The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[Allegheny1600]

Is it only me? Doesn't anyone else find the experience of an intense air pressure shock wave whenever 2 trains pass or a tunnel is entered something totally unacceptable in this day and age? This is an integral part of the comfort equation in my book.

 

Hello Colin,

No, it is definitely not only you that finds this effect incredibly uncomfortable! I HATE it.

In the interest of fairness however, I must add that I have also experienced this effect on TGV's running on the LGV Atlantique so I am intrigued to read that the Italians and Japanese don't suffer this. I can't say that I've noticed it in Germany either. 

[Pete the Elaner]

Always seemed a mixed bag on whether people would shut them or not from what I remember as a kid when they were still reasonably common.

 

People may manage their house and car but I frequently end up getting up to push the door shut in my local.

Using a train is different to a car.

When leaving your car, you are probably the only one using the door, or on the rare occasion when you do leave it for someone else, you will know them otherwise you would not be sharing the same car.

When you get on a train (assuming those who are getting off have done so first), you will probably be boarding with people you don't know, so will have been less likely to have check the queue behind. Even you have checked, you may have got on & be unaware that someone is running along the side of the coach trying to board just before it 

[Reorte]

Using a train is different to a car.

When leaving your car, you are probably the only one using the door, or on the rare occasion when you do leave it for someone else, you will know them otherwise you would not be sharing the same car.

When you get on a train (assuming those who are getting off have done so first), you will probably be boarding with people you don't know, so will have been less likely to have check the queue behind. Even you have checked, you may have got on & be unaware that someone is running along the side of the coach trying to board just before it 

As far as I remember when they were still common most (but certainly not all) people would shut the door if they were the last on or off. I say certainly not all because I can quite clearly remember cottoning on to the doors being closed by the station staff as being the sign that the train was about to leave. These were all staffed stations that are still staffed mind, I hardly remember a thing about the odd occasion we were on stoppers at unstaffed stations.

[Pete the Elaner]

I believe that this is a side-effect of our comparatively restricted loading gauge in the UK.  It's simply far less generous than Berne gauge and UIC structural gauge, thus there is nowhere/ less space for the pressurised air to go, during the piston effect experienced when two trains meet.

 

The effect is nothing to do with air-tightness of the stock itself; if that were a problem then all manner of tornado-like draughts would be evident at all times 

 

 

EDIT: What Reorte said!

I think is can be a mixture of both.

Our railways were among the earliest, so we did the learning for everyone else. Most of our lines were built when trains did not run anywhere near as quickly, so aero shudder was not an issue.

Stock with plug doors copes with this much better than anything with sliding doors or windows. It is usually the premium services which get the newer technology (like plug doors) first.

The HST's opening windows are in the vestibules, not the seating area anyway. If you want a more fair comparison, look at Chiltern's rebuilt Mk3s. Any Mk3s remaining on the network will be going through a similar conversion pretty soon.

For comfort, the air suspension & soft seating of a well maintained mark 3 beats anything built since.

[jjb1970]

The newer trains are much smoother when passing each other, I still sometimes use class 319 services on the WCML and when they pass another train it feels like the windows and doors will be blown in (although in fairness the noises coming from the things in general makes you appreciative of the fact they still move under their own power). For all I detest the appalling ride of the class 350 trains they do have a very solid feel and do not feel anything like as violent when passing each other at speed. I'd say they were not much different to European trains, even Shinkansen trains pant a bit when passing (try resting your face against the window) or standing in a vestibule.

 

On doors, at one time people were familiar with slam doors on trains but even many people who used those trains for years seem to have forgotten how they worked if they do not live on a route served by Mk.3 coaches. I believe it is genuine ignorance, in this day and age many people really do assume all train doors are powered and can almost freeze when they look for the door open button and realise there isn't one.

[Ken.W]

One interesting theme that comes up time and again in feedback is the relative comfort of the old HSTs vs newer stock.

 

Is it only me? Doesn't anyone else find the experience of an intense air pressure shock wave whenever 2 trains pass or a tunnel is entered something totally unacceptable in this day and age? This is an integral part of the comfort equation in my book.

