The State of UK Rail - some personal experiences

[The Stationmaster]

I tend to think that the reason why passengers aren't told things is that nobody knows. In those times control will be earning their money and flying by the seat of their pants to some degree. I imagine decisions are made and implemented very rapidly, so nobody knows when the next train to xyz is until it's actually about to go.

 

I've never been there, I just can't imagine anyone is withholding information.

 

In effect you are spot on although I don't think it always works quite like thats as it's a bit like the old tale about alligators when you are trying to drain the swamp.  in other words if you are so busy trying to sort the problem the last thing you might think about is telling others what you are planning.  And that's one reason why I'm a firm believer than anything later than what is happening right now (i.e. on this shift and possibly the next)should not be dealt with in control offices.   But even in the current situation Control might - as you say - be trying to hit a moving target and can't say anything because they simply don't know what to say.

 

That is why I much prefer to here such things as 'due to a derailment/signalling problem/incident at XYZ trains are subject to delay or cancellation' (ideally qualified by how long that might apply for).  You can then plan for the alternatives - assuming there are any - but you need clued up staff on the spot to help passengers do that.  so for example last year when trying (and failing) to get to taunton at the time of a major signalling hiccup on the GWML I found myself assisting Reading station staff in telling passengers how to get to XY or Z by various ways of avoiding the trouble (and finding out that many station staff at reading had less idea of railway geography than our cat - simply because they had not been trained to have that knowledge).  and one reason why staff disappear at such times is because they lack the knowledge/confidence to deal with such issues - again a training gap. 

[Coryton]

Finally I agree absolutely about information during disruption; IMHO when it all works as planned there is no better way to travel than by train, but when it goes wrong passengers need and deserve accurate updates, and as an ex-rail worker this is something that annoys be, given that we live in an age when communication has never been easier.

 

Indeed - it is of course easy to run a railway from an armchair but I find it amazing how poor information can be when we have such good communications nowadays.

 

I tend to think that the reason why passengers aren't told things is that nobody knows. In those times control will be earning their money and flying by the seat of their pants to some degree. I imagine decisions are made and implemented very rapidly, so nobody knows when the next train to xyz is until it's actually about to go.

 

I've never been there, I just can't imagine anyone is withholding information.

 

Having worked in Control for twenty years, I think you've summed it up very nicely. 

 

I'm sure that's the case some of the time, but there have been many times when communication just wasn't there and it should have been. 

 

For example, on a day with strong winds I was due to get a train in the evening on the ECML. On the web all day it was saying that there was a risk of disruption but trains were running. I go to the station for my train to find a sign had been up all day saying that passengers were advised not to travel and would be left to fend for themselves if trains were terminated short of the destination. Why different information on the web and at the station? This was not a rapidly changing bit of information - it had been the case all day.

 

Or the number of times I've been approaching a station where a train should continue to be told just before arrival that we have to jump off and get on a replacement train, which is already there and waiting. So somebody knew much earlier on that we were all going to be thrown out....so why not give people more warning?

 

Or another one - train approaching a station is crawling along for some reason. The automated departure board at the station assumes it's travelling at normal speed and calculates an ever-changing departure time, insisting it's going to be the next train for half an hour, during which time several other trains appear and leave first. So rather than sitting in the waiting room everyone is in the cold on the platform. The platform staff knew exactly what was happening, but chose not to tell passengers. Why? I don't know.

 

I do realise that none of this is simple, but I think the railway still has a long way to go in communicating with passengers and it can't always be explained by saying that decisions haven't been made.

 

I think a major (and understandable) failing is of staff not wanting to make an announcement when they don't know what's happening. But actually an announcement confirming that the train that just vanished from the screen didn't in fact leave from another platform, and they're trying to find out where it has got to, is very useful. Now it's human nature to try to find out what's going on first before saying anything...but surely this is the sort of thing that training is for? The right thing isn't always the obvious one.

