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Andrew P

Seven Mills Sidings

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19 minutes ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hi Andy,

If they are LEDs, then the camera is picking up the flicker of lights.  LEDs switch on and off very rapidly, which the human eye doesn't see, but put a video camera on with a shutter speed above 1/60th of a second, and the Flickr will show up.  Its the same problem that we have with trains on the National Network - the lights can appear to be all 'OFF' despite clearly seeing them when you hit the button!

 

The downside is selecting a slower shutter speed will result in a blurier picture, although that might not be too big an issue at the speeds involved on model railways.  Major problem on the big railway of course!!

 

Rich

Cheers Rich, Well you live and learn something new every day, and that is all new to me, so thanks for the knowledge mate.

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New page and the last pic of the day.

1232362320_IMG_8111-Copy.JPG.79fa37edfa4802b7c55e5f9fdae9a4de.JPG

 

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Some cracking sound projects  Andy you have been a busy lad ......now a word of caution .....Don't get to carried away with those Heljan loco's with the weight involved and a misjudgement on function number 2 and you'll have a run away lump of 'Heavy Metal' through the level crossing through TOPS wall and into next doors garden. .......and if it's a Class 25 it'll be a 'Rat out of Hell'

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Posted (edited)
19 minutes ago, gismorail said:

Some cracking sound projects  Andy you have been a busy lad ......now a word of caution .....Don't get to carried away with those Heljan loco's with the weight involved and a misjudgement on function number 2 and you'll have a run away lump of 'Heavy Metal' through the level crossing through TOPS wall and into next doors garden. .......and if it's a Class 25 it'll be a 'Rat out of Hell'

 

 

Or if it's a bit bigger, 'Paradise by the Whistlers Light'. ;)

 

Jinty ;)

 

Edited to add: 'I'll do anything for Rats, but I won't do that!!!'

Edited by Jintyman
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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, gismorail said:

Some cracking sound projects  Andy you have been a busy lad ......now a word of caution .....Don't get to carried away with those Heljan loco's with the weight involved and a misjudgement on function number 2 and you'll have a run away lump of 'Heavy Metal' through the level crossing through TOPS wall and into next doors garden. .......and if it's a Class 25 it'll be a 'Rat out of Hell'

 

9 hours ago, Jintyman said:

 

 

Or if it's a bit bigger, 'Paradise by the Whistlers Light'. https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_wink3.gif

 

Jinty https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_wink3.gif

 

Edited to add: 'I'll do anything for Rats, but I won't do that!!!'

:offtopic:Take me back to Paradise City, where the RATS are big and the Gronks are pretty.:D

Edited by Andrew P
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And so BACK IN THE REAL WORLD, :o:yes:  and later today I hope to make a start on ballasting the Exchange Sidings, and work my way back to the Bridge over the coming Months. 

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hi Andy,

If they are LEDs, then the camera is picking up the flicker of lights.  LEDs switch on and off very rapidly, which the human eye doesn't see, but put a video camera on with a shutter speed above 1/60th of a second, and the Flickr will show up.  Its the same problem that we have with trains on the National Network - the lights can appear to be all 'OFF' despite clearly seeing them when you hit the button!

 

The downside is selecting a slower shutter speed will result in a blurier picture, although that might not be too big an issue at the speeds involved on model railways.  Major problem on the big railway of course!!

 

Rich

Rich,

 

I'm puzzled by your comments, all video I've recorded is at 25 frames per second and that produces very good results. It is the recommended rate as far as I know and the default on my Digital SLR.

I can't imagine that Andy would be using other than the default for his camera, hence 24 or 25fps. If so why the flicker of LEDs?  LEDs don't flicker on a DC supply, is the source AC with < 25 Hz frequency?

 

Colin

Edited by BWsTrains
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45 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

Rich,

 

I'm puzzled by your comments, all video I've recorded is at 25 frames per second and that produces very good results. It is the recommended rate as far as I know and the default on my Digital SLR.

I can't imagine that Andy would be using other than the default for his camera, hence 24 or 25fps. If so why the flicker of LEDs?  LEDs don't flicker on a DC supply, is the source AC with < 25 Hz frequency?

