Alex Williams Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 Just seen a discussion about this somewhere else using an indoor water fountain pump, sorry, lost the link. This intrigues me. Has anyone tried adding a river with real water to their layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I've seen it done, but, sadly, it just doesn't "scale". By this I mean that the depth of water that could be accomodated on a model tends to flow far too fast for anything but a mountain stream. You also have the problems of containing it and constant topping up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Sidelines Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I suspect that if you carried out 'dimensional analysis' that to scale stream flow you might need to use a fluid other than water. Just think what might be possible with say alcohol? That would certainly be difficult to keep topped up. Cheers Ray Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Piewalker Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 If you had an infinity pool style drop off at the end I suppose you could have a level meandering river. Maybe a rocky 'rapids' section in the middle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 12, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 12, 2018 Real water doesn't scale down to 1:76. It flows too quickly, 76 times too quickly in fact, and the surface tension is about a scale 9 inches, so it looks ridiculous. I am not aware of any liquid that could perform the function anything like realistically; you would need something more viscous to slow the flow and this means even more overscale surface tension, and this is before any problems regarding fumes, chemical reaction with surrounding material, or evaporation are considered. Related to surface tension is the issue of foam where rapids, waterfalls, boat wakes, or waves are attempted. There are materials that scale down very well, like stone, coal, and wood, but I cannot think of any liquid that does. Any attempt to include running or for that matter static real water on a layout will look gimmicky and wrong; I have to admire the determination of those who do it on exhibition layouts. where spillages and handling have to be taken into account as well, but it looks awful! This is only my opinion, of course (though it is a fact that water flowing on a 00 layout will be moving 76 times too fast; we try to run trains at scale speed, mostly anyway) and good luck to anyone who wants to have a go; don't let me rain on your parade. I've been thinking about using a mister to provide 4mm scale rain on my layout, but the logistics are just too much for me; drainage, waterproofing my scenery, possible electrical issues. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 (edited) Never mind all the issues regarding leaks etc. When you see models and water in films, assuming its not all computer generated, the film is invariably slowed down to make it more realistic Edit. Actually I think it's shot faster and then the resulting film slowed down. Edited October 12, 2018 by rovex 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium petethemole Posted October 12, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2018 It's certainly been done, "Karolina Falls" was at Fareham last weekend and was receiving a lot of attention. Here's a video of it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P282-CFLbH8 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 12, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 12, 2018 Static water can work and can allow for moving boats, but I have never seen an effective bit of moving water on a layout. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex Williams Posted October 13, 2018 Author Share Posted October 13, 2018 Thanks all, very helpful replies. Something to ponder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2018 If you ever get a chance, check out the old black and white film 'Sink the Bismark', which shows up on afternoon tv sometimes, or have a look on YouTube. This is filmed slo-mo using model ships in a tank, at a fairly large scale, and shows the limitations; it doesn't look at all like the North Atlantic, or like anything much bigger than a village duck pond, and the ships' bow waves and shell splashes don't cut it at all. There are other inaccuracies as well, but we'll forgive them since the right side won... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Hi all, I have seen real water used several times and to be honest in anything smaller than 16mm it looks awful. Besides the actual inconstancy's mentioned here it always looks too clean Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeg Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 The Alsager club had an N gauge layout with a stream running across it some years ago which was quite convincing as they had put dye in the water which stopped the shine you get on plain water IIRC there was a small lake with canoes on it that were moved by magnets under the plastic container that they had used to form the lake. I think that they have retired the layout now but someone at the club will be able to give details I am sure if anyone is interested. Regards mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted October 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2018 Some years back, there was a cartoon in Model Railroader, depicting a modeller who had gone in for real water big-time. Things were clearly not good, however, with water pouring everywhere. He was writing a letter "Dear Editor, I can hardly wait for the next instalment of 'Waterfalls with Real Water'". You have been warned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cypherman Posted October 13, 2018 Share Posted October 13, 2018 Here are some piccy's showing modelled and real water. You can decide which you like best. Now these piccy's are from a 16mm layout so it does work better than 00. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted October 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 13, 2018 The real water does look better but the other water looks like someone has modelled a body of water that is covered in duck weed using bright green sugar icing for some reason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dunsignalling Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) OK for still water, so long as one can do something about the over-scale meniscus, and overcome the physical problem of reliably containing the stuff. Not easy unless it's incorporated into a firmly supported permanent layout structure. However, the OP's query was about representing a river and, as pointed out by others, full size water never looks or behaves like anything other than full size water as soon as movement is introduced. John Edited October 14, 2018 by Dunsignalling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Anything to do with fluids doesn't scale easily. It's why I don't like smoke units much either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2018 The real water does look better but the other water looks like someone has modelled a body of water that is covered in duck weed using bright green sugar icing for some reason Yes, the sugar icing green water is not the best rendition of a water surface I have ever seen! Static, stagnant, water can be represented fairly effectively in 4mm, but not by using water if you see what I mean; moving water, which is what the OP wants, is another thing altogether. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Bigbee Line Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 Always possible. There was a layout that had the tide come in and out. But comes with a big list of essentials. On an exhibition layout the water could be changed every time and the boards dried out for transit. In a home / permanent layout. You would need to consider precautions against legionella. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ian Morgan Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgO8HPVNqYU 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Kris Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2018 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgO8HPVNqYU Some very impressive modelling there, and about the best use of water that I have seen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Johnster Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 14, 2018 At the risk of being contentious, that's an awful use of water, and a perfect example of all my comments; the water's movement, and that of the ships moving in it, is 76 times too fast. Real ship handling with tugs in confined areas like docks is done very slowly indeed, and an impact with a quayside at even walking pace can cause massive damage to both parties. And no dock has water that clean. Impressive, though, I have to allow. Gives a good impression of how big some of those WW1 battleships really were, and some lovely factory, shipyard, and warehouse buildings. And I'm impressed with the RC skills of the tug skippers! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Holliday Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 David and Shirley Rowe did a superb exhibit, Exebridge Quay, exquisitely detailed in their inimitable style. It used real water for the dock basin and incorporated at least moving swans, and perhaps boats, and a rotating bridge. The water wasn't flowing, but I seem to think the tide ebbed and flowed during the course of an exhibition. I have just been to the Croydon Exhibition today, and one layout, Pont d'Elaulne et Traveaux de Graviers, made use of real water, although not flowing. One example was a nicely modelled river The other was certainly innovative, and very surprising. A flooded gravel pit has been created, and the HO9 diesel shunter could safely make its way through the water, with amazing reliablity. I was assured tap water was used, nothing partlcularly special, and the loco was picking up from the rails; not battery trickery involved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
w124bob Posted October 14, 2018 Share Posted October 14, 2018 (edited) I spent a couple of hours operating O gauge Tollesbury Quay recently, on that the tide comes in and out. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-weUtKXAK56Q/VnAyO0x98jI/AAAAAAAAG94/WmnKig70y8s/s1600/IMGP8015%2B-%2BCopy.JPG Tide coming in ,in the picture. Try to get a copy of MRJ246 for layout write up with a description of how the tide works, got my copy off Ebay. Buckets, piping and a sort of drip feed, there's even a sealed baseboard joint. A small leak, well drip really, occured but from a poor bucket to pipe joint. Operaters must remember to alter the clock for tides. Edited October 14, 2018 by w124bob Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ba14eagle Posted October 14, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 14, 2018 The most impressive use of real water on a model railway must be in Hamburg - and its not 4mm, but 3.5mm scale Follow the video through to the Scandinavian section Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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