 

Sitting on the "inside" i.e. nearest the opposite line I almost jumped out of my skin on one occasion. I was rear facing so didn't anticipate the oncoming train (remember all our reservations had been nixed for that leg). It greatly amused the grandchildren though.

 

I did note this in my first post and haven't seen a single response, perhaps this is considered acceptable in the UK?

 

Yes, it was rather unfortunate that, as I  posted earlier, you happened to get the one EC set that's not up to the same standard as the rest.

(The EC has 15 HST and 30 Mk4 sets btw)

 

The tunnel issue's largely, as others have said, due to our legacy of mostly victorian tunnels with quite tight clearances, even for our loading gauge, and much higher speeds than were envisaged for them.

Purpose built high speed lines tend to have much greater clearances, besides being to a larger load gauge, and other features such as funnel like entrances, to reduce the shock of hitting them and the piston in cylender effect.

All trains still need to be ventilated, even if this is done through an aircon system with no opening windows, so aren't really sealed. At one time there was a problem with the Mk4s being too well sealed - it wasnt, at the time, advisable to use the toilets on them in tunnels!

The HSTs do tend to suffer more than most with this though, with their speed and the opening door windows. Although as has been said they're out in the vestibule, the saloons are ventilated through a grill in the vestibule door, so when the windows are left open they can exacerbate the issue (and as has been noted, some find it difficult to comprehend closing a door after them, fewer still a window!).

One measure taken to limit this is limiting line speeds through tunnels. It's notable that nowhere on the EC route through a tunnel has a permitted speed greater than 115, and several are lower. At Welwyn, the last time line speeds were raised, they were raised 10mph higher for the Down (northbound) than the Up, as this was considered more benificial to services, within the overall combined speed limitation. Most of the tunnels to there also have higher speeds for the Down direction.

 

I guess though, it is a more genrally accepted issue here, as it's down to the infrastucture, and you do tend to get used to it - although, I do usually have the benefit of seeing the other train coming first! 

[brack]

When two Pacers pass each other you definitely don't notice the pressure wave.

 

Too busy noticing the leaking roof/doors, uncomfortable seats, worrying if it's actually bouncing along the sleepers, the flange squeal and the metallic burning smell from the radiator scalding your legs whilst somehow not heating the carriage up...

[Fat Controller]

On Mk.3 doors I have seen a few people who needed to be helped as they couldn't figure out how to open the door and who were frantically looking for the button to make it work. I remember the first time I saw it I found it highly amusing then I sort of realised that the idea of leaning out of a window to use an outside door handle is a rather dated idea to say the least and for people who don't travel on trains very often it must be one of those things you just wouldn't think of doing (I'm struggling to think of anything else where you hang out of a window to use an outside door handle). Especially when power operated doors have been the norm on so many trains for so long now.

There are many who struggle with opening external door handles from inside, not because of a lack of understanding, but simply because they are too short. Anyone under about 5' will struggle, especially if the drop-light doesn't open fully, and opening these is itself difficult if you are relatively short. 

[ColinK]

Living in the North West, rail travel this summer has been awful. Sadly, its so bad I only make rail journeys when I have to.

 

Northern’s daily cancellations make weekday travel a lottery, most Saturdays there are strikes and on Sundays many services don’t run as staff decide not to volunteer for work.

 

TransPennine’s Manchester to Scotland services are so overcrowded its a unpleasant journey where you often have to stand.

 

The only exception is Virgin West Coast where punctuality is good and the staff excellent.

 

Recently I was changing from a TPE service to Northern at Huddersfield. The TPE service was a few minutes late and the Northern service departed as I was just yards from it. I missed the connection by 10 seconds resulting in an hours wait for the next one.

