Coulsdon Works

[jwealleans]

Found them in the 'Heads up' thread, posted in July 2015.

 

Link for ordering is : http://www.precisionlabels.com/payment.html?3.99&4mm-LNER-Window-Signs

[Bucoops]

42 minutes ago, micklner said:

The next problem is figuring out which compartments were smoking and non smoking on each Coach!.

 

Assuming they are accurate, Isinglass drawings are marked if compartments are smoking or not.

 

Those transfers look very useful!

[thegreenhowards]

Many thanks for all the help. Those Precision labels look the biz! I have used his excellent Pullman Car labels before, but never thought to look for these window decals.

 

I’m thinking that I’ll go for a 1949 Gill Sans left hand numbering with prefix but no suffix and LNER No smoking roundels. I assume that would work for service up until 53/54 - does that seem reasonable? Andrew, you said that the numbering should generally be immediately right of the left most door. Does that mean the guard door rather than the left most passenger door on the BT? 

[Headstock]

25 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Many thanks for all the help. Those Precision labels look the biz! I have used his excellent Pullman Car labels before, but never thought to look for these window decals.

 

I’m thinking that I’ll go for a 1949 Gill Sans left hand numbering with prefix but no suffix and LNER No smoking roundels. I assume that would work for service up until 53/54 - does that seem reasonable? Andrew, you said that the numbering should generally be immediately right of the left most door. Does that mean the guard door rather than the left most passenger door on the BT? 

 

Good morning Andy,

 

Whoa there, slow dem horses. Before you go rushing off at full pelt as usual, I will look out something more specific. Van compartments on Gresley stock were often a law unto themselves in this period. It is also worth considering that Gresley stock was often playing catch up with the contemporary and often new Thompson carriages. What may be right for Thompson in 49 may be more applicable to Gresley carriages in 50, by which time the style may have changed again.

 

The window glazing adornaments is rather interesting, sounds like another delve into the traffic committee reports when the NRM is safe. I wonder if this is an RCH thing, as the Southern also adopted the triangles but continued to use older stock.

[Headstock]

Afternoon Andy,

 

I don't have any pictures of Gresley non gangway teak stock, still in teak livery, with left hand Gill sans numbers. This is probably not that surprising, as it was a short lived idea and as a result quite rare. The Master Cutler was turned out in 1949 as one of the first Crimson and Cream formations, all carriages had left hand numbers, those on the brakes located to the left of the Guards door, see photo below.

 

 

I have a number of photographs of wooden bodied carriages with left hand Gill sans numbers, for example an ex GC open third, an ex GC Barnum, Gresley sleeper ect and the ex NER Dynamometer car. All are in ex works condition. A weathered teak carriage such as your model, carrying left hand Gill sans, would push the date of the carriage much later into the fifties. This arrangement seems to have been done as part of a full overhaul in works, rather than as a 'patch painted' update. Much more common are E prefixes to the existing number and right hand Gill sans, both with and without suffix.

 

P.S. notice the corridor windows.

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Headstock
add P.S.

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Andy,

 

Whoa there, slow dem horses. Before you go rushing off at full pelt as usual, I will look out something more specific. Van compartments on Gresley stock were often a law unto themselves in this period. It is also worth considering that Gresley stock was often playing catch up with the contemporary and often new Thompson carriages. What may be right for Thompson in 49 may be more applicable to Gresley carriages in 50, by which time the style may have changed again.

 

The window glazing adornaments is rather interesting, sounds like another delve into the traffic committee reports when the NRM is safe. I wonder if this is an RCH thing, as the Southern also adopted the triangles but continued to use older stock.

Good evening Andrew,

 

You know I’m an impatient b....r! I’ve been a good boy and left the numbering well alone this afternoon, concentrating on the roof instead.

