LSWR/SE H15 little brother first

[Mallard60022]

I can readily sympathize with folk trying to build an H15 due to the wheelbase of the front coupled wheels. I have no experience of either the DJH or PDK kits but I have attached some picture of my scratchbuilt model of 330, which was one of five (330-335) rebuilt by Urie from Drummond F13’s, which had an 8’1” rear coupled wheelbase. As far as I am aware there has never been a kit for this particular variant. My model is 4mm scale and built to EM gauge out of a mixture of plasticard brass and whitemetal plus an SEF tender kit. I have cheated inasmuch I have stretched the front coupled wheelbase to 26mm rather than 25mm and used Markits wheels intended for a Black 5 which are the right size but only have 19 spokes rather than 20 as on the prototype. In P4 you could probably get away with the correct wheelbase using Gibson wheels. With regard to drawings all prototypes are covered in the April/May 1994 edition of Modellers Back Track magazine, albeit the drawings are 3mm/1ft so need rescaling for 4mm.

Really lovely job. I am not worthy..........

Phil

[Mallard60022]

I've just been playing with my train set, and took a look at my Hornby N15's and S15's. I don't as yet have any kit built SR locos, but have to say that with full detailing and the odd tweak I'm very taken with both these RTR products.

 

Interesting, but perhaps not surprising, that both these types have the front and middle drivers almost touching, so the issue of wheel size must have been around for all this loco "family" ever since someone thought to make a model.

 

Just out of interest, has anyone experience of turning a Maunsell S15 into one of the Urie examples with stepped running plate?

 

John.

I have not seen anything on here AFAIK. I reckon Hornby will produce one soon.

Phil

[DCB]

That's an interesting comment as the Steam Pipes are fitted exactly where the holes in the footplate were positioned and I had not even thought to check their position. As the kit was it was almost impossible not to have the frames as they are due to the 'fit', and the cylinder support piece fits inside the frames (in a T shape) so is where it is! However I think the cylinders could have been forced a little further back (say0.5mm) as the fittings for those on the stretcher are just two lumpy grooves without a machined fit!

Smaller wheels on this kit would only enhance the sitting too high appearance as well. More evidence that this kit's dimensions are 'off'. 

Now I accept that my building may not be great but I have to say that without a scale drawing it would be hard to see any of the errors unless one was familiar with the locomotive from other sources (or life experience of course). At least the LNER/ER boys have the Isinglass series and they are invaluable.

PDK is the way (and I don't even have 'interests' in their Company  )

Phil

There was an earlier post re   Urie H15 "Chonker"

 in Modelling Questions, Help and Tips Started by DLT, 24 Dec 2010 Last Post by chertsey chopper, 30 Dec 2010

It includes a drawing by Michael Edge which I hope is reproduced here as a screenshot.   Every drawing of a H15, N15, S15 etc In have seen shows the middle of the cylinders is directly under the chimney. I think getting details like cylinder centrelines and chimneys to coincide, buffers to be the right height, cabs tops and boiler mountings to be in the correct relationship, cabs and tender to match where the prototype matches  are more important than following a drawing which may itself have been done under awkward conditions, or taken from a works drawing bearing an often tenuous relationship to the finished product which actually ran on the railway..  I hope Michael Edge does not mind me re posting his drawing, it certainly looks like the rather small selection of photos of Chonkers I have been able to find...

[N15class]

I've just been playing with my train set, and took a look at my Hornby N15's and S15's. I don't as yet have any kit built SR locos, but have to say that with full detailing and the odd tweak I'm very taken with both these RTR products.

 

Interesting, but perhaps not surprising, that both these types have the front and middle drivers almost touching, so the issue of wheel size must have been around for all this loco "family" ever since someone thought to make a model.

 

Just out of interest, has anyone experience of turning a Maunsell S15 into one of the Urie examples with stepped running plate?

 

John.

Theres a lot of difference between the two. The urie loco has the boiler lower than the later ones. The cabs are the same but lower. And there is a long splasher for the wheels.

[N15class]

I've just been playing with my train set, and took a look at my Hornby N15's and S15's. I don't as yet have any kit built SR locos, but have to say that with full detailing and the odd tweak I'm very taken with both these RTR products.

 

Interesting, but perhaps not surprising, that both these types have the front and middle drivers almost touching, so the issue of wheel size must have been around for all this loco "family" ever since someone thought to make a model.

 

Just out of interest, has anyone experience of turning a Maunsell S15 into one of the Urie examples with stepped running plate?

 

John.

Theres a lot of difference between the two. The urie loco has the boiler lower than the later ones. The cabs are the same but lower. And there is a long splasher for the wheels.