 

When I was commuting it was noticeable that station staff would 'disappear' when there was disruption and passengers would be left to fend for themselves.

 

Ah yes. Once i was on a train turned back from the Severn Tunnel. No information whatsoever was given on what arrangements were being made for people to continue their journey. The guard and trolley assistant barricaded themselves in the rear cab, refused to open the door and when a passenger opened it they slammed it shut. If they didn't know what was happening, they could have said so. For some reason a lot of staff seem to be happy to say "I don't know" in person to passengers but not over a PA system. (When we got to Bristol, taxis were laid on for all...no problem with that....but we had to wait until we got there to find that out).

 

One thing that I think does work well is to give platform staff access to a Twitter account to give on-the-ground information, such as after a line has been blocked saying when they've seen the first train come through - much more reliable and useful than trying to work out what's happening from live departure boards and the like. 

[caradoc]

I tend to think that the reason why passengers aren't told things is that nobody knows. In those times control will be earning their money and flying by the seat of their pants to some degree. I imagine decisions are made and implemented very rapidly, so nobody knows when the next train to xyz is until it's actually about to go.

 

I've never been there, I just can't imagine anyone is withholding information.

 

Having worked in Control myself for 30 years I agree, but I think more could be done to give passengers better information. At the very least, when it is not known how long an incident will last, tell people that, and why; For example at a bridge strike, state that staff have to get to site to inspect the bridge and only when this has been done will it be known if trains can run or not.

 

Another (sad) example is fatalities: Some years ago the officially authorised advice to passengers was 'Person struck by a train at xxx'. Then it was changed to 'Emergency Services dealing with an incident', the reason being that the first message led to members of the public heading to xxx to see what they could see. It was then recognised that the second message was too vague so it was altered again to 'Person struck by a train between xxx and yyy', thus giving more information while not stating the location. It is noticeable however that some Train Operators still use Message 2 while others have adopted Message 3. Personally I would go further and add to Message 3 that the Emergency Services are in charge of the site and therefore no trains can run until their vital work is completed.

 

A change I have noticed recently on LNWR services out of Euston is that where departures are significantly delayed they are removing a lot of stops and for example running semi-fast services as first stop milton keynes. This is a change and they seem to be announcing it very late, I have seen two instances where the guard announced it at the last minute and people have had to disembark, taking trains from full to very lightly loaded and crush loading the following departure to a silly extent. I am sure there are reasons for it but it is very annoying.

 

'Skip-stopping' as it is known is a recognised means of getting trains back on time, and not surprisingly generates a lot of adverse comment. During my time in Control it was regularly resorted too, mainly where one train running late would cause reactionary delays out of all proportion to the original incident, however the decision to remove stops should be taken as early as possible and certainly before the train is boarded at origin, to avoid the kind of situation you describe (which can actually lead to more delay as passengers detrain). 

 

Rockershovel also makes a valid point about there being no XC staff at Birmingham New St to deal with their passengers during disruption; Given that New St is without doubt their single most important hub that really is unacceptable. 

[Hobby]

Sorry but no it isn't. NR run the station with Virgin and on the day he constanrmtly refers to they were both fully aware of the issues in the SW and could have given advice. There is no need for xc to have staff at stations when the ones from other companies have the same info as xc. Other major stations are Bristol and Reading not to mention Derby. You have to assume that the other TOCs and NR will do the job they are paid to do and not have to duplicate them. Otherwise where do you draw the line.

[ardbealach]

Recently on a Euston-Holyhead Voyager I noticed that the coach screen display showing the stations being served en-route included 'Bangor Gwynedd'.  I am not aware of any other station on BR with the name Bangor, so I presume the 'Gwynedd' has been added to avoid the confusion with Bangor County Down, and passengers possibly alighting before they have crossed the Irish Sea? (AM)

[Coryton]

Sorry but no it isn't. NR run the station with Virgin and on the day he constanrmtly refers to they were both fully aware of the issues in the SW and could have given advice. There is no need for xc to have staff at stations when the ones from other companies have the same info as xc. Other major stations are Bristol and Reading not to mention Derby. You have to assume that the other TOCs and NR will do the job they are paid to do and not have to duplicate them. Otherwise where do you draw the line.

