Rapido UK operations

[GordonC]

I dont think anyones suggested it yet ... Prototype HST?

 

I know the joint venture with NRM was put on hold ... but would Rapido pick up the baton themselves? Its not been done before and you dont know how far they got with it research-wise and could open up into Mk3 coaches too.

[mdvle]

The worst case scenario for Rapido is that they announce a model and do the initial development work, but not enough pre-orders materialise to justify continuing with it.

 

For most announcements Rapido makes these days the tooling is already done and they are at the stage of having at least first samples, and the order book doesn't close until after (I can't recall exactly) at least final samples and I think maybe paint samples.  They also tend to like to be able to post a video showing the model in operation on a layout they visit.

[jjb1970]

Heljan developed their UK OO business by making a lot of obscure and one off prototype models that almost nobody expected to see RTR. The fact that they made so many of them suggests there is a market for the less obvious choices. So a class 89 might be a viable choice, the NRM /Rapido APT sold well enough.

[GordonC]

Heljan developed their UK OO business by making a lot of obscure and one off prototype models that almost nobody expected to see RTR. The fact that they made so many of them suggests there is a market for the less obvious choices. So a class 89 might be a viable choice, the NRM /Rapido APT sold well enough.

 

There's possibly also a bit more goodwill in choosing those kinds of prototypes in overlooking faults if the model isn't 100% which wouldn't be accepted for more common protoypes

[Legend]

I just look at the number of people who bought a prototype Deltic or Lion . There’s got to be scope for further one offs like the 89, particularly now there are other AC Electrics around.

 

I still think a Deltic with all the bells and whistles on would be a real goer though . Built to Rapido standards ,and priced accordingly. It’s not my end of the market , but there are clearly people out there who will shell out for something special. I mean who amongst us really needs a dynamometer car ,a Stirling Single or a 14 car APT , yet there are folk who have splashed the cash on these items, and probably a few with all 3

 

Models to high standards can generate their own markets

Edited September 24, 2018 by Legend

[adb968008]

I just look at the number of people who bought a prototype Deltic or Lion . There’s got to be scope for further one offs like the 89, particularly now there are other AC Electrics around.

I still think a Deltic with all the bells and whistles on would be a real goer though . Built to Rapido standards ,and priced accordingly. It’s not my end of the market , but there are clearly people out there who will shell out for something special. I mean who amongst us really needs a dynamometer car ,a Stirling Single or a 14 car APT , yet there are folk who have splashed the cash on these items, and probably a few with all 3

Models to high standards can generate their own markets

Agreed on a Deltic, it’s low hanging fruit, it depends how many companies are thinking to make it though. Edited September 24, 2018 by adb968008

[Salmotrutta]

GWR Broad gauge. No RTR competition there (apart from a bit from the BGS). Lovely looking locos that would display nicely if you can't build a layout. 

[mdvle]

My guess is it won't be anything too niche given that part of the goal is to launch a new brand onto the market.

 

Yes, many of us in RMweb are familiar with what Rapido has done for Revolution, Realtrack, etc. but that doesn't necessarily transfer the broader model railway market.  Even if they are now familiar with Revolution, etc. many will not have paid attention to the fact that Rapido was the provider behind the scenes.

 

This would be the same reason that while everyone uses Heljan as an example of being successful with niche items, Heljan launched with the Class 47 to catch the attention of the entire market.

 

The Deltic would help achieve that purpose, as would some of the other more mainstream suggestions such as a Class 31 / 37 / etc.

 

The big unknown to a certain extent is what exactly interests the 3 people at Rapido who have an interest in British trains (Jason / Bill / Gareth) as that will certainly have an influence - the Gunpowder van was started as it interested Bill and Gareth.

[TheSignalEngineer]

GWR Broad gauge. No RTR competition there (apart from a bit from the BGS). Lovely looking locos that would display nicely if you can't build a layout. 

Easy,  it will come with a box of 28.08mm gauge set track including second radius curves.

[cheesysmith]

If you are looking for older models that need a new version that they can make, i can see 4 options.

