assumption about one way boards for the Manchester Marylebone expresses, apparently based on LMS practice of all things! He was wrong to do so and fortunately exploded, never to be seen again.

With regard to Southern Pride they look pretty similar to me. Hopefully this demonstrates the difference. The windows are the same size although the spacing is marginally different on the brake.

 

The SP kit is more complete than Mousa’s and half the price - brilliant value.

 

 

He still has most of his stuff available although I see that the Thompson RTOs are out of stock at present. He does seem to get stuff back in stock so keep checking. Sadly his ordering process is prehistoric! If you’re desperate for an RTO PM me as I have a ‘CT3’ (Square window RTO) in stock which is well down the to do list.

 

Andy

[65179]

7 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

I wouldn't even assume it is a whole train. For a lot of these, I have multiple images of the same train but only the one of this example. The best that can be said is that the locomotive is facing east but could later be at the west end if involved in shunting. I wouldn't dismiss all roof boards based on one obviously mismatched example, Manchester Liverpool seems perfectly reasonable for the location, different boards were usually carried for both directions of travel. However, it was unusual for strengtheners to be fitted with roof boards, they were usually carried in the van compartment of a brake. It is possible that they were added for the outbound journey and left in place coming back. Obviously it's not going to be a B7 on the boat train but that's not what I said.

 

Thanks Andrew. Useful to have that clarified.  I've very few clear shots of relevant roofboards. 

 

A B7 on the Boat train is unlikely  but it would be nice to think not completely out of the question. Assuming this is 1949 or very early 1950 then any replacement Darnall provided if the booked Immingham K3/D11/K2/B1 was declared a failure would only have to pootle to Lincoln before the booked loco for the next leg  took over. They were still well regarded by GC men.

 

Simon

 

 

 

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

I can see that would work well if you’re building the whole vehicle, but I was using a donor which makes that more difficult.

 

With regard to Southern Pride they look pretty similar to me. Hopefully this demonstrates the difference. The windows are the same size although the spacing is marginally different on the brake.

 

 

The SP kit is more complete than Mousa’s and half the price - brilliant value.

 

 

 

He still has most of his stuff available although I see that the Thompson RTOs are out of stock at present. He does seem to get stuff back in stock so keep checking. Sadly his ordering process is prehistoric! If you’re desperate for an RTO PM me as I have a ‘CT3’ (Square window RTO) in stock which is well down the to do list.

 

Andy

 

 

 Thanks again for the pictures very helpful,

 

They were very handsome carriages in my opinion. Leicester had a couple of sets, one was always spare. They worked daily between Leicester and Manchester and return. They were hardly ever seen south of Leicester.

 

I can see that would work well if you’re building the whole vehicle, but I was using a donor which makes that more difficult.

 

I have used the same method on donor vehicles, the outer brass ends are dummies, the roof with donner ends is an inverted U that fits over the four sided box. The resulting conversion is incredibly strong and has the advantage that the width across the carriage and the tumblehome are bang on as the ends are filed to exactly match the brass dummy inner ends.

 

42 minutes ago, 65179 said:

 

Thanks Andrew. Useful to have that clarified.  I've very few clear shots of relevant roofboards. 

 

A B7 on the Boat train is unlikely  but it would be nice to think not completely out of the question. Assuming this is 1949 or very early 1950 then any replacement Darnall provided if the booked Immingham K3/D11/K2/B1 was declared a failure would only have to pootle to Lincoln before the booked loco for the next leg  took over. They were still well regarded by GC men.

 

Simon

 

 

 

 

Evening Simon,

 

the fact that you have a radom corridor third, not within the main formation, carrying destination boards, would suggest a train of some importance.  The boards would have had to come from another carriage with a van compartment attached to the main formation. It was not normal to attach destination boards to strengtheners unless they were a portion  travelling alone to a particular destination or platform loading restrictions were in place.

 

I'm not clear about the significance of the BS gangway, it may reflect simple cascading. If this was the boat train, there may not be a greater reason, or perhaps it reflected a time in the past when GER carriages were part of the formation. Alternatively, they may represented a portion that at some time, on some other express were detached and reattached to an LMS train to reach their final destination.

[thegreenhowards]

I’ve now finished the O gauge BT apart from the final transfers which I’m leaving for now while I consider which of the many possibilities Andrew threw at me to go for for. Final choice will be influenced if I find some second hand cheap(er)  transfers!

 

Here is the finished article.

 

And here it is with my only other item of O gauge rolling stock - an N1 (this I bought like this and apart from a service I’ve left well alone).