 

Maybe things are better now but I in the past I have had staff rudely refuse to help me because I asked them for information while attempting to travel with a different TOC to the one they worked for.

[Hobby]

The staff on the platforms who provide customer service are in the main NR staff so that shouldn't happen. They are the ones you'll see with tablets which gives them up to date info including the whereabouts of the trains. Hope that helps.

[rockershovel]

Sorry but no it isn't. NR run the station with Virgin and on the day he constanrmtly refers to they were both fully aware of the issues in the SW and could have given advice. There is no need for xc to have staff at stations when the ones from other companies have the same info as xc. Other major stations are Bristol and Reading not to mention Derby. You have to assume that the other TOCs and NR will do the job they are paid to do and not have to duplicate them. Otherwise where do you draw the line.

I was at BNS that day and it was quite obvious that Virgin were receiving no useful information whatsoever from XC. Nor was their website of the slightest use. The same situation was repeated at Bristol and Taunton, where XC announcements ranged from the useless to the fatuous, and GWR staff were clearly not expecting another XC train, let alone one carrying pretty much, two trains worth of passengers.

 

I worked out my onward connection by asking the train dispatchers on the platforms.

 

It’s like their frequent short-formed trains. If I could see on their website, that such-and-such a train was short formed, packed and with reservations suspended, I’d arrange to catch a different one; but when you have the choice of joining such a service, or spending another hour of Plymouth station (a place with few charms to recommend it) and no idea what the NEXT train is like; Hobson’s choice, much?

 

Word games about the letter of their contract, simply aren’t the point. XC clearly don’t care at all about customer service, and they couldn’t make it plainer.

Edited November 5, 2018 by rockershovel

[Hobby]

"Wordgames"?! That's a bit rich coming from you!

 

I am not going to reply as it seems every time I try to clarify things you twist my words. My reply was to him not you. Goodbye RS.

[rockershovel]

"Wordgames"?! That's a bit rich coming from you!

 

I am not going to reply as it seems every time I try to clarify things you twist my words. My reply was to him not you. Goodbye RS.

We are making different, and I think, opposed points.

 

MY point is that I have no interest whatsoever in the details of the contractual structure, I simply observe (as a paying customer) that the delivery at point-of-service is chronically dysfunctionsl and does nothing to justify the existence of that structure. I recently drove 600 miles in 36 hours, because I simply couldn’t face another dose of of travelling by XC. That’s no recommendation at all.

 

What’s YOUR point?

[caradoc]

Sorry but no it isn't. NR run the station with Virgin and on the day he constanrmtly refers to they were both fully aware of the issues in the SW and could have given advice. There is no need for xc to have staff at stations when the ones from other companies have the same info as xc. Other major stations are Bristol and Reading not to mention Derby. You have to assume that the other TOCs and NR will do the job they are paid to do and not have to duplicate them. Otherwise where do you draw the line.

 

I agree regarding the stations other than New St, but as I said before it is without doubt the key hub of the entire XC network, so not having staff there is for me a major omission. Perhaps the 'line should be drawn' based on the level of service provided, which at New St for XC is what, at least 12 departures each hour (compared to Virgin's 4 !) ?

[caradoc]

I should add that franchising history must have had a major effect on staffing at places such as New St, given that at one time XC was part of the Virgin empire but is not now

[royaloak]

The railways are fine. It's just certain people involved in them that's the problem. Not the workers, but the unions and upper management. They both need a good slap. Especially the unions who are trying to politicise the dispute rather than thinking about workers rights to be able to get to/and from work.