[JDW]

Having followed this thread for the last few days, I happened to make a last minute decision to go to Edinburgh today on the train.  I bought the tickets yesterday, travelling LNER both ways, 0952 from Aberdeen and 1833 return, first class advance tickets.  I have to say, I was pretty impressed.  Its a journey I've done before, although more often than not on Scotrail in standard class.  The first class service was as good as, if not better than, last time I used it on this stretch of line.  Bacon butties (with butter and ketchup), with croissants as an alternative, and tea and orange juice were served not long after leaving by efficient, polite, friendly staff.  The stock was a HST set, the seats, although harder than some, were comfortable, the carriage was clean and bright, everything worked.  The only point of note was that the headrests still had Virgin logos. 

 

The return was just as good, despite the train arriving some 9 minutes late into Edinburgh from London, and being further delayed on its way north by the even later running CrossCountry Penzance - Aberdeen in front of us.  However, the staff were again friendly and polite, serving food to a very busy first class contingent efficiently, with a good selection on offer.  I opted for lamb casserole and mashed potatoes and a glass of Coke, my friend choosing the hot sausage roll.  The portion could have been larger, but it was very good quality, and thoroughly enjoyable, with crisps and a chocolate muffin for desert, accompanied by a mug of tea.  The quality of all the food served was excellent.  Considering that the train had come from London, the set was generally clean. 

 

The only let-down on the return was that there were noticeable satches through the couplings which I initially thought might be down to one of the power cars briefly losing grip when accelerating, causing the other to give a bit of a kick from behind, but it seemed too frequent for that.  It certainly made it hard to drink a cup of tea at times without the fear of it being sloshed on you, something I thankfully avoided.  But generally a very good experience.

[E3109]

OP, interesting perspective there as a visitor and your comments are useful.

 

What I will say though, is that the good old 'Trams' (HSTs) have always been superb, especially in their original format where the seats lined up with the windows, due to various refits that was a long time ago now.

 

Had a recent trip to Cornwall and it was an HST that rolled in at Taunton. Now perhaps it was because I'd suffered a rammed 4-car XC Voyager from Brum to there (standing all the way) but boarding that train was just lovely. The GWR upgrades were great and I can't understand why they're getting rid.

 

With my enthusiast head on, I detested HSTs as they binned a lot of LHCS but the railway isn't run on sentiment, and nor should it be.

But it's widely acknowledged that they basically saved BR from oblivion, a view that I concur with absolutely and also, what does their age have to do with it? Railway equipment is DESIGNED to last decades. And they've been repowered recently anyway.

 

The mk3 is still the industry-accepted benchmark for comfort. It was a sad day when the mk3 was ditched from the WCML for something way more inferior. Porthole 'Windows' do not belong on a train. Shaving 30 mins off a journey is secondary to comfort, in my opinion. Only today I had to suffer a rammed Pendo unit to Euston and the only view available was the interior bodyside and the bloke opposite, picking his nose.

 

I take your points regarding discharge toilets, but this hardly affects you as a passenger unless you got blowback, thus why is this relevant to your travel experiences?

I also agree with you (to a point) about the doors and drop lights, but this has been sorted on quite a number of mk3s of late.

I say 'to a point' because Hermetically-sealed just doesn't do it for me... Although that's just my own view.

 

I genuinely hope to see HST sets being exported for further use elsewhere, when this throwaway society we live in foolishly gets rid of stuff that will easily last another 40 years.

 

IMHO, it stinks that perfectly serviceable and comfortable stock is being binned purely due to 'age' when there is a massive lack of stock on the railway in the first place.

Edited October 24, 2018 by E3109

[BWsTrains]

OP here, time for some more feedback.

 

Our fellow travellers to York (i.e. my grandchildren and their Dad) went back to London via Pendolino from Birmingham. They were the ones so amused at my hitting the metaphorical roof when another train PASSED us (not a tunnel, note).

They were so impressed by the superior journey on the Pendolino and the lack of buffeting when trains passed they were telling their cousin all about the hilarious incident with Grandpa! Clearly they could see how bad the IC125 was WRT to buffeting when trains passed. 

 

I don't think the WCML tracks are likely to have been relaid much further apart (but happy to be corrected here if so) and if not this goes to my point about crucial lack of comfort when HS trains lack sufficient sealing.