 

Following the help people on here gave me earlier, I added the rain strips out of plasticard.

 

And the ‘Smoking’ oblongs came from John Peck/ precision labels Who did me a Superb 4mm/7mm LNER sheet for a very reasonable price. Every picture I found seemed to have a different combination of windows for smoking, so I went with the diagram. I couldn’t find any pictures with the roundels as well as the oblongs, so I’ve omitted them for now, but would love an excuse to include them if anyone knows of a suitable picture.

 

I think they set it off nicely.

 

Andy

 

Edited September 9, 2020 by thegreenhowards
Typos

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

I’ve now finished the O gauge BT apart from the final transfers which I’m leaving for now while I consider which of the many possibilities Andrew threw at me to go for for. Final choice will be influenced if I find some second hand cheap(er)  transfers!

 

Here is the finished article.

 

 

 

 

And here it is with my only other item of O gauge rolling stock - an N1 (this I bought like this and apart from a service I’ve left well alone).

 

 

 

Following the help people on here gave me earlier, I added the rain strips out of plasticard.

 

 

And the ‘Smoking’ oblongs came from John Peck/ precision labels Who did me a Superb 4mm/7mm LNER sheet for a very reasonable price. Every picture I found seemed to have a different combination of windows for smoking, so I went with the diagram. I couldn’t find any pictures with the roundels as well as the oblongs, so I’ve omitted them for now, but would love an excuse to include them if anyone knows of a suitable picture.

 

 

I think they set it off nicely.

 

Andy

 

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

It looks a billion times better with the teak painted cornice and rain guards. Pucker rainstrip next?

 

Judging by the quaterlights and drop light in that end compartment, it looks like somebody had a nasty sneezing accident, I wouldn't want to sit in there, even on my hanky.

Edited September 9, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

17 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

It looks a billion times better with the teak painted cornice and rain guards. Pucker rainstrip next?

 

Judging by the quaterlights and drop light in that end compartment, it looks like somebody had a nasty sneezing accident, I wouldn't want to sit in there, even on my hanky.

Thanks Andrew,

 

The glazing was not my finest hour! Lesson learnt - don’t glue all the Interior in position before glazing! The seats are balsa strips painted red. Once in place access for glazing was fiddly and I struggled. As a result the glue and glaze got everywhere. I tried to clean it up but there is still a covering in places. I should have another go at cleaning it up but it doesn’t show from normal viewing distances.

 

Andy

[Headstock]

8 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Thanks Andrew,

 

The glazing was not my finest hour! Lesson learnt - don’t glue all the Interior in position before glazing! The seats are balsa strips painted red. Once in place access for glazing was fiddly and I struggled. As a result the glue and glaze got everywhere. I tried to clean it up but there is still a covering in places. I should have another go at cleaning it up but it doesn’t show from normal viewing distances.

 

Andy

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

I always glaze first and then add the seats. I don't use glue, rather industrial strength double sided cellotape or thar carpet stuff. It takes a bit longer cutting up the strips but the results produces pristine glazing with less stress, no dodgy bits and it never ever comes unstuck.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Headstock

[Jon4470]

24 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

 

I always glaze first and then add the seats. I don't use glue, rather industrial strength double sided cellotape or thar carpet stuff. 

 

Never thought of using the carpet tape....may give it a go on my next coach.

Do you stick it on the glazing first or the coach?

 

Jon

[Headstock]

50 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Never thought of using the carpet tape....may give it a go on my next coach.

Do you stick it on the glazing first or the coach?

 

Jon

 

Afternoon Jon,

 

I stick it to the carriage and press it down by rubbing with a pencil or other tool, then I cut the glazing to shape and check the fit. I then peel off the backing strip and put the glazing in place. Once it is pressed down it will not move, so you need to get it in the right place but it's not that hard to do. Carpet tape is super strong but double sided sticky tape will do the job.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Andy,

 

I always glaze first and then add the seats. I don't use glue, rather industrial strength double sided cellotape or thar carpet stuff. It takes a bit longer cutting up the strips but the results produces pristine glazing with less stress, no dodgy bits and it never ever comes unstuck.

That sounds like a good idea. I’ll try that next time.

[Jon4470]

1 hour ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Jon,

 

I stick it to the carriage and press it down by rubbing with a pencil or other tool, then I cut the glazing to shape and check the fit. I then peel off the backing strip and put the glazing in place. Once it is pressed down it will not move, so you need to get it in the right place but it's not that hard to do. Carpet tape is super strong but double sided sticky tape will do the job.