Not that the DFT have anything to do with any of these disputes have they, oh no its all the nasty rail unions and militant staff isnt it!

 

Did you not hear about Wilkinsons Croydon speech where he stated he was gearing up for a fight with the Unions and if the staff didnt like it they could get the hell out of his industry, this from a bloke who we pay to commute from his home in Vienna!

Edited November 5, 2018 by royaloak

[Zomboid]

A dispute needs both sides to take part.

 

Though the current meltdown is driven entirely by the DfT. As an SWR user (a lot less at weekends lately, I'd sooner have a few work from home days...) it's hugely frustrating, but what else did they expect?

[BWsTrains]

As OP I look back in here occasionally even though there's nothing to add to my original thoughts WRT the UK. It interests me to see where the "debate" has meandered since, 113 posts and 4300+ views later (in only 25 days!)

 

What is satisfying is the steady trickle of new likes etc to my OP which suggests it did strike a chord of some sort.

Whether you agree with my personal views or not, it seems to me that the British public would benefit from a coordinated rebellion against accepting the "it's the best we can do with what we've got" approach that I hear coming thru time and again, be it WRT road or rail services.

 

Coming from Melbourne I've experienced exactly the same culture for most of the 40+ years we've lived here and it's only in the last few that some excellent initiatives have improved our local tram and bus services to a level that we never drive into the city. Good stock, regular and interactive timetables (viewable via smartphone app), well thought out bus lanes on freeways and arterial routes mean we can cover the 20+km in around 30 min 7 days a week. Elsewhere a concerted effort to improve suburban rail is starting (slowly) to bear fruit. I never thought I'd see it but significant change is possible, it requires management with vision not excuses.

 

Colin

 

         

[jjb1970]

The problem with these sort of discussions is it invariable gravitates to the extremes of good and bad, when in reality it is not that simple. I am possibly lucky, but there are over 200 trains a day from Milton Keynes to London, fast trains do the 70 odd Km in a touch over half an hour, trains are kept clean and in good condition and both TOCs (Virgin and LNWR) have excellent connectivity via online services, onboard wi-fi etc. The service keeps operating in the quiet hours (albeit with much reduced frequency) but up to about midnight the service level remains surprisingly good. Reliability is very good (although it has its moments). Yes, there are things I'd criticise, but if looked at as a way of moving huge numbers of people in/out of London quickly and efficiently it is a superb service, certainly there are very, very few other equivalent services I've seen anywhere else that I'd rate as being any better in fulfilling it's primary purpose. I can just turn up at the station at any time of day between about 5am and midnight and never have to wait more than a few minutes for a train, that's not bad.

[Coryton]

As OP I look back in here occasionally even though there's nothing to add to my original thoughts WRT the UK. It interests me to see where the "debate" has meandered since, 113 posts and 4300+ views later (in only 25 days!)

 

What is satisfying is the steady trickle of new likes etc to my OP which suggests it did strike a chord of some sort.

Whether you agree with my personal views or not, it seems to me that the British public would benefit from a coordinated rebellion against accepting the "it's the best we can do with what we've got" approach that I hear coming thru time and again, be it WRT road or rail services.

 

Coming from Melbourne I've experienced exactly the same culture for most of the 40+ years we've lived here and it's only in the last few that some excellent initiatives have improved our local tram and bus services to a level that we never drive into the city. Good stock, regular and interactive timetables (viewable via smartphone app), well thought out bus lanes on freeways and arterial routes mean we can cover the 20+km in around 30 min 7 days a week. Elsewhere a concerted effort to improve suburban rail is starting (slowly) to bear fruit. I never thought I'd see it but significant change is possible, it requires management with vision not excuses.

 

Colin

 

OK, I'll bite.

 

Only three "agrees" in there (and one funny). To me that doesn't suggest widespread agreement, and if RMweb still had a disagree button I think there'd be more than three on there.

