The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[brack]

Based on countries I've made more that half a dozen visits to including decent amounts of rail travel I'd say the Swiss network is miles ahead of the UK on all counts: stock, punctuality, frequency and reaching obscure places and valleys that would've been shut down pre Ww2 if in the UK. I think the Geneva - Bern - Zurich services were still running half hourly at midnight, their lowest frequency was hourly between 1am and 5am or something daft. Always plenty of seats, always on time. Can't comment on prices as I just buy a Swiss pass.

 

In Italy the high speed network is really quite good, although you do have to pre-book, and when you book you even get to pick your seats, although frequently I found that the coach layout depicted on the screen/terminal bore little resemblance to the actual coach you'd get - choose a pair of seats next to each other for you and your friend, then when you get on board they'd be aisle seats diagonally opposite on two 4 seat tables, facing apart. I did feel it was a bit cheaper than in the uk.

Local trains are slow, dirty and 40 years old, but absolutely dirt cheap. They also have an irritating gap in services around the middle of the day.

 

In Ireland and Northern Ireland things were pretty poor to be honest.

 

Haven't been on enough trains enough times in other countries to make a fair comment (although the only time I travelled on SNCF they managed to delay my train by 4 hours, so they sent me a refund/compensation voucher for 126 euros (fair enough), which could only be used in person at a SNCF station in france within the next 12 months. Completely useless, especially when I'd originally booked said tickets with SNCF's London office and they'd posted them out to me (and who confirmed to me they couldn't accept my voucher as they weren't a station in France).

[locoholic]

And yet the Bearded Wonder and friends have collected a stack of cash from their train set!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45854824

 

More ammunition for the other bearded wonder who leads Her Majesty's Opposition...

[brack]

And yet the Bearded Wonder and friends have collected a stack of cash from their train set!

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45854824

 

More ammunition for the other bearded wonder who leads Her Majesty's Opposition...

Perhaps had all those profits extracted from various franchises been available for reinvestment in infrastructure or rolling stock things might be significantly improved?

Our current system costs the public purse over 3 times what BR cost pre privatisation (adjusted for inflation).

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

And yet the Bearded Wonder and friends have collected a stack of cash from their train set!

 

More ammunition for the other bearded wonder who leads Her Majesty's Opposition...

 He's the wrong calibre to make use of the most plentiful ammunition supply afforded any oppo politician, since politicking began. ;-)

[BWsTrains]

I'm reading in "HST retirements and secondary deployments" with interest.

 

see: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/130227-hst-retirements-and-secondary-deployments/?p=3332118

 

and following posts, mourning the transfer of the HST to ScotRail. If what has come since is inferior in any significant respect, that is a very poor state of affairs indeed.

At this point I'll quietly exit stage left heading for the start of warmer weather in the antipodes and a chance to "play" steam trains again. Leaving you guys with the fondest memory of my visit,

 

 

Colin

Edited October 15, 2018 by BWsTrains

[Zomboid]

I recently used DB, and was decidedly underwhelmed. Trains were late and dirty, and pretty expensive. I wouldn't say it offered anything superior to the UK, other than their proper transport policy over the past few decades meant that all the journeys were undertaken on an electric train.

[The Stationmaster]

Perhaps had all those profits extracted from various franchises been available for reinvestment in infrastructure or rolling stock things might be significantly improved?

Our current system costs the public purse over 3 times what BR cost pre privatisation (adjusted for inflation).

 

All down to the way the franchise contract is worded.  Of course what that article seems to omit is how much the franchise has paid into Govt coffers in the period that Virgin/Stagecoach have got that money out of it.  Comparing it with the ECML situation is sort of apples and pears and as for Rachel Maskell's quoted comment I would have hoped that the transport spokesman of a major political party would actually know what she is talking about. (which would be a fascinating development in her case as she seems to only ever spout total nonsense).

[Pete the Elaner]

 

 

I was amazed to find Toilets flush direct to tracks! These trains doors open by lowering the windows and reaching outside! journey was marred by huge buffeting when trains passed (unsealed carriages). So no change since I used these trains in the mid 1970s. So hopes for our 3 generations to travel by modern ECML electric rail transport were dashed.

 

Also, I noted we crossed at least 1 Diamond crossing and several gated road crossings on what is the premier high speed UK train line. Safety??