 

Regarding toilets, it turns out I was inconvenienced (sorry for pun); needing a "major" visit that was a few mins before pulling into station, I found myself 1) unable to flush (unpleasant in confined space) 2) having to wait several minutes until the train was well out of station. I don't think that's any good at all however much others think it might be OK.

 

Finally, (and I've put on helmet and heavy body armour here!) the aggregate of comments on balance seems to be today's newer trains are inferior to "The Train that Saved British Rail". If this is true it is a very sad reflection on what has been accepted by the public, less comfort, more cramped etc. 

 

In the 40 or so years since IC125 made such an impact on UK rail travel, the level of comfort in general of air travel has advanced with every new generation of Aircraft, who would prefer a 747 these days over an A380, A350 or 787?

Where the modern experience can be let down is when the supplier (Airline) crams in more seats per row or reduces seat pitch. If anyone doubts this try Emirates 10 seats across 777 on a 12 hour flight versus the normal 9 across.

 

Likewise as I've cited in Post #1, wherever else I've made comparable INTERCITY journeys in other countries, there have been notable and continuing advances in overall travel quality in the last 20 years. UK travellers seem to be accepting of a much poorer deal.

 

Colin      

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jjb1970]

I’ll don protective gear also and point out that for a long time enthusiasts were probably the biggest critics of the HST basically because they were dismissed as DMUs and hated for replacing various locomotives (especially Deltics). From a passenger perspective I thought the original intercity 70 seats were dire, it was the train that set the trend for windows not lining up with seating and there was that issue with smelly brakes. Also, the air-con could be a bit hit and miss, possibly because of the drop windows being left open.

 

In considering whether new trains are better or worse it is seldom as simple as saying a train is absolutely better or worse. I detest the ride quality of the Class 350 with a passion but in just about every other respect they’re a much better train than the 321 they replaced and the 319 which is still used for some WCML services. Also, when talking about trains what are we really comparing with old and new? The Mk.3 coaches still in service are very different from when they were new, mostly for the better IMO. The Chiltern Mk.3’s received a very thorough refurbishment and upgrade.

 

I see two recurring issues with modern British trains, one is the general decline in ride quality which is resulting in some dreadfully poor riding trains and the other is the conflation of outer suburban commuter and inter regional trains which is leading to some unfortunate high density layouts for trains deployed on long services.

[Nelson Jackson]

In Ireland and Northern Ireland things were pretty poor to be honest.

 

Could maybe say this for a few years ago, but definitively not now.

[brack]

Could maybe say this for a few years ago, but definitively not now.

Lived there 2001-3, been back for visits in 2006 and 2007, not since. Glad if things have improved.

[E3109]

Hi Colin (BW)

 

Points taken about toilets, although as I understand it they have to be retrofitted with retention tanks by a certain date, which isn't far off now. I believe certain charter stock may have an exemption (?).

I've noticed a number of 150s, 319s etc refitted with a larger WC 'room' of late, no doubt to comply with disabled person regs so I imagine these will be around for a while.

 

On a Pendo, I always make a bid for the smaller WCs, as these don't have 'witty' announcements to humour you while doing your business.

[Pete the Elaner]

In considering whether new trains are better or worse it is seldom as simple as saying a train is absolutely better or worse. I detest the ride quality of the Class 350 with a passion but in just about every other respect they’re a much better train than the 321 they replaced and the 319 which is still used for some WCML services.

The 350s may sway a little but are a lot more civilised than the 321. It was quite normal on the 321 to be bounced until you felt a sudden jolt & a loud thud to go with it. I assume was the suspension hitting its bump stop?

I was standing for the entire journey on a 350 from Euston to MK recently without having to reach for something to hold on to at any time.

[Coryton]

Perhaps had all those profits extracted from various franchises been available for reinvestment in infrastructure or rolling stock things might be significantly improved?

Our current system costs the public purse over 3 times what BR cost pre privatisation (adjusted for inflation).

 

Maybe it was different at the start, but unless I've been lied to the profits being extracted from the railway system in the UK now are really rather small and not a significant cause of any increase in costs over the pre-privatised railway.