 

Colin

Just run the 37 again this morning, and no sign of flicker to the naked eye. 

 

As for the camera settings, it's just a very basic Canon IXUS190, and I just press the record button, I must admit, I never noticed it on any OO Locos, but they use a different DCC Controller, I.e. Gaugemaster Prodigy 2, compared to the ACE Signatrack on SMS.

 

Most strange:no2:

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1 hour ago, BWsTrains said:

Rich,

 

I'm puzzled by your comments, all video I've recorded is at 25 frames per second and that produces very good results. It is the recommended rate as far as I know and the default on my Digital SLR.

I can't imagine that Andy would be using other than the default for his camera, hence 24 or 25fps. If so why the flicker of LEDs?  LEDs don't flicker on a DC supply, is the source AC with < 25 Hz frequency?

 

Colin

 

Hi Colin,

You are mixing up FPS and shutter speed. Frames per second is the speed that film (in the old days) runs at. Imagine the old fine films where you could see each rectangular frame on a strip of film and 25 of them makes up a second of SD/HD video (25 or 60 on 4K). 

 

Shutter speed is is the speed at which the shutter fires. LEDs refresh at something like 50hz , so if the shutter is firing at a speed equal to it below the number of refreshes it is the equivalent to a timed exposure.

 

Think of an LED that switches on and off 50 times a second. So for every 400ths of a second half the time the LED is on and half the time is if off. That is repeated 50 times to give 1 second in time.  So if you get the camera firing at 1/200th of a second on a still image, You have an equal chance of getting the lights on and off. Because video is constant it sees this differently and ends up in the flashing.

 

Have a look at this random video on YouTube. 

 

 

This chap has captured the same thing on a DRS Class 68. To him stood there the lights were constant, but the camera is picking up the refresh rate of the LEDs. I actually had a conversation with the Technical Director (can’t remember his actual job title) of DRS over this when the 68s came in, as we thought there was a potential intermittent fault with the lights. Until we hit on the fact it was only ever seen on video!

 

Rich

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42 minutes ago, Andrew P said:

Just run the 37 again this morning, and no sign of flicker to the naked eye. 

 

As for the camera settings, it's just a very basic Canon IXUS190, and I just press the record button, I must admit, I never noticed it on any OO Locos, but they use a different DCC Controller, I.e. Gaugemaster Prodigy 2, compared to the ACE Signatrack on SMS.

 

Most strangehttps://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/uploads/emoticons/default_no2.gif

 

Hi Andy,

You won’t see it to the naked eye, but it is there. On the OO logos, could they be small grain of wheat bulbs rather than LEDs?

 

Bulks are always on (hence using more power) and so will not flash on video.

 

Rich

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3 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hi Colin,

You are mixing up FPS and shutter speed. Frames per second is the speed that film (in the old days) runs at. Imagine the old fine films where you could see each rectangular frame on a strip of film and 25 of them makes up a second of SD/HD video (25 or 60 on 4K). 

 

Shutter speed is is the speed at which the shutter fires. LEDs refresh at something like 50hz , so if the shutter is firing at a speed equal to it below the number of refreshes it is the equivalent to a timed exposure.

 

Think of an LED that switches on and off 50 times a second. So for every 400ths of a second half the time the LED is on and half the time is if off. That is repeated 50 times to give 1 second in time.  So if you get the camera firing at 1/200th of a second on a still image, You have an equal chance of getting the lights on and off. Because video is constant it sees this differently and ends up in the flashing.

 

Have a look at this random video on YouTube. 

 

 

This chap has captured the same thing on a DRS Class 68. To him stood there the lights were constant, but the camera is picking up the refresh rate of the LEDs. I actually had a conversation with the Technical Director (can’t remember his actual job title) of DRS over this when the 68s came in, as we thought there was a potential intermittent fault with the lights. Until we hit on the fact it was only ever seen on video!

 

Rich

Cheers Rich, really great info there, and again something that I never knew.