 

Deltic, big express loco, obviuos a crowd puller.

 

Class 45, especially a ETH sealed beam nose job, as that version has never been done.

 

Class 31, as the best model at the moment is the old lima tooling, and even that has errors.

 

And even older model, the transpennine DMU (and its sister the 123 intercity), as they already have the drivetrain from the 156 and the budd rdc. And the budd has so far out sold all their predictions. I would love a series of swindon DMUs, liimited runs to rapido standards. 119/120, different fronts, and the 120 would also give you the original intercity DMUs as used in scotland 126.

[adb968008]

If you are looking for older models that need a new version that they can make, i can see 4 options.

 

Deltic, big express loco, obviuos a crowd puller.

 

Class 45, especially a ETH sealed beam nose job, as that version has never been done.

 

Class 31, as the best model at the moment is the old lima tooling, and even that has errors.

 

And even older model, the transpennine DMU (and its sister the 123 intercity), as they already have the drivetrain from the 156 and the budd rdc. And the budd has so far out sold all their predictions. I would love a series of swindon DMUs, liimited runs to rapido standards. 119/120, different fronts, and the 120 would also give you the original intercity DMUs as used in scotland 126.

Replica Railways did a class 45/1 with sealed beam & headlight.

 

Three variants.. 45106, 45128 and unnumbered Blue.

 

None of them were very fast selling.

[YesTor]

However, what Rapido really needs is a high volume item on which they can get a reasonable margin and I can't think of anything, steam, diesel or electric which offers that potential that hasn't already been done. (CJL)

 

What Rapido needs for a British launch is a dead cert - and there simply aren't any. (CJL)

 

If a sealed-beam front-ended Class 45 isn't a dead cert then I don't know what is?  Subsequent production runs could no doubt be tooled-up for Class 44, 45 & 46 with all the various front-end variations.  Sure, we have the Bachmann model, but let's face it while not a bad model in itself, it is very much as old as the hills and I'm sure more features could be incorporated into a new upgrade.

[adb968008]

If a sealed-beam front-ended Class 45 isn't a dead cert then I don't know what is? P

Are you willing to bet your house on it ?

Or just encourage someone else’s ?

 

There’s always a bunch of 44/5/6 on ebay from Bachmann, they don’t command a premium and by most counts people dont raise issue with them.

 

Though to you defence, the same is true about the 24/5, though I don’t see any winners there down the road either.

 

My opinion is there’s demand for a run (750-1000 or so models) of sealed beam 45’s (at £160+ pricing) and when fulfilled that’s probably going to satisfy the market for a few years. Tooling up and expecting to sell 6000 sealed beam 45’s at £200+ Rapido standard... I can’t see it, not even 8 variations of Peaks in 2 liveries + obscure variations, I could be wrong of course.

Edited September 25, 2018 by adb968008

[wombatofludham]

Replica Railways did a class 45/1 with sealed beam & headlight.

 

Three variants.. 45106, 45128 and unnumbered Blue.

 

None of them were very fast selling.

 

The front end wasn't the right shape so it's still an open goal.  Bachmann retooled it with the correct shape front end but according to another thread their recently revised chassis doesn't fit the body used in the Modelzone limited editions Bachmann did and which now routinely fetch £250-350 on the Bay of Thief.

 

That alone shows there is pent up demand for a new run of sealed beam 45s with the correct shape nose, although Bachmann might be about to sort out the incompatibilities on their model.

[GordonC]

Replica Railways did a class 45/1 with sealed beam & headlight.

 

Three variants.. 45106, 45128 and unnumbered Blue.

 

None of them were very fast selling.

 

I really dont think you can take any insight on what will sell now based on 40 year old tooling. Didn't Replica use the old Mainline Railways Class 45 tooling and change the nose ends around?

 

Those nose end on those models didn't really look right and the market will have changed hugely in that time from open goals everywhere for things to produce to only small niche's left

[dibber25]

That alone shows there is pent up demand for a new run of sealed beam 45s with the correct shape nose, although Bachmann might be about to sort out the incompatibilities on their model.