 

Thanks Andrew.

 

If i’d Have guessed I would have done it the other way round .... sticky stuff on the window. No doubt I would then have discovered why you do it the other way

 

Jon

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Thanks Andrew.

 

If i’d Have guessed I would have done it the other way round .... sticky stuff on the window. No doubt I would then have discovered why you do it the other way

 

Jon

 

You certainly would, because you need to add the cut up sticky strips fairly close up to the edge of the window, so when the glazing goes on, it is held flush with the window edge and does not produce a gap. You would never achieve this the other way around. When I get to the glazing stage on the next carriage, I will try and take some photographs, they will make everything clearer, pardon the pun.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Headstock

[thegreenhowards]

Longer term readers of this thread will remember that last November I was hacking around Pullman cars to make some of the examples which ran on the ECML but are not made by Hornby. I made Car 107 out of an older Hornby ‘Railroad’ Pullman But that meant a lot of hacking around of the roof and underframe as the old Hornby cars are based on the all steel versions And the interior is not lit which stands out when it’s running with other Hornby cars. For my second attempt, I’ve tried cutting up a Hornby ‘super detailed’ Pullman to make car 105 (which was identical to car 107).

 

I started this before Xmas, but it’s been sat waiting for me to finish it off for many months. I’m trying to finish off a few projects at the moment, so work finally got round to this.

 

Here it is as cut up and looking rather a mess.

 

 

I then take some of the excellent Precision Labels Pullman renumbering decals as below.

 

These are applied over the mess and hey presto...

 

We have one fairly convincing Car 105. I really need to line round the oval window but I’m not sure how to do that, so it may have to stay like this.

 

Andy

 

[John Tomlinson]

I haven't looked, but is there perchance an oval lining for the window on the HMRS sheet?

 

Excellent result on Car 105.

 

The other thing worth considering on the older Hornby Railroad models is the Keen Pullman bogie, an inexpensive but nicely moulded plastic job, which comes complete with bits to mount it in the right place, and adds a lot to these older vehicles. Below, the Brake I did years ago before Hornby's new range, now the front  Parlour coach is awaiting painting,  then curtains and flush glazing, to be used as a strengthener in my "old" set.

 

John.

 

Edited August 13, 2023 by John Tomlinson
Added pic of older type coach.

[thegreenhowards]

5 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

I haven't looked, but is there perchance an oval lining for the window on the HMRS sheet?

 

Excellent result on Car 105.

 

The other thing worth considering on the older Hornby Railroad models is the Keen Pullman bogie, an inexpensive but nicely moulded plastic job, which comes complete with bits to mount it in the right place, and adds a lot to these older vehicles. Below, the Brake I did years ago before Hornby's new range, now the front  Parlour coach is awaiting painting,  then curtains and flush glazing, to be used as a strengthener in my "old" set.

 

John.

Good idea on HMRS, but while they have some curves, there are no ovals. I think I may need to invest in a lining pen for my Klondike, so this could be tackled as well if I can master it.

 

I’m slightly Confused by the bogies. The Hornby Railroad ones look very similar to the ‘full fat’ ones apart from a hole in the axle box (As below). Can one not just fill the hole?

 

Of course the other solution is to model one of the cars which got Gresley bogies and clip in some from a Railroad Gresley as on Car 81 below. This one was done some time ago before I knew about Precision labels. I think I may have to upgrade it as compared with car 77 the crests look very ‘monochrome’.

 

[John Tomlinson]

I think the answer is that Hornby Railroad Pullmans have 8' 6'' wheelbase bogies, whereas the real thing is 10'. So plugging the holes makes for a cosmetic improvement, but doesn't help with the 6mm shortfall. I've done up my Railroad Parlour Car, now "Juana", simply because it has sat in the cupboard for several years, plus I had a set of Keen bogies as well. My two Railroad Brakes were done up to go with four Southern Pride Mk1 Pullmans I made many years ago - prior to the Bachmann issue - as I wanted a "Master Cutler" circa.1960 rake. Obviously you could buy the lot in quality RTR now.

 

Hornby new Pullmans have the correct size bogies, and of course the Gresley bogies are 8' 6'' which scale correctly on the new Hornby Gresley range.

 

I've never understood why Bachmann made the bogies for their first range of Thompsons with 8' wheelbase, as I'd thought these should be 8' 6'' as the Gresleys?

 

Please tell me if I've got this all wrong.