 

I can readily sympathize with folk trying to build an H15 due to the wheelbase of the front coupled wheels. I have no experience of either the DJH or PDK kits but I have attached some picture of my scratchbuilt model of 330, which was one of five (330-335) rebuilt by Urie from Drummond F13’s, which had an 8’1” rear coupled wheelbase. As far as I am aware there has never been a kit for this particular variant. My model is 4mm scale and built to EM gauge out of a mixture of plasticard brass and whitemetal plus an SEF tender kit. I have cheated inasmuch I have stretched the front coupled wheelbase to 26mm rather than 25mm and used Markits wheels intended for a Black 5 which are the right size but only have 19 spokes rather than 20 as on the prototype. In P4 you could probably get away with the correct wheelbase using Gibson wheels. With regard to drawings all prototypes are covered in the April/May 1994 edition of Modellers Back Track magazine, albeit the drawings are 3mm/1ft so need rescaling for 4mm.

I can readily sympathize with folk trying to build an H15 due to the wheelbase of the front coupled wheels. I have no experience of either the DJH or PDK kits but I have attached some picture of my scratchbuilt model of 330, which was one of five (330-335) rebuilt by Urie from Drummond F13’s, which had an 8’1” rear coupled wheelbase. As far as I am aware there has never been a kit for this particular variant. My model is 4mm scale and built to EM gauge out of a mixture of plasticard brass and whitemetal plus an SEF tender kit. I have cheated inasmuch I have stretched the front coupled wheelbase to 26mm rather than 25mm and used Markits wheels intended for a Black 5 which are the right size but only have 19 spokes rather than 20 as on the prototype. In P4 you could probably get away with the correct wheelbase using Gibson wheels. With regard to drawings all prototypes are covered in the April/May 1994 edition of Modellers Back Track magazine, albeit the drawings are 3mm/1ft so need rescaling for 4mm.

Nice looking loco. It has the chunky low down feel that the DJH model just doesn't capture.

[N15class]

Nope, I got that first time around and the S15 has been discussed at length on RMW over the years. I was just mentioning some things they do that are OK. It is the 'innocent/ inexperienced' like me that get caught out with dimensions that are incorrect. 

Phil

It's not just the S15 that is dimensional incorrect. After build four of their kits. I gave up with them. Lots of people I expect are happy 2ith them straight out the box. They make up nicely. But for me personally I wanted accuracy. Kits don't only catch out the inexperienced. I still get caught.

[Barry Ten]

Thanks Mike. I wouldn't have realised that; no drawings etc. and I have not looked carefully enough in the books I do have (not the H15/S15 Book I hasten to add). As far as I can tell I have assembled the boiler parallel with the footplate casting as supplied (but fettled of course and a real arse to get straight) so I am accepting your kind comment that the kit is at fault; thanks.

I have not built a loco for quite some time and so my recent bashing of the lump that is an ancient Wills G6 and this, is really practise to get back into knocking some parts together pre doing some kits that I really need to look as good as possible and where, following your's and other advice here, will take a little more care to check the accuracy before proceeding. 

Actually I've just remembered now that the DJH S15  is inaccurate in parts, maybe a similar design inaccuracy............so why did I buy this? Maybe because it was really inexpensive on EB at the time?

Just thought, I wonder why there are never PDK kits on EB? They are probably too good a quality, rather like those kits of yours.

Good luck John with yours. I am glad I found this little thread as it has been of great help.

Phil

 

 

For what it's worth, when i was buiilding my LSWR S15 I tried superimposing the model on a GA drawing to see where it was noticeably "off":

 

 

The main "fight" I had with this model was creating a sufficiently deep rebate in the top of the thick brass chassis sides to enable

the motion support bracket to sit as low as possible.

[Mallard60022]

There was an earlier post re   Urie H15 "Chonker"

 in Modelling Questions, Help and Tips Started by DLT, 24 Dec 2010 Last Post by chertsey chopper, 30 Dec 2010

It includes a drawing by Michael Edge which I hope is reproduced here as a screenshot.   Every drawing of a H15, N15, S15 etc In have seen shows the middle of the cylinders is directly under the chimney. I think getting details like cylinder centrelines and chimneys to coincide, buffers to be the right height, cabs tops and boiler mountings to be in the correct relationship, cabs and tender to match where the prototype matches  are more important than following a drawing which may itself have been done under awkward conditions, or taken from a works drawing bearing an often tenuous relationship to the finished product which actually ran on the railway..  I hope Michael Edge does not mind me re posting his drawing, it certainly looks like the rather small selection of photos of Chonkers I have been able to find...

 

Wish I'd looked for that. I like the toilet in the cab.........