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3 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hi Andy,

You won’t see it to the naked eye, but it is there. On the OO logos, could they be small grain of wheat bulbs rather than LEDs?

 

Bulks are always on (hence using more power) and so will not flash on video.

 

Rich

Hi Rich, No my Locos are all the modern ones with LED's, the only exception might be the Heljan 47 that has lights, but as it has the WRONG BODY for the Chassis, the lighting bar doesn't line up, so effectively shows no lights anyway.

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After some bits down at Mum's old Bungalow this morning I did do the Ballasting of the Exchange Sidings.

 

Firstly I had some O Gauge Ballast and so did a light sprinkling over the Track and spread it between the Sleepers so as not to use up to much decent Ballast.

Then with a mix of Gaugemaster ''OO'' and ''N'' Ballast I laid it over the Track.

Next I sprinkled a light coating of Woodlands Scenics Fine Cinders over the area, and mainly between the Running Rails.

Finally a liberal sprinkling of Woodlands Scenics Green and Light Earth Powders.

The first pic show it Dry, before I added Soapy Water and Diluted PVA.

IMG_8997.JPG.338692228a7089f66b652f7a520ede76.JPG

 

Now Wet and setting.

IMG_8998.JPG.03b263d1ef12f2ea277966b43f5c17d1.JPG

 

IMG_8999.JPG.c8240068c82c2b710dfae45ac7aef2b5.JPG

 

IMG_9002.JPG.a9c8ba87e25749af3ed659a4f05097d5.JPG

 

IMG_9003.JPG.a1ff3672be2d2d205a8de6e46217e2ce.JPG

 

IMG_9004.JPG.ad23fa436424673689bbd670c6efe347.JPG

More Static Grass will be added once this if fully dry.

 

 

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Next I did a similar thing to the MOD Line but using more Fine Cinders in the N Gauge mix.

 

Again, dry, then wet pics.

IMG_9000.JPG.d026ce35f29abf5592ad95fbcfed33fc.JPG

 

IMG_9001.JPG.031b3766b30cb21bd74bffc35fc1972b.JPG

 

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Posted (edited)

And then a couple of pics.

IMG_9005.JPG.592ad288393037e7515dcf4edd9ad4fc.JPG

 

 

IMG_9006.JPG.804cbe7e77d7c88c59353c3e85e3fcd0.JPG

 

Edited by Andrew P
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34 minutes ago, Baggies1961 said:

Looks excellent Andy got to say.

Cheers Julian, really pleased with it, and the sound is awesome.

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The numbers are ordered from Railtec for the 40, so once I get them I can throw some MUCK at it and make it look a little lived in.:good:

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, MarshLane said:

 

Hi Colin,

You are mixing up FPS and shutter speed. Frames per second is the speed that film (in the old days) runs at. Imagine the old fine films where you could see each rectangular frame on a strip of film and 25 of them makes up a second of SD/HD video (25 or 60 on 4K). 

 

Shutter speed is is the speed at which the shutter fires. LEDs refresh at something like 50hz (no they don't) , so if the shutter is firing at a speed equal to it below the number of refreshes it is the equivalent to a timed exposure.

 

Think of an LED that switches on and off 50 times a second. So for every 400ths of a second half the time the LED is on and half the time is if off. That is repeated 50 times to give 1 second in time.  So if you get the camera firing at 1/200th of a second on a still image, You have an equal chance of getting the lights on and off. Because video is constant it sees this differently and ends up in the flashing.

 

 

This chap has captured the same thing on a DRS Class 68. To him stood there the lights were constant, but the camera is picking up the refresh rate of the LEDs. I actually had a conversation with the Technical Director (can’t remember his actual job title) of DRS over this when the 68s came in, as we thought there was a potential intermittent fault with the lights. Until we hit on the fact it was only ever seen on video!

 

Rich

 

Rich,

 

You raise 3 separate points:

FPS and Shutter Speed (SS) - fair point, if the camera uses one exposure capture per frame and the capture time is less than any flicker frequency that is occurring. Best to choose a low capture (shutter speed) rate and low ISO as possible.  