 

Second Leg York Birmingham. Another IC 125 - this had been refit internally so was a better experience in seating comfort. At one stage we were up to 17 minutes late, then amazingly became "on time". Here is the secret to train punctuality - build in so much slack you're never late! (see trip 3 below).

 

TBH I cannot believe that the state of rail travel has advanced so slowly in the UK that these aging trains are still in such active use.

 

3/4th Legs Birmingham - Worcester and return, The best travel time of 39 min still felt like there was plenty of slack in the timetable. We were drawn up for about 5-7 min and still got in on time.

 

Our last UK journey was the most memorable - a day out at SVR, pulled by Britannia 70000 riding in a heritage teak coach, our grandchildren just loved it. Now that's travelling.

 

How does this compare with our other travels?

In Italy we've used rail since 1997. In those 20 years we've seen massive improvements, from dirty old IC trains, to Pendolino. to early and now latest release FrecciaRossa 1000 (top speed 400kph). We clocked up a lazy 300kph which I suspect is the track limit. Internal comfort and settings were excellent but there's scope for better track levelling, ride was notably inferior to Japan Shinkansen. we booked 700km of travel for 75Euro each in Business class.

 

 

Elsewhere on windy lines more like those in the UK, many advances in pneumatic tilt systems mean much better passenger experience than on pendulum types (as per the pendolino). see Super Akusa trains on The JREast Chuo line.

 

Britain is a country where rail travel ought to have the highest priority but somehow the plot has been lost and current rail experiences rank 2 or more notches below other nations' achievements. As someone proud of our railway heritage, I feel that is a very sad state of affairs.

 

Where did you hear that the ECML is the UK's 'Premier High Speed line'? From the NRM's hype about "the world's most famous locomotive" (which is isn't either. Both Rocket & Mallard have a better claim to this).

The WCML is as fast, significantly busier & has been modernised more recently.

HS1 should surely claim to be the UK's Premier High-Speed Line?

 

The biggest isue in the UK is its residents not wanting change. I hear lots of people state that "we don't need HS2" but should make better use of our Victorian railways, limited by their capacity. Even if the WCML (our busiest line) was straighter, you couldn't go much faster because slower services also use it & would get in the way. Maybe you could widen it from 4 to 6 lines, but that would not pass planning either.

An alternative would be to make more use of air travel, but it would cause a stir to even suggest this. You could always travel by road, but these have become heavily congested & any plans for a new motorway generate so much opposition that we have not seen a new one since the M6 Toll was completed 15 years ago.

& on the subject of air travel, how fast do commercial aircraft fly now? 650mph? We used to be able to fly at 1500mph but all the Concordes have now been retired. That's a step backwards in technology, but they were expensive.

 

With the possibility of new track difficult to get through, Britain has been stuck with having to make the most from its Victorian railways.

 

Pendolino uses electrical tilting which is Italian technology. Britain developed its own tilt tech at the same time but this was destroyed by politics. It was finally made to work properly but the final product has sat motionless at Crewe for 30 years. The technology survives inside Voyagers.

 

HSTs were ahead of their time when introduced in to 1970s & it is a credit to their design that they are still doing their original duties today. Time has caught up with them but this has not made them bad, but just rather less remarkable than they once were.

 

I have limited experience of train travel abroad; only Poland & Thailand in the last few years.

Poland used multiple units which would have looked at home with the electric locos used on the Woodhead route. We even travelled between 2 stations with the automatic doors accidentally wide open. This was in 2013 when a faulty door lock would have stopped the train the UK.

Long distance travel was slow too, being about twice as slow as a similar UK service. This was on a Sunday too. Weekday services were slower which did not make much sense to me.

 

Thailand was different again. Their overnight sleeper was bumpy & can't have gone much faster than 50mph. Passengers were getting off & walking straight across the front of the train. This was the accepted practise.

Their airport link used Siemens Desiro units, introduced a few years after our mechanically identical class 360s appeared over here. 

 

I am also told that if you miss a train in Calais, you could have several hours to wait. Could you imagine that in Dover?

[olivegreen]

It is very interesting to read this thread but I find it sad that the significant differences between rail travel in Europe in general (rather than just in the UK, which is what the OP writes of) and rail travel in, say, Australia, the USA and New Zealand, are being lost in the arguments about detail. 