 

9 hours ago, Headstock said:

Afternoon Andy,

 

I don't have any pictures of Gresley non gangway teak stock, still in teak livery, with left hand Gill sans numbers. This is probably not that surprising, as it was a short lived idea and as a result quite rare. The Master Cutler was turned out in 1949 as one of the first Crimson and Cream formations, all carriages had left hand numbers, those on the brakes located to the left of the Guards door, see photo below.

 

 

I have a number of photographs of wooden bodied carriages with left hand Gill sans numbers, for example an ex GC open third, an ex GC Barnum, Gresley sleeper ect and the ex NER Dynamometer car. All are in ex works condition. A weathered teak carriage such as your model, carrying left hand Gill sans, would push the date of the carriage much later into the fifties. This arrangement seems to have been done as part of a full overhaul in works, rather than as a 'patch painted' update. Much more common are E prefixes to the existing number and right hand Gill sans, both with and without suffix.

 

P.S. notice the corridor windows.

 

 

 

Nice picture And remarkably uniform. I wondered what you meant about the corridor windows but I assume you’re referring to our earlier debate about vents on D.155s. I stand corrected although presumably some were converted and maybe more by the late ‘50s?

 

With regard to Gill Sans numbering, did the LNER use Gill Sans on coaches (other than the streamliners) or did they stick to the ‘florid’ shaded lettering to the end?

 

Andy

[Headstock]

48 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Good evening Andrew,

 

You know I’m an impatient b....r! I’ve been a good boy and left the numbering well alone this afternoon, concentrating on the roof instead.

 

Nice picture And remarkably uniform. I wondered what you meant about the corridor windows but I assume you’re referring to our earlier debate about vents on D.155s. I stand corrected although presumably some were converted and maybe more by the late ‘50s?

 

With regard to Gill Sans numbering, did the LNER use Gill Sans on coaches (other than the streamliners) or did they stick to the ‘florid’ shaded lettering to the end?

 

Andy

 

Evening Andy,

 

The LNER got Eric Gill to produce a whole range a variants of Gill sans for their use. The intention was for it to replace everything but phased in over a period of time. Paperwork, timetables, publicity etc were dealt with before the War. Carriages were further down the list but theoretically they would have received the same treatment. None were done by the LNER but BR adopted the LNER 'corporate' style. It's funny that you refer to the LNER carriage font as 'florid', close up it looks quite Heavy Metal!

 

Talking about dia. 155, have you noticed the gangway on the example over the page.

 

On you legendary impatience, if your hands are full of roofing tools, adding those domed ends, I'm sure you could still hand paint Gill sans numbers, upside down with a paintbrush gripped between your toes.

Edited August 23, 2020 by Headstock
HMS unexplainable

[jwealleans]

21 hours ago, Headstock said:

I wonder if this is an RCH thing, as the Southern also adopted the triangles but continued to use older stock.

 

I had wondered whether it was an RCH initiative.   I didn't know about the Southern adopting them.   I've circulated the question among the great and good of the LNER Society to see what the collective knowledge is.

[John Tomlinson]

10 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Evening Andy,

 

The LNER got Eric Gill to produce a whole range a variants of Gill sans for their use. The intention was for it to replace everything but phased in over a period of time. Paperwork, timetables, publicity etc were dealt with before the War. Carriages were further down the list but theoretically they would have received the same treatment. None were done by the LNER but BR adopted the LNER 'corporate' style. It's funny that you refer to the LNER carriage font as 'florid', close up it looks quite Heavy Metal!

 

Talking about dia. 155, have you noticed the gangway on the example over the page.

 

On you legendary impatience, if your hands are full of roofing tools, adding those domed ends, I'm sure you could still hand paint Gill sans numbers, upside down with a paintbrush gripped between your toes.

Andrew, re. your painting suggestions.

 

Not as far fetched as you might think. A man who used to decorate the outside of our house told me a story during his apprenticeship. One day he was out on a job, c.1960,  and the boss pointed to the facia on a gable on a building of 3 if not 4 storeys. He was told to get on the roof and lean over the edge to do the painting - or else. Although in Nottingham, perhaps a little cameo for LSGC!