 

I recently used DB, and was decidedly underwhelmed. Trains were late and dirty, and pretty expensive. I wouldn't say it offered anything superior to the UK, other than their proper transport policy over the past few decades meant that all the journeys were undertaken on an electric train.

 

I wouldn't say that what I've seen on DB overall is a great improvement over the UK.

 

But the UK doesn't let you sit comfortably on a train doing 300 kph with a nice view out the front through the cab, with a waiter coming down from the buffet car offering drinks...

 

(Perhaps I shouldn't mention the time the driver opened the door from the carriage into the cab and it fell off the hinges)

 

It's noticeable but I've never felt it severe enough or uncomfortable enough to be bothered about it in the slightest, certainly not enough to label it as something that needs sorting, let along unacceptable. The one time I've felt "that was a bit much" I was on a Pacer.

At those speeds more needs to be done because the shock might well get dangerous. I don't think it's anything to do with how sealed the carriages are but simply the impact of a column of air being pushed down a tunnel by a fast train hitting another train, although different trains will respond differently to how they're being hit. Presumably tunnels designed for high speed trains have more space so a train moving in one is less like a cylinder in a piston, and possibly other pressure relief mechanisms.

 

No, I think that carriages on high speed trains are generally sealed.

[Coryton]

All trains still need to be ventilated, even if this is done through an aircon system with no opening windows, so aren't really sealed. 

 

 

Yes, but it's quite possible to arrange for them to seal themselves before entering a tunnel, and I believe that this is done on high speed lines.

[rockershovel]

I’ve remarked on this before, but I was greatly impressed with the HST when they first appeared.

 

There was no comparison with the clapped-out old LHCS which they replaced. I remember my first experiences of commuting to London, in the mid-80s, and it wasn’t remotely amusing; ancient LHCS with no lighting, no heating, sometimes with toilets that didn’t work. I would often catch the early morning services, anything from 0536 onwards and in winter I wore one of those Swedish Army sheepskin parkas that you could buy in Army Surplus shops in most High Streets. Slump in the corner, fold up the collar and doze in the frigid gloom..

[E3109]

Can I just add a personal experience as staff.

These days the norm is dog eat dog, the vast number of discrete companies created out of nothing will as ever fight amongst themselves if only for an extra penny in their favour.

Artificial market etc.

I can't claim any heritage really as I only caught the arse end of BR's existence and in any case, when I joined BR I would've been classed as peripheral staff (or 'contractor' these days).

Although I will add, that working for BR was like 1) working for your mum and 2) you had a genuine feeling that you were doing something good for the country.

 

Any road. A train had failed in front of the one I was a passenger on. Luckily the track layout allowed a diversionary route, albeit a freight line (passed for EMUs mind).

Once I became aware of the situation I immediately let the platform staff know.

Long story short, I conducted the train via the freight route in order to keep the job moving. Saved at least an hour.

End of the day there were perhaps 500 punters on that train, not that it would've made a difference if there were 5 pax still would've done the same.

 

I care very little for the magnates/idiots who currently call the shots on our railway.

In fact, I'd have many of them put on a charge of some sort, not that this is relevant here.

What I do care about, passionately, is the people who choose to pay to use our railway and just because I'm currently a freight man this doesn't make any difference, I was brought up in the BR mentality which basically meant you actually cared about keeping the wheels turning.

Had a chat with my boss the other day about this and he was pleasantly surprised that I said I would've conducted the unit even if I was off duty (even though it's still a rule book requirement).

 

I'd like to think that the majority of staff would do the same, although frankly I'm no longer sure these days.

[HillsideDepot]

A timely reminder, E3109, that its the staff and not the trains (be they new or old) that make the railway tick, and a good opportunity to share three examples from my travels on GWR last Wednesday where staff did that "extra bit".