 

I will generalise a little: in Europe, rail is heavily used for essential day-to-day travel, not just in, around and between urban areas but also throughout the whole extent of the countries concerned as well as for tourist travel 'for leisure', as one might call it. I know more about New Zealand than the other two countries mentioned above but would suggest that in all three (and doubtless many others, too) urban rail travel is well used (albeit in NZ only in the rather limited Auckland and Wellington suburban areas), whilst inter-urban and long distance rail travel is pretty much limited, as has been said, to leisure travel only. (OK, some parts of the USA might claim exception to this generalisation...). 

 

I fear apples are being compared with oranges.

[rockershovel]

Speaking from experience of seeing the country in snap-shots over a period of at least twenty years, I can only say that the long-term effects of sacrificing everything to short-term profit are increasingly obvious.

 

German trains have a sort of “cobblers children have no shoes” problem. The German government like employment, like to sustain their manufacturing base but don’t really care about railways, per se. After all, they aren’t connected to the Eurostar network in any useful fashion, and have the political leverage to make sure they build the trains for everyone else.

 

Railways in any FSU country are about what you’d expect.

[BWsTrains]

Where did you hear that the ECML is the UK's 'Premier High Speed line'?

Wikipedia quotes:

 

With most of the line rated for 125 mph (200 km/h) operation, the ECML was the fastest main line in the UK until the opening of High Speed 1. These relatively high speeds are possible because much of the ECML travels on fairly straight track on the flatter, eastern regions of England

 

By contrast, the West Coast Main Line has to traverse the Trent Valley and the mountains of Cumbria, leading to many more curves and a lower general speed limit of 110 mph (180 km/h).

 

Matter of definition I guess

 

But I do accept that all I ever do see running on the WCML are Penolino (or is that Pendolini?) whereas HST is still clearly in use on ECML. It would have been good if I could have experienced a ride in modern stock during my journey up to York.

[Pete the Elaner]

Wikipedia is a collection of information from the general public.

While most information on it is useful, none should be considered to be definitive.

 

Having played English billiards in the past (& having qualified as a referee), I read the wiki page on English billiards a while back & there were factual errors with the rules on there, which have now been corrected.

There still is a factual error regarding the table but correcting it would be pedantic.

 

Voyagers are quite common on the WCML & other units also run some of the shorter & medium distance journeys, but I agree with the point you were trying to make; that all the older stuff like class 87s with Mk3s have been replaced.

[Zomboid]

It would have been good if I could have experienced a ride in modern stock during my journey up to York.

Could have done it in a 180 on GC. Though that would probably only serve to show the superiority of a HST.

 

Or a 222/ Voyager combo from St Pancras...

[Ken.W]

First Leg London York  (late Sept) - not a great start, 5 of us had 1st Class reservations but the Departures Board announced that all Reservations were cancelled for this trip. Existing train was swapped out to a 40+ YO IC 125 in what must have been close to its original fit out. (East Midlands)

When I looked up our coach (41064 FO) I found it was an aging Mark 3 (HST) and that exact coach had been modelled by Hornby! see R4213.

 

I was amazed to find Toilets flush direct to tracks! These trains doors open by lowering the windows and reaching outside! journey was marred by huge buffeting when trains passed (unsealed carriages). So no change since I used these trains in the mid 1970s. So hopes for our 3 generations to travel by modern ECML electric rail transport were dashed.

 

Also, I noted we crossed at least 1 Diamond crossing and several gated road crossings on what is the premier high speed UK train line. Safety??

 

It seems you were rather unfortunate in your experiance of the ECML.

The HST set you describe is an ex-EMT set which was loaned and later transfered to East Coast as a result of the combination of increased services, and loss of two Mk4 (electric) sets to accidents. As such it still retains it's near original interior, but this is the only East Coast set to do so. All the other HST sets on the East Coast have been refurbished to the same standard as the Mk4 electric sets had been, so there's little difference in travelling in either. The refurbished sets are of a good interior standard that compares well with any other stock in service and the HSTs are actually still more reliable than the elecrics.