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

12 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

I think the answer is that Hornby Railroad Pullmans have 8' 6'' wheelbase bogies, whereas the real thing is 10'. So plugging the holes makes for a cosmetic improvement, but doesn't help with the 6mm shortfall. I've done up my Railroad Parlour Car, now "Juana", simply because it has sat in the cupboard for several years, plus I had a set of Keen bogies as well. My two Railroad Brakes were done up to go with four Southern Pride Mk1 Pullmans I made many years ago - prior to the Bachmann issue - as I wanted a "Master Cutler" circa.1960 rake. Obviously you could buy the lot in quality RTR now.

 

Hornby new Pullmans have the correct size bogies, and of course the Gresley bogies are 8' 6'' which scale correctly on the new Hornby Gresley range.

 

I've never understood why Bachmann made the bogies for their first range of Thompsons with 8' wheelbase, as I'd thought these should be 8' 6'' as the Gresleys?

 

Please tell me if I've got this all wrong.

 

John.

John,

 

I’d never noticed the difference in length on the Pullman bogies but I’ve just been and measured them and you’re right (of course!).  I have to say that replacing these bogies on these Railroad coaches is a bit like ‘polishing a tu.d’! So as I hadn’t noticed it previously I’ll live with the shorter length but I may stop ‘polishing’ other bits! On my Car 107 which had a major conversion I might steel some off a super detail Pullman.

 

As for the Bachmann Gresley bogies, I wasn’t aware that they were short. I’ve just measured some of mine and they all seem to be 8’3” which is near enough for me. These were on the old style Thompsons but (generally) later batches of them. Were there some earlier even shorter ones?

 

Andy

[John Tomlinson]

1 minute ago, thegreenhowards said:

John,

 

I’d never noticed the difference in length on the Pullman bogies but I’ve just been and measured them and you’re right (of course!).  I have to say that replacing these bogies on these Railroad coaches is a bit like ‘polishing a tu.d’! So as I hadn’t noticed it previously I’ll live with the shorter length but I may stop ‘polishing’ other bits! On my Car 107 which had a major conversion I might steel some off a super detail Pullman.

 

As for the Bachmann Gresley bogies, I wasn’t aware that they were short. I’ve just measured some of mine and they all seem to be 8’3” which is near enough for me. These were on the old style Thompsons but (generally) later batches of them. Were there some earlier even shorter ones?

 

Andy

Re. the Railroad Pullmans, it is just as you say like "polishing a txxd". No one would do it now, and my Parlour coach is being finished simply because I had both it and the Keen bogies in my cupboard, also it will run alongside similarly "polished" Brakes. I think these would look a bit grim sitting next to Hornby's latest ranges. The pricing of the newer cars on ebay I find remarkable, you can get some of them for under £20 making them prize candidates for your Precision Labels gambit as with 171, and I can only conclude they must have made an awful lot to push the price down.

 

You may well be right about the first Bachmann Thompson bogies. Mine are tucked away somewhere, and I'd never noticed them being short until Clive Mortimore pointed out they were the right size for the dia.1/558 diesel brake tender. It really doesn't notice as they trundle round the layout. As far as I know, they are all the same size.

 

John.

[Clive Mortimore]

30 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Re. the Railroad Pullmans, it is just as you say like "polishing a txxd". No one would do it now, and my Parlour coach is being finished simply because I had both it and the Keen bogies in my cupboard, also it will run alongside similarly "polished" Brakes. I think these would look a bit grim sitting next to Hornby's latest ranges. The pricing of the newer cars on ebay I find remarkable, you can get some of them for under £20 making them prize candidates for your Precision Labels gambit as with 171, and I can only conclude they must have made an awful lot to push the price down.

 

You may well be right about the first Bachmann Thompson bogies. Mine are tucked away somewhere, and I'd never noticed them being short until Clive Mortimore pointed out they were the right size for the dia.1/558 diesel brake tender. It really doesn't notice as they trundle round the layout. As far as I know, they are all the same size.

 

John.

See every thing is all my fault.

 

They do not look too short if the train is traveling over a scale 10mph. And you are a far cleverer man than me if you can measure them with a ruler when whizzing around at a scale 90mph.

 

I know it was me who pointed out how they were better for the Stratford box brake tender than a standard 8ft 6ins Gresely bogie, where they do notice as they don't stick out under the buffer beam but on a coach I cannot tell they are wrong. Do we get are knickers in a twist over somethings that are not visibly that wrong?

 

On the other hand there are "modellers" who even when shown the cab door on the new Heljan class 25 is all wrong tell me to shut up. 

