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EMGS commissions Peco for RTR EM Gauge bullhead track/turnouts

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HI Jim,

 

The way most shops work out the postage is an average cost of posting things. So for example you may send one parcel that costs £3.00 and one £4.50 but you charge both at £4.00. The extra from the £3.00 goes to cover the extra on the £4.50 one.

 

The amount of parcels hattons will send in a day will mean that the postage should equal out including the cost of the packing materials.

 

When your sending as many parcels as Hattons does in a day then the postage cost will balance out. Plus im sure they will have an account which can also provide cheaper rates.

 

Just to clarify, the track is made in yard lengths and that how it is being sold for UK members. For over seas members is still being looked at and they can contact the Trade officer to discuss.

 

If any body wishes to have track made in shorter lengths then please apporach Peco with a 5 figure sum of money and im sure they will make you some.

 

Thanks

Simon

 

 

Simon

 

The economics are also different for large businesses, as you say there are cross subsidies, plus discount on postage costs due to volumes and likewise packing costs are far less. All tings small retailers and societies cannot do

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Jim, I'm not trying to find negatives, I'm trying to offer positive suggestions to make it easier and cheaper for the EMGS, its membership and (most importantly IMHO) whoever is going to actually do the postage for them. Taking PECO manufactured product and then cutting it down would be really dumb in that light, but setting up with PECO to start from scratch from a different place shouldn't be difficult, but the only reason not to do that which seems to have been offered is 'its always done like this' and I'm simply challenging that assertion.

 

I DON'T accept the argument that PECO's machines can only cut 1m, they do all sorts of lengths, and I'm pretty sure its with done with one machine (or maybe a few similar for capacity reasons) how else would you make the shorter settrack pieces, not just the straights, but the different lengths for inner and outer rails on curves. Is there a 'how do they make that? ' program on making (commercial) model railway track? I assume that the rail all arrives at PECO on a big drum and they both straighten it out and shear it to length internally, unlike C&L who DO get a pack of thousands of 1m lengths (but presumably because Phil asks for that) .

 

Jon

 

Cutting the rail is indeed not the issue. The rail (technically a wire) is supplied to Peco in very long lengths (as reels).

 

The issue for Peco is the tooling used to thread the rail into the chairs on the sleepers. This is made to a 3' length for flexitrack and holds the appropriate amount of sleeper bases in place for the rail to be drawn through. It's about 20 years since I visited Peco so I don't recall whether  the rail gets cut before or after it is threaded through the sleeper base.

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HI,

 

To be honest this thread is just going round and round in circles. SO THIS WILL BE MY LAST POST ON THIS THREAD as I already spend 20hrs doing EMGS stores, Voluntary. I mean come on if you do more than 16hrs work the Goverment class it as a JOB and it would be nice to have a life, dispite what some members/non members think!!!!

 

TRACK LENGTH 

  YES it could be cut to any length we want. Our own rail that we sell in the stores is cut to what ever length i ask- HOWEVER to have the 700mm plus size that people have mentioned would mean Peco cutting an NON STANDARD SIZE.

The same is to be said for the track base as it comes in one length, 1yd. To have anything less would mean paying someone to sit and cut the track base into the small lengths, whos going to pay this cost?? again the member who will be buying it.

 

which means that peco will have to guess how many would be needed to make up X amount of track and having some left over would be classed as dead money as its tied up in rail. Yes it would only be small amount but in buniess everything has to be accounted for.

 

POSTING

AGAIN having the 700mm plus length would mean having a NON STANDARD size box which would have to be specially made for the EMGS, how many boxes would be needed?, whos going to cover the cost of these non standard items that techincally are for one customer?? how is this extra cost going to come from?? yes a price increase on the end product. The 700mm plus is still too long for the Post office white box which gives the best cost on the postage so either way its going to cost more.

 

All of the above factors were taken in to account when the decision was made to have the track made and TO KEEP THE PRICE DOWN it was decided to keep things as easy as possible and use as much as we could of off the shelf items at Peco.

 

As ive said before, if you want change then put up the 5 figure sum to have the track desgined, Tooling made, test moulding and the the final product and get your own track done.

 

This may be seen as unprofssional to comment in this way but as I said its going round in circles and i have better things to do.

 

Thanks

 

 

 

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Quite. 