 

Speaking as someone who travels extensively by rail in the UK and has travelled widely overseas, including the countries you mention (and in Melbourne, for that matter) I strongly disagree to the statement: "current rail experiences rank 2 or more notches below other nations' achievements" if it is intended to apply to the UK as a whole rather than just the four journeys you went on.

 

You compare the UK unfavourably to Japan and Italy. I think our railways probably don't compare so well with Japan (or Switzerland) but their systems are far from the norm. As for Italy, I think it depends what progress you want to see. If you consider a move to shiny high speed trains which are treated as planes on wheels, where you need a reservation and have to book well ahead of the journey to get a decent fare as progress, then yes the UK is far behind. Personally I prefer a system where trains aren't quite so fast but I can turn up to a station and travel at no notice to any other station at a price (for one person) comparable or less than the marginal cost of driving (peak trains to/from London aside), and where I can plan my travel round my day rather than the other way round. On the other hand if I am willing and able to plan my travel to the train well in advance, I can often get a very good fare.

 

I'm curious about your comments regarding the Pendolino's (product of the Italian railways you admire so much). In what way are the Japanese tilting trains superior? Despite the name, the UK Pendolinos don't use passive tilt. 

 

I'm not going to read through the whole thread again but I don't recall a general view of refusing to accept that anything could be better in the UK. While I disagree with your views, if you look at my other posts you will see I am often critical of railways in the UK and I expect that's true of most of the other posters disagreeing with you. But that's not the same as saying that everything is much better in other countries (though that is generally the mainstream media view in the UK and is probably a popular one with the UK population in general).

 

I could list all the deficiencies I saw this summer while travelling round Europe by rail including toilets which flush directly onto the track so you can see it whizzing past underneath the bowl, trains with failed air conditioning and no opening windows, trains with no reservations and people being chucked out of seats, cancellations, delays of over an hour etc. etc. but I think I've said enough.

[rockershovel]

Interesting comment, regarding “trains treated as planes” which seems to be quite an accurate description of Virgin’s overall approach, along with the previous ECML franchise and no doubt, others.

 

The practice of selling a ticket for a specific route or journey, with no other responsibility implied or accepted, seems to be common on secondary services (it was the crux of the problems I alluded to earlier from Hartlepool) - to which it seems fundamentally unsuited. Trains aren’t RyanAir.

 

This is the core of the problem - the franchising / contracting system isn’t suited to the operation of a system which has strong historic elements of “turn up and travel” and was originally designed to operate in that manner.

[The Stationmaster]

The staff on the platforms who provide customer service are in the main NR staff so that shouldn't happen. They are the ones you'll see with tablets which gives them up to date info including the whereabouts of the trains. Hope that helps.

 

Surely they are only NR staff at NR managed stations.  At TOC managed stations they will be that TOC's staff.  Or has it all changed, again.........?

[Coryton]

Interesting comment, regarding “trains treated as planes” which seems to be quite an accurate description of Virgin’s overall approach, along with the previous ECML franchise and no doubt, others.

 

The practice of selling a ticket for a specific route or journey, with no other responsibility implied or accepted, seems to be common on secondary services (it was the crux of the problems I alluded to earlier from Hartlepool) - to which it seems fundamentally unsuited. Trains aren’t RyanAir.

 

This is the core of the problem - the franchising / contracting system isn’t suited to the operation of a system which has strong historic elements of “turn up and travel” and was originally designed to operate in that manner.

 

I would disagree.

 

The franchising system was set up to preserve the system of being able to turn up and buy a ticket valid for all operators, and to a large extent has succeeded in doing so.

 

Regulation of ticket prices has prevented operators from pushing off-peak walk-up tickets to levels where few people can afford them, at least for non-business travel.

 

What has happened is a large expansion of the times at which such tickets aren't valid, and big increases in the costs of peak tickets especially to London.