 

So the ones on Ebay at £250-350 are too expensive (I assume the 'thief' reference means that) and Bachmann might be about to sort theirs. Doesn't exactly sound like a 'dead cert' to me. (CJL)

[Legend]

With all major diesel classes covered there can’t be any dead certs , except for an Ayrshire 126 Swindon unit of course!

 

There looks to be a demand for sealed beam peaks , but it’s not exactly got a Wow factor . Still think a really high spec Deltic ticks the boxes for an introduction into the UK market . It’s going to be a premium product at a premium price. It must be differentiated enough from existing models that people want to own one and pay the extra. I quite like my Bachmann one (bought for £79 I think, new,just can’t remember when) but others see issue with shape of nose . The Hornby one really is the Lima one from 1976 and really won’t stand up to scrutiny , so I think there is an opening there .

 

With Bachmann development times there’s probably not a lot of risk they’ll bring out a new one ahead of Rapido. Hornby May be working on something , so that’s a risk.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Legend

[RedgateModels]

Probably classed as wishlisting, but a really good class 44 would attract my attention too - 009 Snowdon as a preference

[adb968008]

I really dont think you can take any insight on what will sell now based on 40 year old tooling. Didn't Replica use the old Mainline Railways Class 45 tooling and change the nose ends around?

 

Those nose end on those models didn't really look right and the market will have changed hugely in that time from open goals everywhere for things to produce to only small niche's left

Your comparing a 30 year old model, to today.

You need to compare a 30 year model to its co-peers...

 

1. At its time the Replica class 45 was better than the Lima 33/50/55 and more detailed than any Hornby modern loco (which was still making those dreadful 37/47s, not to mention that 08).

 

2. It was around at the time popularity for a peak was at its Zenith when the last Tinsley ones were dragging themselves about.. I myself made my way to TI several times and had a couple of Replicas unnamed 45’s numbered up as TI’s last with the painted names... but still...

 

3. An additional point remains, against those models.. Lima abandoned its plan to make a 44/45/46, unlike the 92 where they went head to head with Hornby.

 

4. Bachmann made a sealed beam 46 also used the same Mainline tooling.. it had a far superior motor to any other modern image loco in the UK market... but yet 46045 and 46026 took an eon to sell out... the ixion limited was a bomb, despite being the 1st preserved loco running on BR... it still is today on ebay.

 

5. At that time, I worked In a shop that took a minimum of 10 of everything Lima made, sometimes as many as 30... regardless what it was. Replica 45’s came in 1s and 2’s, the 46 came in 4’s... they were shelfware for much longer and often only attracted interest as Lima sold out. Often I sold Bachmann 46 chassis to people wanting to upgrade older Replica/Mainline ones, same too for bodies as it was the only way to move them. That shop was in proximity to a preserved 45.

 

6. Then look at the real thing, how many 45’s are up on Network Rail.. 0. Against a plethora of type 4s and 5’s. 45112 and 46035 are gone, but we have 40’s, 47’s, 50’s, 55’s and a 52... it’s hardly a ringing endorsement.

 

So that’s my 6 uneducated rationale reasons why I don’t think demand for a single version of a peak is a “dead cert”, For sure if someone wants to sink a mortgage in to a 45 good luck to them, afterall we have 3 class 24/5 options to choose from.

 

So my question is what’s changed since the early 1990’s when the last 45’s were in service, to make a sealed beam so popular, other than it is the one and only remaining variation Bachmann hasn’t done (beyond a ltd edition for Model Zone ?) and if Bachmann announced a trio next year I think would probably satisfy the market for a few years, bring down the price of the model zone one, and likely rub out any return for a competitor.

Edited September 25, 2018 by adb968008

[Fenman]

Like gardenwall a few pages back I’m curious about scale.

 

If I were entering the UK market I’d be looking at both the difficulty of finding a good prototype in 00 and the surprising recent growth in 0.