 

We seem to be very good on this site at expending far too much energy on fantasy business running without knowing all the facts. Various people have asked questions which were reasonable the first time around. Here we've been fortunate to have Simon here to explain why we can't get it in shops, and why it has to be 3' long, etc. I can quite understand him not wanting to go round and round answering the same old questions. 

 

Simon mentioned a 5 figure sum to re-tool Peco for a different track length - if anyone wants to send that 5 figure sum to me, along with their track, I'd be quite happy to get out the track cutters and send them back some shorter pieces. 

Edited by sharris
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Quite. 

 

We seem to be very good on this site at expending far too much energy on fantasy business running without knowing all the facts. Various people have asked questions which were reasonable the first time around. Here we've been fortunate to have Simon here to explain why we can't get it in shops, and why it has to be 3' long, etc. I can quite understand him not wanting to go round and round answering the same old questions. 

 

Simon mentioned a 5 figure sum to re-tool Peco for a different track length - if anyone wants to send that 5 figure sum to me, along with their track, I'd be quite happy to get out the track cutters and send them back some shorter pieces. 

 

 

I am an EM Gauge Society Member so to a certain degree side with the society's stance, however I feel sometimes the information given earlier could have been a bit clearer rather than being answered fully after 3 or 4 attempts

 

There was a few suggestions from both members and non members that it may be financially advantageous to the society if certain were made available to the public, I think it was the third(official) attempt at answering the question, where a clear statement was made that it would jeopardize the societies charitable status. Clearly an end of statement explaining why it could not be done, the comments would not have gone on so long if this information was given in the first reply

 

The discussion about the size stems from post numbered 398 where said it would cost an arm and leg to post a 36" length of track to the group who would be representing the society at the Stevenage show. As a EMGS member I would have thought that if a different carrier (Hermes) was used, the cost of posting a yard of track + the turnout would be about the same as a Royal Mail small packet (the reply hinted at a turnout and small piece of track was being sent to the team representing the society at the show anyway)

 

For me as a member a cost of far more would be acceptable, to both show existing members the new items and would be a useful recruiting tool for the society. I accept the Society is cost conscious, however after a five figure investment I would have thought a few £'s spent of additional publicity would have been well justified, and given those manning the stand a superb message to tell

 

Perhaps the chat went off at a tangent, with some contributors wanting to offer a solution to the posters claim about extortionate postal costs, but that's the way the threads evolve on forums.  

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Something seems to have got lost in translation.

 

If the new track is being shown at an exhibition, why would they need a full yard length of it? A yard length of anything is an inconvenient thing to have on a demo stand -- you can't easily pick it up and hand it to someone to show them.

 

Martin.

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...   and it goes on ...and on ...and on ...and on .

 

I thought I was pedantic but reviewing the last few pages it would seem I have a long way to go.

 

P

Edited by Porcy Mane

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I am an EM Gauge Society Member so to a certain degree side with the society's stance, however I feel sometimes the information given earlier could have been a bit clearer rather than being answered fully after 3 or 4 attempts

 

There was a few suggestions from both members and non members that it may be financially advantageous to the society if certain were made available to the public, I think it was the third(official) attempt at answering the question, where a clear statement was made that it would jeopardize the societies charitable status. Clearly an end of statement explaining why it could not be done, the comments would not have gone on so long if this information was given in the first reply

 

The discussion about the size stems from post numbered 398 where said it would cost an arm and leg to post a 36" length of track to the group who would be representing the society at the Stevenage show. As a EMGS member I would have thought that if a different carrier (Hermes) was used, the cost of posting a yard of track + the turnout would be about the same as a Royal Mail small packet (the reply hinted at a turnout and small piece of track was being sent to the team representing the society at the show anyway)

 

For me as a member a cost of far more would be acceptable, to both show existing members the new items and would be a useful recruiting tool for the society. I accept the Society is cost conscious, however after a five figure investment I would have thought a few £'s spent of additional publicity would have been well justified, and given those manning the stand a superb message to tell

 

Perhaps the chat went off at a tangent, with some contributors wanting to offer a solution to the posters claim about extortionate postal costs, but that's the way the threads evolve on forums.  

 

Right John,

 

I'm gettinga bit sick of having to repeat my self over and over.

 

So to address some of your points.

 

1) It took 3 attemts to answer as people didn't read what was put the first time and the same for the second time. Its really not anybodys business why we aren't selling to shops. Do people go and ask Bachmann and Hornby why they don't sell in certain shops........no they don't so why is it any differnace for the EMGS

 

2) Ive alredy said why Hermes isn't going to be used but yet again PEOPLE DON'T READ!!!!! THEY LOST a £300 order so I'm not giving them the chance to loose anything else. They are still arguing about it saying that its our fault it went missing.