 

John.

[thegreenhowards]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

The LNER got Eric Gill to produce a whole range a variants of Gill sans for their use. The intention was for it to replace everything but phased in over a period of time. Paperwork, timetables, publicity etc were dealt with before the War. Carriages were further down the list but theoretically they would have received the same treatment. None were done by the LNER but BR adopted the LNER 'corporate' style. It's funny that you refer to the LNER carriage font as 'florid', close up it looks quite Heavy Metal!

I was borrowing Darryl Tooley's description as I thought it quite appropriate.

 

Quote

Talking about dia. 155, have you noticed the gangway on the example over the page.

 

 

I hadn't but it l can see it's different now. Was this for a cross country working? I note that one has the alternate vents in the corridor windows, so I wasn't just making it up!

Edited August 24, 2020 by thegreenhowards

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, jwealleans said:

 

I had wondered whether it was an RCH initiative.   I didn't know about the Southern adopting them.   I've circulated the question among the great and good of the LNER Society to see what the collective knowledge is.

 

Good morning Jonathan,

 

The Master Cutler was turned out with the LNER style as well.

 

51 minutes ago, John Tomlinson said:

Andrew, re. your painting suggestions.

 

Not as far fetched as you might think. A man who used to decorate the outside of our house told me a story during his apprenticeship. One day he was out on a job, c.1960,  and the boss pointed to the facia on a gable on a building of 3 if not 4 storeys. He was told to get on the roof and lean over the edge to do the painting - or else. Although in Nottingham, perhaps a little cameo for LSGC!

 

John.

 

Perhaps if Greenie gets himself scanned and 3d printed.

 

4 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

I was borrowing Darryl Tooley's description as I thought it quite appropriate.

 

I hadn't but it l can see it's different now. Was this for a cross country working?

 

Cross country in the sense that the GCR went from Manchester to Sheffield to Lincolnshire. It's a BS gangway for working with LMS stock.

[thegreenhowards]

8 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Perhaps if Greenie gets himself scanned and 3d printed.

 

If that would get me a cameo appearance on LSGC it would be worth it!

[65179]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning Jonathan,

 

The Master Cutler was turned out with the LNER style as well.

 

 

Perhaps if Greenie gets himself scanned and 3d printed.

 

 

Cross country in the sense that the GCR went from Manchester to Sheffield to Lincolnshire. It's a BS gangway for working with LMS stock.

 

Any idea what service that BS gangwayed TK at Sheffield Victoria is on?

 

Simon

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, 65179 said:

 

Any idea what service that BS gangwayed TK at Sheffield Victoria is on?

 

Simon

 

Good evening Simon,

 

the roof board narrows the field somewhat to a Liverpool service via Manchester. The BS gangway may not be relevant in of itself, excepting that it is coupled to another Gresley carriage with a BS gangway. Unfortunately the locomotive is unknown, is it the train engine or a station pilot? If the latter then two TK's were added to the Liverpool bound Boat train at Sheffield. If the locomotive is the train engine, a Sheffield or Gorton B7 for example, then a couple of other services such as from Hull to Liverpool also required a pair of strengtheners, a (Su O) Thompson set for example that had two additional thirds outside the main formation.

[65179]

Thanks Andrew. 

 

I don't trust roofboards. There's an E.R. Morten photo of a Caprotti Black 5 at Chinley in Derbyshire in 1950. It is pulling a train of LNER teak stock with the first vehicle at least displaying a lovely set of Edinburgh-inverness roofboards!

 

Incidentally were there generally two sets of boards for a given train, one for each direction, or just the one set? This train is pointing East but shows Manchester Liverpool.

 

I asked as I have Liverpool-Hull and Liverpool-Harwich sets to build. The Harwich had a pair of Dia.155/298s at the head of the train from Manchester around this time so it helps to know whether I need to fit BS gangways! If it's the Boat train then that loco is probably an Immingham D11. It's not likely to be a B7 - far too clean!