However................... I have a lot to learn about looking at the details you outline in your post. Relationships between parts that should be obvious but I did not even really look at; thank you. Just for fun yesterday afternoon I started a Finecast Arthur (Mk2 with one piece boiler/firebox; I have a new chassis set to fit with this kit). I thought it was going to be a goody as I had built the tender some years ago! Ummmmm!

So far:

the smokebox doesn't fit square/flush with the boiler front;

the two part footplate and front buffer beam part are a complete arse to get lined up and square;

the cab front sits too low on the footplate so the firebox touches the window frames;

getting the boiler and footplate seated square is challenging.

I gave up after discovering that and will return to it sometime later having studied the numerous pics and dreawings I actually have this time.

Phil.

 

 

Phil

Edited October 8, 2018 by Mallard60022

[Michael Edge]

I didn't notice the toilet! 

[Mallard60022]

I didn't notice the toilet! 

Reverser Flush design Mike; maximum cut off not usually required.

Seriously, that is a very tidy drawing. Would you have one for an N15 by any chance?

 

Phil

[Michael Edge]

I'm not sure I've done a full drawing for the N15 although I did build a couple in 3mm some years ago - I must have done cutting drawings and etched motion/frames at least for those but I'm not sure where they are just now.

[Mallard60022]

I'm not sure I've done a full drawing for the N15 although I did build a couple in 3mm some years ago - I must have done cutting drawings and etched motion/frames at least for those but I'm not sure where they are just now.

If it happens to appear then fine, otherwise please do not spend time searching. I do have a simplified drawing in a book I have.

Thanks

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Oh boy, I have just gone back 8 years and looked at DLT's Southern Locos build thread and looked at his S15 DJHbuild.

Wish I had looked at that before ever starting my H15, the latter of which looks like a lump of ##### in comparison. It is almost the same locomotive to the S15 but mine really looks carp. Hey ho, I think it might get scrapped.

Phil

[Mallard60022]

Actually I've just had a thought. Did I read somewhere that whitemetal soldered things can be 'unsoldered' by placing in boiling water or was that an April Fools joke? I could face doing that and starting again and perhaps replacing 'dead' parts with scratched or RTR bits (cylinders for example). Having seen DLT's brilliant job (8 years ago....blimey) on the DJH S15 there are so many things I could now do to this as it almost exactly the same loco in that the parts and design in the kit are almost identical.

By the way, I would remember to take off the chassis before boiling the bl##dy thing 

P

[hayfield]

Yes providing low melt solder has been used. Just put the parts in the steam coming from a kettle, the 70 degree stuff just melts when the castings temperature rises above 70 degrees. I think whitemetal melts at 130 degrees or there about

[Mallard60022]

Yes providing low melt solder has been used. Just put the parts in the steam coming from a kettle, the 70 degree stuff just melts when the castings temperature rises above 70 degrees. I think whitemetal melts at 130 degrees or there about

That's the way to go then. The H15 is for the very hot treatment. 

[John Tomlinson]

On the occasions I've done the melting trick, I've found it useful to have a couple of short sticks handy, with the bit you hold at least not of metal. If you tap gently on the model as it boils this seems to help it disassemble.

 

John.

[Mallard60022]

That's the way to go then. The H15 is for the very hot treatment. 

Retracted. I decided to think again and so:

I did some forceful bending of the front end of the Footplate and tweaked the handrails. OK there is still too big a gap but I can live with that but I might just have a look at some spare Etched deflectors left from the Arthur set from SEF;

I have fitted/glued two slivers of plasticard from rear of FP by Cab to rear of Motion Bracket. That alters the 'view' of the driving wheels from layout view height. I reckon that will do and so I CBA to do the dreaded meltdown.

However, I am going to get some etched parts as per DLT's S15 build; I'd forgotten how good Markits products can be. I won't use Markits Crossheads though, at least for the time being. The gap under the boiler I can live with as it really isn't that obvious from layout viewing height.

Apologies for slight hiatus and I shall now continue this build, but maybe not right away.

Before:

 

After:

Phil 

Edited October 10, 2018 by Mallard60022

[John Tomlinson]

I misread your post at #64 and thought you had an S15 made eons ago that you were going to dismantle, not the H15!

 

Seems to me a good decision, and from the pics I certainly wouldn't be going back to square one. 

 

One observation if I may, and this is going to sound extremely heathen. On the assumption this will be a "layout" loco, the main difference to your S15 will be the fact that it is lined black, not unlined, as most of us struggle to see the difference a millimetre or so makes in the drivers as the loco hurtles along. (I'm assuming your S15 has 22mm drivers comparing to the 23mm ones here).

 

So along with a few quality add-ons, a nice black paint job and some care on the lining should really tick the box on this one.

 

John.