  Yes people have been helpful in suggesting other ways of posting but there are condiitons that have to be met and one carrier approached would involve a 20 mile round trip to drop the parcels off. Whos paying for my time that I have to take off work to do that??????

 

3) Again not that its any ones buisness but seeing as your all really wanting to know a point and a small section of the track, cut to the size of a 60ft panel, has been psoetd down so that it will be on the table at the Stevenage show and the South hampton show. TO do that is cost £4.68 to cover the value of the parcel and to provide tracking incase it goes for a walk. that is for a show. ITS NOT BEING DONE FOR ORDERS WHEN THE TRACK IS ON SALE.

 

If your not happy with the way things are done or want things changing then stand up at the next AGM and become more involved with the running of the society or take the Trade officers roles on and do the job.

 

I would like to take this oppertunity for all of those who are clikcing on the various rates you keep givning the post im putting up.

Edited by Mr.S.corn78
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Jon

*elephants are easy to pile high, but difficult to sell cheap, its why you never see them in Hattons adverts :blum:

 

But I have seen mammoth sales in the High Street, but I agree not at Hattons (AM)

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I seriously doubt the Society directors failed to discuss most, if not all, of the points that folks have brought up in this thread. So...

 

A) If you are a Society member, and have concerns, contact the board to discuss.

 

C) if you are a member, and plan to buy the track, contact the sales person direct, to discuss what your postage options might be.

 

B) if you are not a member, and have no intent on joining (whether you model in EM or not), than really, you have no say, so why comment on here?

 

Just my thoughts.

 

Jim F

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Cutting the rail is indeed not the issue. The rail (technically a wire) is supplied to Peco in very long lengths (as reels).

 

The issue for Peco is the tooling used to thread the rail into the chairs on the sleepers. This is made to a 3' length for flexitrack and holds the appropriate amount of sleeper bases in place for the rail to be drawn through. It's about 20 years since I visited Peco so I don't recall whether  the rail gets cut before or after it is threaded through the sleeper base.

 

I doubt PECO can be using the same 'tool' to hold the track bases when they make up track panels because 1) the number of sleepers per unit of length is different from their old flexitrack, and 2) the width between the rails and therefore presumably the length of the sleepers is different, therefore part of the 5 figure tooling cost that has been mentioned is to make a new one. It also occurs to me that since the sleepers are a different length then they won't go in the existing PECO boxes either, so some of the setup cost will be accounted for a new box as well.

 

Either way it appears that the opportunity has been missed, its too late to change because the tools have already been made, and therefore its being done the way it has always been done, because that's the way it has always been done.

 

I certainly didn't intend to upset a volunteer who is putting a great deal of personal time into hopefully making it a success, and for that I apologise. 

 

Jon

Edited by jonhall

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Something seems to have got lost in translation.

 

If the new track is being shown at an exhibition, why would they need a full yard length of it? A yard length of anything is an inconvenient thing to have on a demo stand -- you can't easily pick it up and hand it to someone to show them.

 

Martin.

 

 

Martin

 

I do have a little experience with model railway sales, but all my working life has been involved in selling. I accept seeing a short length of track should be sufficient but somehow the buying public actually likes seeing the whole thing they are buying and in some instances seem underwhelmed if shown part of something.

 

No doubt someone into physiology will be able to explain why. And as it happens, I have had experience of demonstrating a prototype 3D printed short length length of track, all be it in a different gauge 

Edited by hayfield

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I seriously doubt the Society directors failed to discuss most, if not all, of the points that folks have brought up in this thread. So...

Nice pun. I'll give it 9/10.

 

Are we on track for further examples?

 

P

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Well I try to steer clear of the controversial stuff here on RMWeb because it's only playing trains at the end of the day. Suffice to say I was on the EMGS stand at Stevenage - we had a short length of flex-track and the 3-D printed pre-production point, which is lovely, and there was a very great deal of interest. No-one complained that we didn't have a longer piece of track to play with, just genuine interest and enthusiasm, and a lot of people looking forward to the release, so good on the EMGS for making the investment say I....

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I was one of those people who stopped by the stand to have a look at it - it did look very nice, and handling a section was more convenient than having to wield a yard of the stuff for closer inspection. One thing I would suggest for the next exhibition though is using an end of panel instead of mid-panel section to demonstrate the heavier end panel timbering.