Now nobody can say for sure if this wouldn't have happened under BR, but under the same pressure from the government to increase revenue while limiting increases to off-peak fares I would be surprised if it wasn't the case.

 

Personally I think that setting up a system which preserved so much of the turn-up-and-go and interavailability of tickets under British Rail, and which even planned against at least one loophole that operators were likely to exploit* was a real achievement.

 

I believe that even open access operators have to accept any-operator tickets, and I think that their own-operator tickets can be purchased from any ticket office, unlike some countries where you have to buy on-line or from a convenience store in the station.

 

* So far as I know, the dominant operator on a route can't set their own standard class walk-up tickets at a lower price than the interavailable one - setting it just a little bit lower would be a tempting prospect, I would have thought.

[rob D2]

125 ! Lucky you !

These 800s are very stylish but the seats were designed by a torturer . One step forward , two back

[Coryton]

125 ! Lucky you !

These 800s are very stylish but the seats were designed by a torturer . One step forward , two back

 

This is something quite subjective, I think.

 

I found them hard at first.

 

Maybe they have softened up...maybe I have got used to them...either way they seem fine to me now.

 

(I might feel differently for a more than 2 hour journey though).

 

I will miss the HSTs but think the 800s are a far better travelling environment than the GWR HSTs.

[PaulCheffus]

I was amazed to find Toilets flush direct to tracks! 

Hi

 

No different to some of the Italian trains I traveled on 2016. In fact you could actually see the track out of the bottom of the toilet.

 

Cheers

Paul

[Mike Storey]

Interesting comment, regarding “trains treated as planes” which seems to be quite an accurate description of Virgin’s overall approach, along with the previous ECML franchise and no doubt, others.

 

The practice of selling a ticket for a specific route or journey, with no other responsibility implied or accepted, seems to be common on secondary services (it was the crux of the problems I alluded to earlier from Hartlepool) - to which it seems fundamentally unsuited. Trains aren’t RyanAir.

 

This is the core of the problem - the franchising / contracting system isn’t suited to the operation of a system which has strong historic elements of “turn up and travel” and was originally designed to operate in that manner.

 

Very little to do with privatisation and franchising. BR started the idea of cheap, advanced bookings, with the Inter-City Savers and similar, in the 1970's. The BR Intercity business sector then took it further in the 1980's with "revenue management" based pricing (based on airline practice - fuselage P&L) and recruited an ex-airline wizard to master-mind it all. Such advance purchase tickets were never inter-changeable to other services (other than in major disruption) and were the source of exactly the same frustrations as today.

 

As for the idea that railways were originally designed to operate in the manner of "turn up and go", I think you will find that almost all railway historians will disagree with you, prior to 1947 and for long distance travel anyway. The fact that the requirement to reserve on such services declined during the 1960's and 1970's, was a reflection of the fact that very few trains were regularly full anymore (other than peak commuter services and certain other popular individual trains). The increased requirement to book in advance has been a reflection of increased demand, but originated in BR's (quite successful and unique to European railways at the time) drive to fill trains up again.

[Mike Storey]

Surely they are only NR staff at NR managed stations.  At TOC managed stations they will be that TOC's staff.  Or has it all changed, again.........?

 

Yes, I found that comment strange but declined to challenge it in case things had changed.

 

But in my time managing 8 of Railtrack's 15 "Major Stations" (at the time - there are more run directly by NR now, at the request of TOC's), and Brum New Street was in my purview, our staff were only there for security, safety and maintenance/repair, car parking, deliveries, and often the station-wide information system and announcements - we were just the landlord. The TOCs did not want us anywhere near "their" passengers, until it all went t1ts up and they needed our help. The only staff with train info (other than what was available via the public indicators) and the ability to make decisions about changes, alternatives and using other TOCs' services, were the staff provided by TOC's. Cross Country had a very large presence at New Street in those days (late 1990's).

Edited November 6, 2018 by Mike Storey