 

The Train Manager on a West Country bound IET is checking tickets and there is a teenager siting a few seats away from me. It transpires that this person is off to Exeter, and somehow (maybe he had the prospectus on the table) the TM works out that he is looking at possible university places. So a brief conversation ensues "off to Exeter to look at the university?" "Yes" "It's a nice city, and the university has a good reputation. Enjoy your visit, and I hope you get whatever grades you need." All very pleasant, and off she goes checking tickets. About two rows on, she stops and returns to our prospective student. "You really ought to get a Young Person's Railcard you know, especially if you'll be travelling to and from university. Look for the leaflet at the station" and away she goes again ticket checking. 

 

A little later, a Driver stands at Bristol Parkway waiting to go "home" and finish having been relieved on his Cardiff bound IET. A member of platform staff, getting news of a change of platform for the Exeter train makes a PA announcement in advance of automatic Annie catching up with things and making her own announcement. This announcement causes two ladies sitting near to where the Driver is to discuss where "St Davids" actually is, and some confusion arises. The Driver, hearing this, advises that they are correct St Davids shopping centre is in Cardiff, but St Davids station is in Exeter. A few minutes later, the Exeter train rolls in and as the Driver walks to catch it he double checks that they are sure they want the Cardiff train and not this one to Exeter.

 

That evening, and for whatever reason the catering trolley has run out of hot water. Not a problem for our jovial Steward who whilst entering into the party mood of a group of six passengers in the middle of the coach was more than happy to head to a catering point up the train and fill the requested cups. It was after 10 at night, a time when in days of yore the buffet counter would have been closed, yet here was a staff member no doubt coming towards the end of his shift, displaying an attitude towards his customers which really shone. 

 

Just three little examples which, while not keeping the wheels turning, show staff willing to do that little bit extra. Go that little bit beyond the job spec. To me that is "The State of UK Rail" far more than an aged HST, or squealing Pacer.

[rockershovel]

I had good experiences of GWR staff during my recent “Northern adventure” during Storm Callum. XC staff were quite useless, not least because they were obviously badly let down by their Ops Managers, and it obviously affected their attitude. One Conductor simply hid in his cubicle and wasn’t seen for the whole journey, mind you given the quality of his information, he was probably wise to do so.

[APOLLO]

Gentlemen Should Please Refrain

Passengers will please refrain
From flushing toilets while the train
Is standing in the station for a while.
We encourage constipation
While the train is in the station.
Cross your legs and grit your teeth and smile.

Piddling while the train is moving
Is another way of proving
That control of hand and eye is sure.
We like to keep our toilets neat
So please don't pee upon the seat
Or, what is worse, excrete upon the floor.

Gentlemen also please refrain
From passing water while the train
Is standing at the station in full view
'Cos railway workers underneath
May cop it in the eyes and teeth
And they don't like it: how the hell would you ?

 

Brit15


 

[Allegheny1600]

Stories of British staff going the extra mile are all shining examples of what the railway should be all about and I heartily approve.

May I just point out that staff (& passengers) on other railway systems also have a similarly dedicated devotion to the job?

 

Back in Germany in 2014 during the train drivers strike, my good friend Doug and I would have been stranded in a small station on the outskirts of Nurnburg late at night when trains were cancelled. DB did lay on a bus that was inevitably running late although announcements were made, they were indecipherable to us* but with the aid of other passengers, we made our way to the bus stop. Once aboard, we found a driver who didn't know the route at all and a DB lady conductor who was navigating with a map and small flashlight! A few route mistakes were made but we were taken care of, the lady conductor clearly didn't know the roads (why should she?) but I would say that was above and beyond the call of duty and we got back to our destination safely if a little late.

 

Years before, in Greece, my wife and I inadvertently boarded the wrong train and when we realised this, the conductor arranged for our train to stop outside the next station, he supervised us detraining onto the ballast, stayed with us while we then climbed up onto the next train pulling out of this station and conducted our new train back to our destination. Presumably, the other conductor also swapped trains and this was beneficial to both, I don't know.

Such actions would surely have been impossible on busier networks anywhere in the world but I think it shows that caring dedicated staff are THE essential part of any railway.

Cheers,

John.

 

* Neither of us speak much German but by asking politely, other people will help. It's the being polite thing that matters.