 

Apologies for the thread hijack!

 

Simon

[John Tomlinson]

11 hours ago, 65179 said:

 

Any idea what service that BS gangwayed TK at Sheffield Victoria is on?

 

Simon

Are you sure this is Sheffield Victoria? Agreed, it fits with the three roads and the style of platform awning. However, I wonder if it could be Manchester Central, outside of the main canopy, which would explain the destination boards - so it's a CLC line train to Liverpool? I wondered as well if the chimney seen above the awnings helps ID the location? We can be confident it is immediately post-nationalisation, with the lettering on the tender as well as the coaches in teak.

 

John.

[Headstock]

15 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Thanks Andrew. 

 

I don't trust roofboards. There's an E.R. Morten photo of a Caprotti Black 5 at Chinley in Derbyshire in 1950. It is pulling a train of LNER teak stock with the first vehicle at least displaying a lovely set of Edinburgh-inverness roofboards!

 

Incidentally were there generally two sets of boards for a given train, one for each direction, or just the one set? This train is pointing East but shows Manchester Liverpool.

 

I asked as I have Liverpool-Hull and Liverpool-Harwich sets to build. The Harwich had a pair of Dia.155/298s at the head of the train from Manchester around this time so it helps to know whether I need to fit BS gangways! If it's the Boat train then that loco is probably an Immingham D11. It's not likely to be a B7 - far too clean!

 

Apologies for the thread hijack!

 

Simon

 

I wouldn't even assume it is a whole train. For a lot of these, I have multiple images of the same train but only the one of this example. The best that can be said is that the locomotive is facing east but could later be at the west end if involved in shunting. I wouldn't dismiss all roof boards based on one obviously mismatched example, Manchester Liverpool seems perfectly reasonable for the location, different boards were usually carried for both directions of travel. However, it was unusual for strengtheners to be fitted with roof boards, they were usually carried in the van compartment of a brake. It is possible that they were added for the outbound journey and left in place coming back. Obviously it's not going to be a B7 on the boat train but that's not what I said.

[thegreenhowards]

59 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

different boards were usually carried for both directions of travel. 

That's interesting, I don't recall ever seeing 'Edinburgh-London' for example. 

[thegreenhowards]

Changing the subject somewhat, I am making progress with the D.194/5. The bodies are now ready for the paint shop (except for scribing the beading off the Hornby ends which I noticed in the photo!). I will progress the underframe while the body is being painted.

 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, thegreenhowards said:

That's interesting, I don't recall ever seeing 'Edinburgh-London' for example. 

 

Wrong railway Greenie, not to mention, probably the wrong time period. I'm not going to post more photographs though, it takes forever.

 

That's a heck of a lot of solder on that van compartment, have you not used a cross piece with a simple but joint? Will you be changing the spacing on the Queen posts. Finally, I don't think that you have mentioned the source of the etches, if you have could you point it out again please?

[thegreenhowards]

50 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Wrong railway Greenie, not to mention, probably the wrong time period. I'm not going to post more photographs though, it takes forever.

Fair enough. As long as the ‘right’ railway did not change the boards then I’m happy/ relieved!

50 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

That's a heck of a lot of solder on that van compartment, have you not used a cross piece with a simple but joint? Will you be changing the spacing on the Queen posts. Finally, I don't think that you have mentioned the source of the etches, if you have could you point it out again please?

I don’t find the solder a problem as long as it’s smooth and flux free. It’s had a good wire brushing and Cif polish so should be fine. I didn’t use a butt joint as none was provided and I didn’t really think about it. I just built up the inside with strips of brass to get the inset. 

 

I haven’t decided about the queen posts. The only diagram I have Is here.

It doesn’t show the underframe at all which is not very helpful! I assume that they would have been the standard 61’6” coach spacing for the queen posts in which case, I’ll probably cut the Hornby ones off and use MJT bits. I do have to admit that my other pair (which was done several years ago) still has the Hornby shortie angle iron though.