This ex-EMT set is also usually kept to particular Hull or Leeds workings, so it's use and lack of reservations suggest a last minute set swap due to a fault or delayed arrival on the booked set. When set swaps occure, effort is usually made to still book the reservations as far as posssible, but not if this would delay the train, and it's also more difficult with this set as it's capacity and interior arrangement doesn't match that of any other sets.

 

As to dashing your hopes for travel by 'modern East Coast electric rail transport', which are you refering to here? The existing Mk4 stock dates from 1989, almost as old as the HSTs (the last of which were built '82) and the interiors virtually the same as the EC HSTs. If you meant the IETs, both the HSTs and Mk4s are due to be replaced by class 800 IETs, but they're not scheduled to be in service on the East Coast yet, and if you read reports of their comfort etc on the class 800 thread you may be glad you did miss them.

 

As to your other points, toilets flushing onto the track would be standard just about anywhere for the age of these trains, but retention tanks have been standard on new stock for quite some time now (including the Mk4s).

Slam doors again were standard the at the time the HSTs were built, and having to use the outside handle to open them's a safety requirement to make them harder to open, particularly accidentally, when the train's moving. They're now also fitted with central locking to prevent this.

Both these features however, are due to be banned on all stock still in service from the end of next year.

 

There was a diamond crossing? I presume you mean the flat crossing at Newark. From a safety perspective, in principle this is no different to any other junction where a conflicting move could occure, so why should it be a particular safety concern?

The only gated crossings on the route are a couple of very minor and scarcely used country lanes, and a few occupation/accomodation crossings for private access - mostly farms.

 

It seems unfortunate you took such generalisations over a single unfortunate experiance

Edited October 22, 2018 by Ken.W

[jjb1970]

On Mk.3 doors I have seen a few people who needed to be helped as they couldn't figure out how to open the door and who were frantically looking for the button to make it work. I remember the first time I saw it I found it highly amusing then I sort of realised that the idea of leaning out of a window to use an outside door handle is a rather dated idea to say the least and for people who don't travel on trains very often it must be one of those things you just wouldn't think of doing (I'm struggling to think of anything else where you hang out of a window to use an outside door handle). Especially when power operated doors have been the norm on so many trains for so long now.

[Zomboid]

Though there is plenty of signage around the doors to help with that. (Though I realise that once something is not intuitive and under the time pressure of having to get off a train at a station stop - quite possibly with a queue of people behind, looking for the instructions might not be the first thing that comes to mind)

[Reorte]

I can sort of understand people struggling who are used to trains which open doors with a button but it does smack of "a door with hinges and a handle is far too complicated for people these days, how old fashioned" which I find plain daft (can understand TOCs preferring doors where they can close them all with one button push and get the train under way).

[APOLLO]

On Mk.3 doors I have seen a few people who needed to be helped as they couldn't figure out how to open the door and who were frantically looking for the button to make it work. I remember the first time I saw it I found it highly amusing then I sort of realised that the idea of leaning out of a window to use an outside door handle is a rather dated idea to say the least and for people who don't travel on trains very often it must be one of those things you just wouldn't think of doing (I'm struggling to think of anything else where you hang out of a window to use an outside door handle). Especially when power operated doors have been the norm on so many trains for so long now.

 

It's a good job they don't have to lift a leather straf off its hook and then lower the window - that would flummox them !!!!!!

 

Brit15

[Mark Saunders]

I can sort of understand people struggling who are used to trains which open doors with a button but it does smack of "a door with hinges and a handle is far too complicated for people these days, how old fashioned" which I find plain daft (can understand TOCs preferring doors where they can close them all with one button push and get the train under way).

If they do manage to open them most can’t close them again but manage to do so on their house and car!

 

No wonder that many HST formed trains lose so much time as someone has to go and close them!

 

Mark Saunders

 

edit for not reading my spelling

Edited October 22, 2018 by Mark Saunders

[Reorte]

If they do manage to open them most can’t close them again but manage to do so on their house and car!

 

No wonder that many HST formed trains loose so much time as someone has to go and close them!

Always seemed a mixed bag on whether people would shut them or not from what I remember as a kid when they were still reasonably common.

 

People may manage their house and car but I frequently end up getting up to push the door shut in my local.

[Mark Saunders]

Always seemed a mixed bag on whether people would shut them or not from what I remember as a kid when they were still reasonably common.