 

LEDs refresh at something like 50Hz - not sure where you got that refresh is a default as you state above.

 

Let's test that, I shot 3 videos all at 25fps the first at 1/80th, 2nd at 1/50th, 3rd at my minimum of 1/30th exposure time - Camera Canon DSLR EOS T2i

Red LED + 750ohm resistor on 12VDC

 

They are strung together in this one composite video. ISO was adjusted which explains differing light levels between the clip components.

 

 

Finally "This chap has captured the same thing on a DRS Class 68"

 

Sorry but you can't conclude anything meaningful from this. The camera settings are not specified, the lights on the loco, assuming they are LEDs, are in an unknown configuration powered by an unknown power supply (but must be be an AC source) since I've shown that LEDs powered by DCV don't flicker on Digital recorded videos. 

 

Look at a video of a modern car at night, LEDs fed DC from battery, no flicker!

 

The cause of flickering in Andy's example must be due to the power supply, 


Colin

 

Edited by BWsTrains
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49 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

 

Rich,

 

You raise 3 separate points:

FPS and Shutter Speed (SS) - fair point, if the camera uses one exposure capture per frame and the capture time is less than any flicker frequency that is occurring. Best to choose a low capture (shutter speed) rate and low ISO as possible.  

 

LEDs refresh at something like 50Hz - not sure where you got that refresh is a default as you state above.

 

Let's test that, I shot 3 videos all at 25fps the first at 1/80th, 2nd at 1/50th, 3rd at my minimum of 1/30th exposure time - Camera Canon DSLR EOS T2i

Red LED + 750ohm resistor on 12VDC

 

Finally "This chap has captured the same thing on a DRS Class 68"

 

Sorry but you can't conclude anything meaningful from this. The camera settings are not specified, the lights on the loco, assuming they are LEDs, are in an unknown configuration powered by an unknown power supply (but must be be an AC source) since I've shown that LEDs powered by DCV don't flicker on Digital recorded videos. 

 

Look at a video of a modern car at night, LEDs fed DC from battery, no flicker!

 

The cause of flickering in Andy's example must be due to the power supply, 


Colin

 

 

Hi Colin,

Interesting test.  I did say "something like" I cannot remember the exact frequency off the top of my head and didn't have time when I responded to go check it.  It may well be that the AC (alternating current) causes the Flicker and that DC being a more smoothed supply does not, however we know for a fact that the modern LEDs used on some locos on the National Network do flicker on video and still photographs - proved that many times myself.  They could well be AC current, and in many respects I would expect them to be.  I am no expert and do not claim to be, I was merely commenting as to what was a basic cause of the flickering.

 

I agree with your comments about car lights being powered from DC and not appearing to have any visible flicker, which draws the conclusion about the power source.  I will also admit that I was trying to keep things simple and at a very high level.  I think your comments, however, have provided useful further background and possibly explained why the lights do not Flicker on Andy's other layout - possibly because ( I think ) Andy uses a different control system on each layout.

 

Rich

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Just to confuse the situation about flashers on stations the video clip of a Class 68 flashing whilst going through a station ......was the station 'Acton Bridge' on the WCML ?? If so there's a flashing colour light signal just north of the station from the APT days ^_^

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Here is a test I did this morning, firstly with the Canon Camera I used the other day, and then with my Fuji S5700 Finepix.

 

All very strange!

 

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Silly question but are all the Fuji settings correct?

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3 hours ago, KNP said:

Silly question but are all the Fuji settings correct?

Not a clue mate, I just set it to either Movie, Auto, Anti shake, or SP1 and then use Macro when doing a close up on Auto.

 

There are some new pics coming up in a minute all done on the Fuji.

 

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After another bout of clearing at Mums Bungalow this morning I decided to give the Sidings some Grass for a more over grown / almost disused look, but first I fitted a couple of LED's into the Buffer Lamps. They probably should be on sticks, but I aint ripping them all out again now as I've hidden the wires under bushes etc.

DSCF2182.JPG.78603c855c48182f8fd729498f1e726f.JPG

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