 

The sides are from Mousa. They’re pretty basic, but he doesn’t claim otherwise, so fair enough. I have some Southern Pride sides in stock as well, so will probably use them for a maroon 5 set later - this one will be blood and custard (with a D.190 compo eventually).

 

Andy

 

[Headstock]

10 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Fair enough. As long as the ‘right’ railway did not change the boards then I’m happy/ relieved!

I don’t find the solder a problem as long as it’s smooth and flux free. It’s had a good wire brushing and Cif polish so should be fine. I didn’t use a butt joint as none was provided and I didn’t really think about it. I just built up the inside with strips of brass to get the inset. 

 

I haven’t decided about the queen posts. The only diagram I have Is here.

It doesn’t show the underframe at all which is not very helpful! I assume that they would have been the standard 61’6” coach spacing for the queen posts in which case, I’ll probably cut the Hornby ones off and use MJT bits. I do have to admit that my other pair (which was done several years ago) still has the Hornby shortie angle iron though.

 

The sides are from Mousa. They’re pretty basic, but he doesn’t claim otherwise, so fair enough. I have some Southern Pride sides in stock as well, so will probably use them for a maroon 5 set later - this one will be blood and custard (with a D.190 compo eventually).

 

Andy

 

 

Thanks for the info Andy,

 

it's a lot cheaper and you get a finer result, by soldering up a set of angle iron and Queen posts from brass L section. It's not as difficult as it sounds. Most Gresley / Thompson carriages had the identical spacing between the queen posts or the needle beams, Hornby had a couple of attempts before getting it right on the non gangway stock. How does the Mousa compare with the SP in the dimensions of the windows? A shame a lot of SP stuff is no longer available, I would snap up another Thompson open third, the one I have has had the valance removed as per prototype.

 

For the brake inserts, I build the narrower van compartment and passenger compartment as two seperate four sided boxes, then join them together. The top of the two bulkheads that join together are slotted, so that when glancing through the top lights the van compartment looks to be open. The bulkheads can't be seen through either the guards door or from the passenger compartments.

 

Re destination boards, I haven't looked close enough at East coast mainline workings to know anything conclusive. A modeler I know, made the same assumption about one way boards for the Manchester Marylebone expresses, apparently based on LMS practice of all things! He was wrong to do so and fortunately exploded, never to be seen again.

[65179]

4 hours ago, John Tomlinson said:

Are you sure this is Sheffield Victoria? Agreed, it fits with the three roads and the style of platform awning. However, I wonder if it could be Manchester Central, outside of the main canopy, which would explain the destination boards - so it's a CLC line train to Liverpool? I wondered as well if the chimney seen above the awnings helps ID the location? We can be confident it is immediately post-nationalisation, with the lettering on the tender as well as the coaches in teak.

 

John.

In this case yes. I double-checked as I've made that mistake before! The style of valancing together with the gap in it fits with Sheffield as does the placing of the ground signal.

 

Simon

[John Tomlinson]

10 minutes ago, 65179 said:

In this case yes. I double-checked as I've made that mistake before! The style of valancing together with the gap in it fits with Sheffield as does the placing of the ground signal.

 

Simon

Hi Simon,

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

John.

[John Tomlinson]

3 hours ago, thegreenhowards said:

Changing the subject somewhat, I am making progress with the D.194/5. The bodies are now ready for the paint shop (except for scribing the beading off the Hornby ends which I noticed in the photo!). I will progress the underframe while the body is being painted.

 

That's pretty speedy progress, Andy. I stupidly bought the BSL punched effort for this on ebay some while ago, need several stiff drinks to mark out and drill the holes, not to mention scribe the doors.

 

To be clear, are the underframes from Ancient Hornby shorties, along with ends, roofs, and bogies?

 

Thanks,

 

John.