 

People may manage their house and car but I frequently end up getting up to push the door shut in my local.

 

That's the attitude of some that someone else will do it!

[Jub45565]

In a nutshell: You're about a year too early. There are hundreds of new trains being delivered at present, some in service some being tested ready for service.

Shame that the new ones (presuming that they're the same spec as those GWR have bought) are worse than the 40+ year old HSTs they are replacing, in terms of passenger comfort and convenience which are those being discussed here.

[BWsTrains]

Haven't been back here for a while and it's clear from feedback that in some respects we're were unlucky to get such old coach stock for our run. Also I'd not appreciated that the new 800s were not yet delivered onto ECML (must have been mixing up with GWR).

 

One interesting theme that comes up time and again in feedback is the relative comfort of the old HSTs vs newer stock.

 

Is it only me? Doesn't anyone else find the experience of an intense air pressure shock wave whenever 2 trains pass or a tunnel is entered something totally unacceptable in this day and age? This is an integral part of the comfort equation in my book.

 

Sitting on the "inside" i.e. nearest the opposite line I almost jumped out of my skin on one occasion. I was rear facing so didn't anticipate the oncoming train (remember all our reservations had been nixed for that leg). It greatly amused the grandchildren though.

 

I did note this in my first post and haven't seen a single response, perhaps this is considered acceptable in the UK?

 

All the other countries where I've travelled on modern intercity trains, their stock is airtight (enough) to prevent at least the majority of this buffeting effect. 2 Shinkansen at speed (~600km aggregate speed) barely cause a flutter when passing, similarly the Frecciarossa performs very well.

 

Colin

 

 

 

[Reorte]

Is it only me? Doesn't anyone else find the experience of an intense air pressure shock wave whenever 2 trains pass or a tunnel is entered something totally unacceptable in this day and age? This is an integral part of the comfort equation in my book.

 

Sitting on the "inside" i.e. nearest the opposite line I almost jumped out of my skin on one occasion. I was rear facing so didn't anticipate the oncoming train (remember all our reservations had been nixed for that leg). It greatly amused the grandchildren though.

It's noticeable but I've never felt it severe enough or uncomfortable enough to be bothered about it in the slightest, certainly not enough to label it as something that needs sorting, let along unacceptable. The one time I've felt "that was a bit much" I was on a Pacer.

All the other countries where I've travelled on modern intercity trains, their stock is airtight (enough) to prevent at least the majority of this buffeting effect. 2 Shinkansen at speed (~600km aggregate speed) barely cause a flutter when passing, similarly the Frecciarossa performs very well.

At those speeds more needs to be done because the shock might well get dangerous. I don't think it's anything to do with how sealed the carriages are but simply the impact of a column of air being pushed down a tunnel by a fast train hitting another train, although different trains will respond differently to how they're being hit. Presumably tunnels designed for high speed trains have more space so a train moving in one is less like a cylinder in a piston, and possibly other pressure relief mechanisms.

['CHARD]

 

 

Is it only me? Doesn't anyone else find the experience of an intense air pressure shock wave whenever 2 trains pass or a tunnel is entered something totally unacceptable in this day and age? This is an integral part of the comfort equation in my book.

 

Sitting on the "inside" i.e. nearest the opposite line I almost jumped out of my skin on one occasion. I was rear facing so didn't anticipate the oncoming train (remember all our reservations had been nixed for that leg). It greatly amused the grandchildren though.

 

I did note this in my first post and haven't seen a single response, perhaps this is considered acceptable in the UK?

 

All the other countries where I've travelled on modern intercity trains, their stock is airtight (enough) to prevent at least the majority of this buffeting effect. 2 Shinkansen at speed (~600km aggregate speed) barely cause a flutter when passing, similarly the Frecciarossa performs very well.

 

Colin

 

I believe that this is a side-effect of our comparatively restricted loading gauge in the UK.  It's simply far less generous than Berne gauge and UIC structural gauge, thus there is nowhere/ less space for the pressurised air to go, during the piston effect experienced when two trains meet.

 

The effect is nothing to do with air-tightness of the stock itself; if that were a problem then all manner of tornado-like draughts would be evident at all times 

 

 

EDIT: What Reorte said!

Edited October 22, 2018 by 'CHARD