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There had better be an example of this track at Stafford in a few weeks time or I will be firing a strong missive to the far sighted, pro-active committee of the society who, in their spare time, are doing their best to further EM gauge modelling and provide a service to us unworthy members, whilst getting flagellated for their efforts, and I shall demand a full refund of my wasted Ryanair fare, (although it could be worse, I could be travelling all the way from Lancashire!).

 

Mike.

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There had better be an example of this track at Stafford in a few weeks time or I will be firing a strong missive to the far sighted, pro-active committee of the society who, in their spare time, are doing their best to further EM gauge modelling and provide a service to us unworthy members, whilst getting flagellated for their efforts, and I shall demand a full refund of my wasted Ryanair fare, (although it could be worse, I could be travelling all the way from Lancashire!).

 

Mike.

 

But will you be flagellated with a 1 metre length or a shorter yet easier to handle length that will fit more conveniently in your tube? (hence in the overhead locker)

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But will you be flagellated with a 1 metre length or a shorter yet easier to handle length that will fit more conveniently in your tube? (hence in the overhead locker)

 

It don't really matter, I shall bring a pair of track cutters and cut it half anyway, as I only model in EM, the difference between 45' and 60' panels is lost on me, the track gauge is wrong anyway.

 

Mike.

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There is a nice piece about the track in the EMGS newsletter that plopped through my letterbox today, hinting that if we buy enough of the stuff they may consider increasing the range to include a crossing or slip. EMGS, you are such a tease :)

 

There is a bit of an inconsistency between the information in the article and here as the article suggests there are only 2.5 panels per length of track instead of Simon's 3.5.

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There is a nice piece about the track in the EMGS newsletter that plopped through my letterbox today, hinting that if we buy enough of the stuff they may consider increasing the range to include a crossing or slip. EMGS, you are such a tease :)

 

There is a bit of an inconsistency between the information in the article and here as the article suggests there are only 2.5 panels per length of track instead of Simon's 3.5.

 

Reading through the newsletter is a real tease, these points are a completely different product to the PECO bullhead points, which in themselves I thought were a significant leap forward, but the EM points take things to another level. The footprint mirrors the EMGS B6 points and have a sleeper base moulding which has been developed from scratch. The tie bar looks to be different to that shown in the photos of the samples and is closer to a prototype than anything seen previously.

 

It's also clear that these points are an EMGS product produced by PECO, not a PECO product. Even if they wanted to, these couldn't be sold through the general trade unless the EMGS decided to do so. With a margin for the distribution channels to absorb, the price would have to be significantly higher so the EMGS board don't appear to consider this to be viable and as the majority of the demand will be from members anyway, keeping things in house seems to be the most sensible way. If you're modelling in EM, why wouldn't you be a member anyway?

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It's also clear that these points are an EMGS product produced by PECO, not a PECO product. Even if they wanted to, these couldn't be sold through the general trade unless the EMGS decided to do so. With a margin for the distribution channels to absorb, the price would have to be significantly higher so the EMGS board don't appear to consider this to be viable and as the majority of the demand will be from members anyway, keeping things in house seems to be the most sensible way. If you're modelling in EM, why wouldn't you be a member anyway?

 

Elsewhere in the Newsletter it reports that there have been 44 new members since the last Newsletter.

 

So that's a really positive move for the EMGS which can only be coming from the trackwork initiative. 

 

Cheers

Flymo

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If all the transport arrangements go to plan we should have the pre-production point sample and a section of track available for close inspection at the upcoming Doncaster show on the EMGS demonstration stand.

 

I am looking forward to seeing it myself.

Edited by t-b-g

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Going off-topic briefly, congratulations to EMGS for getting out the new Version 3.0 of the EMGS Manual on CD with the latest newsletter. Having hosted visitors all weekend, I've not had a chance to peruse it yet. But one thing occurs to me - would it be an idea to have it available as a download from a secure area of the website, or distributed (maybe for a small fee since they're more pricey than CDs) on a thumb-drive as CD/DVD readers are getting to be a bit of an optional extra in a lot of small PCs and laptops these days? 

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 If you're modelling in EM, why wouldn't you be a member anyway?

 

playing devils advocate but is there a members group for oo if you model in oo as youre saying if youre modelling in EM why wouldn't you be a member of the EMGS?  I don't think there is.

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