 

Manufacturers and big retailers who know this market seem to have reduced investment in N, struggled to find mainstream subjects in 00, but put much more effort into 0.

 

Paul

[RedgateModels]

Like gardenwall a few pages back I’m curious about scale.

 

If I were entering the UK market I’d be looking at both the difficulty of finding a good prototype in 00 and the surprising recent growth in 0.

 

Manufacturers and big retailers who know this market seem to have reduced investment in N, struggled to find mainstream subjects in 00, but put much more effort into 0.

 

Paul

 

Oh no, an O gauge Rapido Deltic (or maybe Prototype!) not sure my bank balance would survive ......

[adb968008]

Like gardenwall a few pages back I’m curious about scale.

If I were entering the UK market I’d be looking at both the difficulty of finding a good prototype in 00 and the surprising recent growth in 0.

Manufacturers and big retailers who know this market seem to have reduced investment in N, struggled to find mainstream subjects in 00, but put much more effort into 0.

Paul

O is indeed a growth market right now.

It’s limitations are obvious.. expensive track and rolling stock, plus need for space.

However it is likely to have a market for the long haul.

 

I think manufacturers are investing cash, to take market share and land grab prototypes, as its unlikely O will have tooling war as is the case in OO, once your tooled it, it’s yours.

There’s some sweet deals in O gauge, and i’d Grab them whilst you can, as there’s only 1 direction that price will go down the road, which is the constraint O will eternally face.

 

It’s a fad, unless we get lots of land to play trains most are stuck on OO, as most people can barely run 3 coaches in OO let alone O. Though I do predict growth for “downsizers” : retirees who don’t/can’t manage the intractices of OO any longer, many on small termini for tank engines. I’ll eat my hat and get grumpy if O gauge gets a class 124 in rtr before OO, they already got a 120 grrrr !

Edited September 25, 2018 by adb968008

[mdvle]

I suspect there is no such thing as a "dead cert" in any of the UK scales at this point.

 

But consider this.  A frequent argument against a new model is that "nobody will upgrade to the new model" because the old model is good enough.

 

So if the only way to sell a train model today is that it has to replace an existing model in someone's collection, then how are Bachmann, Hornby, etc surviving?  How are they announcing new runs of existing tooling if everybody already has all the models they need?

 

The answer of course is that the argument is nonsense.  Whether it is new people to the hobby, replacing broken models, change of focus, etc. people are still buying new models regardless of them being new tooling or reruns of existing tooling.

 

Which means there is opportunity for newly tooled models that are more accurate.

[dibber25]

I suspect there is no such thing as a "dead cert" in any of the UK scales at this point.

 

But consider this.  A frequent argument against a new model is that "nobody will upgrade to the new model" because the old model is good enough.

 

So if the only way to sell a train model today is that it has to replace an existing model in someone's collection, then how are Bachmann, Hornby, etc surviving?  How are they announcing new runs of existing tooling if everybody already has all the models they need?

 

The answer of course is that the argument is nonsense.  Whether it is new people to the hobby, replacing broken models, change of focus, etc. people are still buying new models regardless of them being new tooling or reruns of existing tooling.

 

Which means there is opportunity for newly tooled models that are more accurate.

 

No one is denying that. The problem is the risk that there aren't enough people seeking to replace older models - especially if the new one has a compromise that they don't like (and models always have compromises) or it has a coreless motor, or it has a DCC sound speaker that they don't want etc etc. There may actually be better volume if the manufacturer strikes lucky with a Class 89 or some obscure one-off that hasn't been done before, than with repeating a Deltic or a Class 45 or a Class 25 that a previous manufacturer got almost right. Whilst a manufacturer maybe able to get by on break-evens or near misses for a while, every so often he needs a real money-spinner. (CJL)

[Matt]

Does anyone remember the HotWheels toy cars that when you crashed them into things, a section rotated to make it look like a crashed car?  Well how about a peak that can change its appearance to the one damaged in the nuclear flask demo when rammed into an FNA.  I'd buy one!!