[Mallard60022]

I misread your post at #64 and thought you had an S15 made eons ago that you were going to dismantle, not the H15!

 

Seems to me a good decision, and from the pics I certainly wouldn't be going back to square one. 

 

One observation if I may, and this is going to sound extremely heathen. On the assumption this will be a "layout" loco, the main difference to your S15 will be the fact that it is lined black, not unlined, as most of us struggle to see the difference a millimetre or so makes in the drivers as the loco hurtles along. (I'm assuming your S15 has 22mm drivers comparing to the 23mm ones here).

 

So along with a few quality add-ons, a nice black paint job and some care on the lining should really tick the box on this one.

 

John.

Thanks John. A few Hornby S15s and a PDK kit built (not by me) version from pre Hornby days. I should have made it a bit clearer that I was looking at DLTs S15 build that uses exactly the same sort of parts and method of putting the thing together and what he did to his S15 I could have done to the H15 if I had just looked him up. I did enter a search for H15 etc but I find the search facility to be a bit confused as nothing came up and I had forgotten DLTs thread until he posted. Sorry to cause confusion on here.

Yes, the lined black H15. Black I can do, lined black may be a challenge so I might just make the loco completely filthy but probably do the cab lining if I can get decals with a suitable number set as some of that might just show with a cleaned area for the number. If I had made a better job of it or if I make a good job of a PDK that I might just get, I'd get a pro paint job done as it does not cost a great deal for a lined black example.

I was reminded about the 'layout locomotive' attitude and although I want it to look like an H15 and hopefully for it to run OK, with a few tidy detailing parts I think it will suffice. It would have only appeared at Seaton Junction once in a blue moon around my era !957 ish to 1964/5, it would have been a Salisbury engine and gone at latest 12/62

All the best.

P

Edited October 10, 2018 by Mallard60022

[30368]

I am sorry that I have not continued to follow this topic since I think I may have been able to help. The DJH H15 kit is not too bad but I agree, you have to be very careful with the boiler pitch - my model looks ok but is still a little too high. The smokebox saddle and firebox both need to be carefully reduced to arrive at the correct pitch. 

It is worth continuing to completion so keep going. A not very good picture of 30475 (DJH), 30489 - built by PDK for me.

 

I am about to start building 30491 - a PDK kit hybrid formed of a standard H15 Kit and a resin tapered Maunsell boiler as fitted to this loco to create a spare Urie H15 Boiler. Will perhaps create a new topic of the build. Please give me a shout if I can help further.

 

Kind regards,

Richard B (30368)

 

 

[hayfield]

Other things have got in the way and taking up my time. Two bits of small progress though,

 

Firstly I have a set of Alan Gibson coupling rods, secondly I have had to repair the motion on a B1 and V2 locos. This has given me both a greater understanding of how this type of arrangement works and the confidence to carry on

[John Tomlinson]

15 hours ago, 30368 said:

I am sorry that I have not continued to follow this topic since I think I may have been able to help. The DJH H15 kit is not too bad but I agree, you have to be very careful with the boiler pitch - my model looks ok but is still a little too high. The smokebox saddle and firebox both need to be carefully reduced to arrive at the correct pitch. 

It is worth continuing to completion so keep going. A not very good picture of 30475 (DJH), 30489 - built by PDK for me.

 

I am about to start building 30491 - a PDK kit hybrid formed of a standard H15 Kit and a resin tapered Maunsell boiler as fitted to this loco to create a spare Urie H15 Boiler. Will perhaps create a new topic of the build. Please give me a shout if I can help further.

 

Kind regards,

Richard B (30368)

 

 

I'd be very interested to see your forthcoming build, and I'm sure I'm not alone. A couple of months back I splashed out on a PDK "Chonker" kit, and am still wondering what to do about the driving wheels which as we've already discussed can't be 24mm in "OO".

 

John.

[30368]

Hi John,

 

Started build today and will post a new topic on the subject. This will be a first for me so hope its not too bad!

 

I have already built 30335 from a PDK kit and PDK have built me 30333 and 30489 the former with a flush running plate, from, I believe, there Maunsell h15 kit. All of these have 24mm drivers. When I built 30335 I had to very slightly remove the "peak" from the flanges on the two leading drivers so that they cleared. It is not noticeable and makes no difference to smooth running over code 75 track /points.

 

I will do the same for 30491. On another point, 30330-335 all had a longer 2nd-3rd driver wheelbase by 6 inches or 2mm. The PDK kit usefully makes provision for this although when they built 30333 for me they assumed that the extended wheelbase only applied to 30335 as did I at the time. Further research revealed this minor discrepancy so when I build the chassis for 30491 I will build the extended wheelbase version and fit it to 30333 so in a way, I already have a chassis for 30491. 

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B