[John Tomlinson]

Hi Clive, no I don't get my underwear in a tangle about the odd mm. at all, not least as there is a 12% error in the width of my track!

 

My Kirk Gresleys built years ago still sit on Bachmann Thompson bogies and look fine, as I say I hadn't noted there was a difference until you imparted your wisdom - for which many thanks as ever.

 

I really do get bored with these reviews that such and such a cab window is 0.2 of a mm. the wrong size, I can't see it anyway, and am not really fussed. I still love my Bachmann 24's, which I thought were the best thing since sliced bread when I first put a double headed pair on a long freight, and no I'm not changing them for something better, although I'd accept that the SLW model is magnificent. Ditto various other stuff, Heljan 47's for one - I'm quite tubby so what's the problem!

 

See you've got me using these emoticon things now.

 

Best wishes,

 

John.

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, John Tomlinson said:

Hi Clive, no I don't get my underwear in a tangle about the odd mm. at all, not least as there is a 12% error in the width of my track!

 

My Kirk Gresleys built years ago still sit on Bachmann Thompson bogies and look fine, as I say I hadn't noted there was a difference until you imparted your wisdom - for which many thanks as ever.

 

I really do get bored with these reviews that such and such a cab window is 0.2 of a mm. the wrong size, I can't see it anyway, and am not really fussed. I still love my Bachmann 24's, which I thought were the best thing since sliced bread when I first put a double headed pair on a long freight, and no I'm not changing them for something better, although I'd accept that the SLW model is magnificent. Ditto various other stuff, Heljan 47's for one - I'm quite tubby so what's the problem!

 

See you've got me using these emoticon things now.

 

Best wishes,

 

John.

 

 

Hi John

 

I agree about the Bachy Sulzer type 2s I am happy to run them all day and every day, they are very reliable. The new Heljan one has the cab door all wrong, and looks too flat across the front. Nuff said as this Andy's building thread.

[thegreenhowards]

1 hour ago, Clive Mortimore said:

Hi John

 

I agree about the Bachy Sulzer type 2s I am happy to run them all day and every day, they are very reliable. The new Heljan one has the cab door all wrong, and looks too flat across the front. Nuff said as this Andy's building thread.

You’re welcome to discuss such things on here but not too much on 47s please as I regard them as beneath contempt. My time frame is deliberately designed to end the day before D1500 was delivered to FP!

[thegreenhowards]

I’m making progress with painting the C2. However, The GNR livery is proving tough, both from the number of colours and the lining so I’m looking for advice if anyone can help. For the tender, I ruled out a pencil line for the division between the two greens and hand painted BR Brunswick green for the darker shade of GNR green - this shade seems to match photos quite well.

 

 

It looks pretty rough when seen like that, but when I add lining in between the colours my dodgy painting miraculously disappears!

 

 

I’ve used Modelmaster LNER transfers for thIs. I can’t find any transfers for the GNR style concave corners (I don’t know the technical term), so I cut up normal LNER corners and reversed them. It will need touching in with white paint on the corners. Doing the top panel under the coal rails will be more difficult as this only had one white line so less width to cover my wobbles.

 

A few queries for any experts out there:

• Does my GNR dark green look OK?
• Does the GNR frame ‘chocolate’ brown look OK? - this was a mix of 3 parts Humbrol 186 to one part Humbrol 10.
• I have two options for the single white line: I have borrowed a bow pen from a friend so may try using that or I could try cutting the Modelmaster transfers to create a single white line. Neither sound easy - are there any other tricks?

I’m basing my livery on 990 as preserved and using this web page as my guide.

 

https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/gnr-990-henry-oakley-gnr-990-lner-3990/

 

Thanks 

 

Andy

[Jon4470]

On 15/09/2020 at 16:50, thegreenhowards said:

 

 

We have one fairly convincing Car 105. I really need to line round the oval window but I’m not sure how to do that, so it may have to stay like this.

 

Andy

 

 

Hello Andy

to line around the oval window I think you should try one of these:

 

 

It will enable you to follow the curves at a consistent distance. 

 

Jon

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

6 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

Hello Andy

to line around the oval window I think you should try one of these:

 

 

It will enable you to follow the curves at a consistent distance. 

 

Jon

 

 

Hi Jon,

 

I’ve just tried using a bow pen like this (Borrowed from a friend) to do straight lines (for the C1) and I couldn’t get anywhere close to a thin enough line coming out of it. So I’d decided that lining pens weren’t for me and I might have to buy orange lining transfers and try to bend them round. Is your pen different to the one I have in the photo?

 

Andy